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cats16
Half-elven
Dec 22 2014, 3:09am
Post #1 of 109
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**'The Fellowship of the Ring' Discussion, Chapter Three: Three is Company; Part I: Farewell to Home, Hello to Adventure**
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‘The Fellowship of the Ring’ Discussion, Chapter Three: Three is Company
Welcome, welcome, and thrice welcome to all joining our Fellowship of the Room!
Anyone interested in this discussion is highly encouraged to pull up a chair, say hello, and share your thoughts. If you’ve read the chapter, you’re qualified—most of us here aren’t Tolkien scholars, and new perspectives continually add new ingredients to the intellectual stew of the Reading Room.
So, without any further decorum, let us begin!
Last week’s chapter saw Frodo discover that his magic ring is the One Ring to Rule Them All. And, after additional detail involving the Ring and its threat to Frodo, we learn that Frodo must leave the Shire.
Upon reading Chapter 3 this time around, I gained a greater sense of JRRT wandering as a writer, still working to find the story as it leaves the setting of the novel’s opening—the Shire. I’ll briefly give a synopsis of the plot, for reference:
· Gandalf urges Frodo to leave the Shire “soon”; Frodo and Bilbo’s birthday becomes the agreed-upon date of departure, with Rivendell as the destination.
· Word spreads in the Shire that Frodo plans to leave for Buckland, and has sold Bag End to the SBs.
· Gandalf leaves on business to the South near the end of June.
· After preparations, September 22nd arrives and Frodo celebrates his and Bilbo’s birthday; Gandalf does not come to the Shire.
· Frodo leaves the Shire quietly the following night.
· After peaceful walking, the hobbits come across a Black Rider on the road.
· Further down the Road approaching Woodhall, another encounter with a Black Rider; the sounds of approaching Elves send the Shadow into the night.
· They meet the company of Gildor Inglorion and are invited to their wood dwelling for the night.
· While the others rest after food and song, Frodo talks to Gildor about the threats he faces and looks for advice; Gildor wishes him well and sends messages across the lands on Frodo’s behalf.
My aim is to move chronologically through the chapter with each thread and its themes, although of course PLEASE do not hesitate to bring up any question/topic at any time.
December 21st: Farewell to Home, Hello to Adventure
December 24th: “Sniffing Riders with Invisible Noses”
December 27th: “Hail, Elf Friend!”
December 30th: Final remarks/Things I’ve Forgotten
Two posts forthcoming! Feel free to answer as much/little as you desire. I hope at the least I can serve as a serviceable guide this week. 
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
(This post was edited by cats16 on Dec 22 2014, 3:16am)
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cats16
Half-elven
Dec 22 2014, 3:11am
Post #2 of 109
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The chapter begins with Frodo and Gandalf agreeing upon the conditions of Frodo’s departure from the Shire.
1. Do you feel that Frodo would have been better off leaving now, rather than waiting until Autumn?
2. Why did Gandalf not feel the need to urge Frodo to leave sooner than September 22nd, if he knew already at this point that “[the Road] will grow worse as the year fails,” and was “getting very anxious”? Is this a mistake on his part?
Frodo seems to be facing a dilemma, and how to proceed into the unknown journey ahead.
“It [his 50th birthday] seemed somehow the proper day on which to set out and follow him [Bilbo]. Following Bilbo was uppermost in his mind, and the one thing that made the thought of leaving bearable. He thought as little as possible about the Ring, and where it might lead him in the end. But he did not tell all his thoughts to Gandalf. What the Wizard guessed was always difficult to tell.”
3. Are these “thoughts” our first indication of any effect the Ring an effect on Frodo?
4. Do you sense any uncertainty on Tolkien’s part in the direction of the plot? What do you make of Frodo’s reluctance to leave?
5. What similarities/differences do you see here between a fifty-year old Frodo and fifty-year old Bilbo?
They come to an agreement that Frodo shall go “towards danger; but not too rashly, nor too straight,” with Rivendell being the destination.
6. What are your thoughts of this plan? What do you make of Gandalf’s vague responses throughout this exchange?
7. Was it unnecessary for Gandalf to refer to the Cracks of Doom? Why do you think he did?
And all of a sudden, we find out that Frodo has sold Bag End to the Sackville-Bagginses!
8. Any thoughts on Tolkien’s note on Otho, in that he died at “the ripe but disappointed age of 102”? What was he disappointed about, exactly?
9. Why do you think Frodo actually sold Bag End to the SBs? Were there no other interested relatives? Was that the only way to not draw attention to his departure?
He plans to move to Buckland, and has already (with Merry’s help) bought at small house at Crickhollow.
10. Do you believe that Frodo lost much of his wealth in this endeavor?
Gandalf stays in the Shire for another two months. He leaves abruptly, worrying about news he’s heard from other realms.
11. What news could he have learned? How do you think he got the message?
12. Why did Gandalf not urge Frodo to leave for Buckland, given that he was “very anxious” before he left?
13. Do you have any thoughts on his increased emphasis that Frodo does NOT use the Ring?
Autumn passes, and the hobbits celebrate Frodo and Bilbo’s birthdays without any word of Gandalf’s whereabouts.
14. Why was Sam not included in the birthday feast?
Lobelia and Lotho arrive the next morning, ready to take over Bag End. Frodo decides to wait for Gandalf until nightfall, and will leave without him by foot.
15. Do you possess any sympathy towards Lobelia’s 77+ year cause?
Frodo overhears the Gaffer answering questions from an unidentified stranger asking about his whereabouts.
16. Why do you think the stranger doesn’t knock on the front door of Bag End? Knowing how the rest of this chapter unfolds, why was the Black Rider not more aggressive here?
17. What are your thoughts on Frodo’s personal journey thus far, as he waves good-bye to Hobbiton?
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
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cats16
Half-elven
Dec 22 2014, 3:15am
Post #3 of 109
(4184 views)
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Soon after, the three hobbits depart Hobbiton and begin their journey West. The first night goes by quite uneventfully, as Pippin convinces them to rest for the night.
1. Any remarks on how the journey begins? Are there any literary comparisons to be made here?
2. What are your thoughts on Sam’s “felt-bag” fashioned into a hat? Is there any other reference to this elsewhere in the book?
3. What are the class dynamics at work here between Frodo, Sam and Pippin? Do they appear any different from the beginning of the novel? Does Sam move upward, given his attachment to Frodo?
I must ask: 4. Why the inclusion of the Fantastic Mr. Fox? Does Tolkien seem adrift tonally at this point in the chapter? Do those with knowledge of HoME know of anything of note in this episode?
They wake up the next morning and leisurely make their way towards Woody End.
5. Despite the lack of ‘action’ here, are there any insights on character you would like to share?
6. What are your thoughts on Frodo’s sudden outburst of Bilbo’s verse? Was he unconsciously prompted by Pippin’s remark that “the Road goes on for ever”?
Frodo is then reminded of Bilbo, before he left the Shire. Below is a quote I found particularly interesting:
“He used often to say there was only one Road; that it was like a great river: its springs were at every doorstep, and every path was its tributary.”
7. What might JRRT be saying here, either of ‘Story’ (as a.s. mentioned last week), or about adventures/life experiences in general? Other interpretations you found while reading this?
8. What might be gleaned from this scene, and how Frodo seems to channel Bilbo—whether by direct quote or paraphrase—on multiple occasions?
That's all I have for today. Thank you, and I look forward to the discussion!
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
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Kim
Valinor
Dec 22 2014, 4:47am
Post #4 of 109
(4170 views)
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The chapter begins with Frodo and Gandalf agreeing upon the conditions of Frodo’s departure from the Shire.
1. Do you feel that Frodo would have been better off leaving now, rather than waiting until Autumn? Yes, I was a bit surprised he waited so long, both because he and Gandalf discovered that he had the One Ring, and because presumably it would be easier to travel in summer when the weather was good.
2. Why did Gandalf not feel the need to urge Frodo to leave sooner than September 22nd, if he knew already at this point that “[the Road] will grow worse as the year fails,” and was “getting very anxious”? Is this a mistake on his part? This does seem to be a mistake, not sure why he wouldn't have pushed Frodo to move more quickly.
Frodo seems to be facing a dilemma, and how to proceed into the unknown journey ahead.
“It [his 50th birthday] seemed somehow the proper day on which to set out and follow him [Bilbo]. Following Bilbo was uppermost in his mind, and the one thing that made the thought of leaving bearable. He thought as little as possible about the Ring, and where it might lead him in the end. But he did not tell all his thoughts to Gandalf. What the Wizard guessed was always difficult to tell.”
3. Are these “thoughts” our first indication of any effect the Ring an effect on Frodo? It seems like it's more that he doesn't know where the adventure might take him, and it seems more dangerous than Bilbo's.
4. Do you sense any uncertainty on Tolkien’s part in the direction of the plot? What do you make of Frodo’s reluctance to leave?
5. What similarities/differences do you see here between a fifty-year old Frodo and fifty-year old Bilbo? Well, Frodo does seem more apt to seek out adventure, although when faced with actually going, he does have some reluctance (maybe the Baggins in him?)
They come to an agreement that Frodo shall go “towards danger; but not too rashly, nor too straight,” with Rivendell being the destination.
6. What are your thoughts of this plan? What do you make of Gandalf’s vague responses throughout this exchange? I thought it was a bit odd that Gandalf seemed to be leaving it up to Frodo to decide what to do instead of helping him decide - after all, Gandalf has more experience in the wide world, especially since this has now become such an important quest.
7. Was it unnecessary for Gandalf to refer to the Cracks of Doom? Why do you think he did? Keeping the end game in sight?
And all of a sudden, we find out that Frodo has sold Bag End to the Sackville-Bagginses!
8. Any thoughts on Tolkien’s note on Otho, in that he died at “the ripe but disappointed age of 102”? What was he disappointed about, exactly? Presumably, that he never got Bag End.
9. Why do you think Frodo actually sold Bag End to the SBs? Were there no other interested relatives? Was that the only way to not draw attention to his departure? This was kind of a surprise considering their history with Bilbo, but it may have been the fastest way to move forward with his plan since he knew they wanted it.
He plans to move to Buckland, and has already (with Merry’s help) bought at small house at Crickhollow.
10. Do you believe that Frodo lost much of his wealth in this endeavor? Hmmm, I don't know, although since he didn't really think he'd be coming back, probably didn't need much left anyways.
Gandalf stays in the Shire for another two months. He leaves abruptly, worrying about news he’s heard from other realms.
11. What news could he have learned? How do you think he got the message? Moth? Maybe Radagast was looking for him?
12. Why did Gandalf not urge Frodo to leave for Buckland, given that he was “very anxious” before he left? Maybe he was distracted by what was happening outside the Shire?
13. Do you have any thoughts on his increased emphasis that Frodo does NOT use the Ring? Hmmm, now that I think about it, maybe he'd heard the Black Riders were about and knew it would attract them.
Autumn passes, and the hobbits celebrate Frodo and Bilbo’s birthdays without any word of Gandalf’s whereabouts.
14. Why was Sam not included in the birthday feast? Because he's a servant? Or maybe he's saying goodbye to his family.
Lobelia and Lotho arrive the next morning, ready to take over Bag End. Frodo decides to wait for Gandalf until nightfall, and will leave without him by foot.
15. Do you possess any sympathy towards Lobelia’s 77+ year cause? No. She's such an unpleasant person, and it's not hers for the taking.
Frodo overhears the Gaffer answering questions from an unidentified stranger asking about his whereabouts.
16. Why do you think the stranger doesn’t knock on the front door of Bag End? Knowing how the rest of this chapter unfolds, why was the Black Rider not more aggressive here? Good question!
17. What are your thoughts on Frodo’s personal journey thus far, as he waves good-bye to Hobbiton? It's really interesting to compare this to the movie, where everything happens so quickly and there's really no thought for what he'll be leaving behind.
Thanks Cats! On to Part 2.
#OneLastTime
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Kim
Valinor
Dec 22 2014, 4:58am
Post #5 of 109
(4161 views)
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Soon after, the three hobbits depart Hobbiton and begin their journey West. The first night goes by quite uneventfully, as Pippin convinces them to rest for the night. 1. Any remarks on how the journey begins? Are there any literary comparisons to be made here? It's all very well planned and thought out, not like Bilbo's! 2. What are your thoughts on Sam’s “felt-bag” fashioned into a hat? Is there any other reference to this elsewhere in the book? I thought this was kind of funny, almost goofy. Don't know if it appears later. 3. What are the class dynamics at work here between Frodo, Sam and Pippin? Do they appear any different from the beginning of the novel? Does Sam move upward, given his attachment to Frodo? I was a little taken aback when Pippin basically orders Sam to make breakfast, but I guess that's his "station", right? I must ask: 4. Why the inclusion of the Fantastic Mr. Fox? Does Tolkien seem adrift tonally at this point in the chapter? Do those with knowledge of HoME know of anything of note in this episode? I think I'll let BlackFox speak to this appearance by her brethren.  They wake up the next morning and leisurely make their way towards Woody End. 5. Despite the lack of ‘action’ here, are there any insights on character you would like to share? see above re Pippin 6. What are your thoughts on Frodo’s sudden outburst of Bilbo’s verse? Was he unconsciously prompted by Pippin’s remark that “the Road goes on for ever”? Yes, that, and just in general as he's finally starting his journey and it fits quite well. Frodo is then reminded of Bilbo, before he left the Shire. Below is a quote I found particularly interesting: “He used often to say there was only one Road; that it was like a great river: its springs were at every doorstep, and every path was its tributary.” 7. What might JRRT be saying here, either of ‘Story’ (as a.s. mentioned last week), or about adventures/life experiences in general? Other interpretations you found while reading this? There's opportunity for adventure everywhere, if you just choose to go with it. 8. What might be gleaned from this scene, and how Frodo seems to channel Bilbo—whether by direct quote or paraphrase—on multiple occasions? After years of living with Bilbo and hearing his stories, he's finally starting his own. That's all I have for today. Thank you, and I look forward to the discussion!
Thanks again Cats! Glad I was able to get some responses in before another crazy week starts. Looking forward to the rest, although I must say, it's kind of unfair that you get 2 weeks to cover this chapter when I only had one for Chapter 2, with all it's backstory and huge revelations! Luckily, folks here seem to take a prompt and run with it! 
#OneLastTime
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Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
Dec 22 2014, 6:34am
Post #6 of 109
(4172 views)
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I'm super excited to be off work for two weeks! Now I can participate in the Reading Room!
1. Do you feel that Frodo would have been better off leaving now, rather than waiting until Autumn?
Of course!
2. Why did Gandalf not feel the need to urge Frodo to leave sooner than September 22nd, if he knew already at this point that “[the Road] will grow worse as the year fails,” and was “getting very anxious”? Is this a mistake on his part?
Gandalf guides, he does not force anyone to do anything. That being said, it's a bit surprising that he doesn't urge Frodo to leave immediately given the dire nature of the situation. Still, he is sympathetic toward Frodo and doesn't know that the Nine have crossed Anduin yet.
4. Do you sense any uncertainty on Tolkien’s part in the direction of the plot? What do you make of Frodo’s reluctance to leave?
Frodo's reluctance to leave is natural. I always had faith in Tolkien that he knew where he was going, even if I couldn't always follow.
5. What similarities/differences do you see here between a fifty-year old Frodo and fifty-year old Bilbo?
6. What are your thoughts of this plan? What do you make of Gandalf’s vague responses throughout this exchange?
The only similarities I see between Frodo and Bilbo are their age, their latent adventuresome spirits, and their uncharacteristic (for a hobbit) acquiescence (sp?) to going on a quest. Some big differences are that Bilbo would be following 13 dwarves and Gandalf on his journey, whereas Frodo set out with only Sam as a companion and himself as leader.
7. Was it unnecessary for Gandalf to refer to the Cracks of Doom? Why do you think he did?
Worst-case scenario. It's good to have that in the back of one's mind.
And all of a sudden, we find out that Frodo has sold Bag End to the Sackville-Bagginses!
8. Any thoughts on Tolkien’s note on Otho, in that he died at “the ripe but disappointed age of 102”? What was he disappointed about, exactly?
As Kim said, not getting Bag End!
Where's Frodo?
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Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
Dec 22 2014, 6:49am
Post #7 of 109
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Why, NE Brigand Can Find That Post For You!
2. What are your thoughts on Sam’s “felt-bag” fashioned into a hat? Is there any other reference to this elsewhere in the book?
I asked this question in our last discussion of this chapter (or maybe the one before that) and I believe it was Revie who knew the answer: it was an inside joke about C.S. Lewis' hat! I couldn't find the post in a quick search, so here is a quote about it from www.hatrack.com:
Some particularly funny stories related to C.S. Lewis' appearance had to do with a felt hat that he often wore. Clifford Morris tells of a time when Lewis lost this hat on a picnic. Several months later, they walked by that same spot and found the hat under a bush being used as a home by field mice. Lewis retrieved the hat and was seen wearing it many times after that. This same hat spent a week under the seat of Morris' car. Major Lewis, C.S. Lewis' brother, gives this humorous story about the famous hat: It is said that Jack once took a guest for an early morning walk on the Magdalen College grounds…after a very wet night. Presently the guest brought his attention to a curious lump of cloth hanging on a bush. "That looks like my hat," said Jack; then, joyfully, "It is my hat." And, clapping the sodden mass on his head, he continued his walk (322).
I must ask: 4. Why the inclusion of the Fantastic Mr. Fox? Does Tolkien seem adrift tonally at this point in the chapter? Do those with knowledge of HoME know of anything of note in this episode?
All I'll say is that, just as the fox never learns anything more about the hobbits' journey, we never learn anything more about the fox.
That's all I have for today. Thank you, and I look forward to the discussion!
Thank YOU! I'm looking forward to more discussion as well!
Where's Frodo?
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sador
Half-elven
Dec 22 2014, 7:34am
Post #8 of 109
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this looks like a discussion from the old times!
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The days of multiple threads with many questions. The difference is that this time, all discussion is on one thread. It makes for a more impressive thread (I remember twelve-posts discussions which didn't gather a hundred response all together); the only downside is for people who are used to read in Flat Mode - for them this kind of thread is very difficult.
On to your questions!
1. Do you feel that Frodo would have been better off leaving now, rather than waiting until Autumn?
Intuitevely, of course.
But there seems to be some Providence premeating this book - and cerainly, while he would have avoided the whole detour of the Old Forest and knife at Weathertop, he might well have missed Gildor's blessing, and surely the Barrow-swords; also the Black Riders would still be at large once the Ring set out of Rivendell, Saruman's treachery would probably be unexposed, Aragorn would be away on some business of his own (as he says in Strider).
I'm sure the author would have managed to get Frodo out of that kind of perdicament, too, but I'm not sure he would be "better off".
2. Why did Gandalf not feel the need to urge Frodo to leave sooner than September 22nd, if he knew already at this point that “[the Road] will grow worse as the year fails,” and was “getting very anxious”? Is this a mistake on his part?
Gandalf never seems to be in a hurry, does he?
But attempting to give a rational explanation - he needed to gather news, and was hoping to be back on time. Frodo's birthday was only the very latest time in case nothing happens to require more urgency.
On the other hand, it is a very short time for a reasonably "secret" disappearance.
3. Are these “thoughts” our first indication of any effect the Ring an effect on Frodo?
No. As a matter of fact, the author denies it in the line you've quoted. And the Ring would probably be served better by an unprepared flight.
But setting out is something you need to build up. And those feelings for Bilbo Frodo has - the surely are not Ring-generated.
4. Do you sense any uncertainty on Tolkien’s part in the direction of the plot? What do you make of Frodo’s reluctance to leave?
No. There was uncertainty on the first writing, of course - but all traces of it have been skilfully erased.
It is to Rembrethil's credit that he showed Tolkien's initial uncertainty so well - but Tolkien did a very good job of rewiting afterwards. The plot rambles, because we need to get familiar with hobbits and the world they inhabit. Cut straight to Book II, and few readers (as opposed to filmgoers) will really care.
5. What similarities/differences do you see here between a fifty-year old Frodo and fifty-year old Bilbo?
Tolkien tries very hard to set up a dichotomy like the Baggins-Took one Bilbo had, but it's not quite similar. This is more a case of prevarication.
6. What are your thoughts of this plan? What do you make of Gandalf’s vague responses throughout this exchange?
Gandalf realises Frodo needs to grow, before he can assume the Quest.
Which incidentally, answers a.s. argument last week, that Frodo's being unable to throw the Ring into his hearth determined his failure at the Sammath Naur. Frodo couldn't get to Mount Doom without growing in strength and stature considerably, after which it would be a completely different ball game.
7. Was it unnecessary for Gandalf to refer to the Cracks of Doom? Why do you think he did?
It actually erves to calm Frodo, and remind that it is not yet his purpose.
8. Any thoughts on Tolkien’s note on Otho, in that he died at “the ripe but disappointed age of 102”? What was he disappointed about, exactly?
I find it very amusing. And I think calling an old person "ripe" is quite an affront, isn't it?
Tolkien surely implies that he was disappointed about failing to gain Bag End. It portrays Otho as quite a monomaniac - but it might be understanable considering his status as an aspirant to nobility, in a family in which the money comes from the wife's family (see Farmer Cotton about Lotho's wealth in The Scouring of the Shire), and the social prospects from the husband's.
9. Why do you think Frodo actually sold Bag End to the SBs? Were there no other interested relatives? Was that the only way to not draw attention to his departure?
Well, it clearly did draw attention!
I guess the idea was to cause enough talk about speculating why he left, rather than where to.
But also it would be quite difficult, and probably unprecedented, to sell a family mansion to anybody out of the family.
And Frodo did feel his family ties and obligations (as he said about Lotho "it is high time the family dealt with him" - no external force, of course!) - after all, the Baggins part was the least aristocratic one in his upbringing.
10. Do you believe that Frodo lost much of his wealth in this endeavor?
I don't think Tolkien provides us with any clue one way or the other. A hobbit's means are his own business - which does not prevent neighbourhood tavern gossip, of course.
11. What news could he have learned? How do you think he got the message?
At the Council he said he learned about war and defeat in Gondor, and the Black Shadow.
How? Some friendly bird, or Gildor's folk, or the stray walking tree - whoever.
12. Why did Gandalf not urge Frodo to leave for Buckland, given that he was “very anxious” before he left?
That would immediately call attention to the Shire. And apparently, he did not know that Gollum told Sauron that name.
13. Do you have any thoughts on his increased emphasis that Frodo does NOT use the Ring?
As Book I is pretty much like The Hobbit in tone and picaresque-like plot (at least until Weathertop), the distinction between the previous book, in which the ring was useful, and the present in which it (The Ring) was dangerous, must be emphasised.
14. Why was Sam not included in the birthday feast?
I never noticed he wasn't, untill now. Thank you!
He probably was there, but didn't count as being of an inferior class. Also, Frodo's concern is contrasted with the four young hobbits' seeming oblivion - and Sam is in neither party. (Of course, Folco is the only one who is clueless as to whatever's going on - but the reader does not know that yet!)
15. Do you possess any sympathy towards Lobelia’s 77+ year cause?
She didn't have one. Otho did, and Lotho too - but she is a Bracegirdle.
On the other hand, any such long wait commands our sympathy.
16. Why do you think the stranger doesn’t knock on the front door of Bag End?
He wanted to make sure this is the right place.
Knowing how the rest of this chapter unfolds, why was the Black Rider not more aggressive here?
He didn't want to call too much attention to himself, and put Frodo on his guard.
As it was, the stratagem was entirely successful - Frodo didn't realise he was followed until the next morning (had any force been used down in the Southfarthing, he would for sure have known of it by now), and nearly delivered himself to the Rider voluntarily! To saynothing of there being really no further information to be pried out of the Gaffer.
Frodo was saved by sheer chance - coupled with Gadalf's warning to keep off the Road.
17. What are your thoughts on Frodo’s personal journey thus far, as he waves good-bye to Hobbiton?
It is truly a farewell. Next time he will be around, he will not be the same Frodo.
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sador
Half-elven
Dec 22 2014, 7:38am
Post #9 of 109
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Great to see you around again!
And seeing a post titled "WNEBCFTPFY" makes me feel a newbie again.
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Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
Dec 22 2014, 7:45am
Post #10 of 109
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Great to be here and to see you too, sador! I don't know how much NEB is around anymore, but I remember seeing that acronym (or something like it) when he was a great major source for finding and linking old discussions.
Where's Frodo?
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Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
Dec 22 2014, 8:04am
Post #11 of 109
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Even further back than I thought
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Just because I love the hat story, and I love TORn, and I love staying up late when I don't have to get up early, here is my post from 2007 (ye gods, seven years ago?!) in which I reference the earlier discussion (which I will leave to N.E.B. to find ) and link to Arevanye's blog, in which the story of "Jack's hat" appears.
Where's Frodo?
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sador
Half-elven
Dec 22 2014, 8:20am
Post #12 of 109
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1. Any remarks on how the journey begins? Are there any literary comparisons to be made here?
So far, it is a walking tour. A well-known genre - Fielding comes to mind.
2. What are your thoughts on Sam’s “felt-bag” fashioned into a hat? Is there any other reference to this elsewhere in the book?
Hmm... not that I remember. Is this a riddle?
I would guess not - I also expect that had the hat been prominent, it would have found it's way to Jackson's films. But Aragorn had a hat - and it really doesn't make sense for all the fellowship to go about bareheaded, exposed to the elements.
3. What are the class dynamics at work here between Frodo, Sam and Pippin? Do they appear any different from the beginning of the novel? Does Sam move upward, given his attachment to Frodo?
No, Sam does not seem on equal footing with his "betters" - not until Crickhollow, and even then not quite.
On the other hand, Pippin's ordering Sam around seems a bit of lazy fun - but with undertones of the class difference.
4. Why the inclusion of the Fantastic Mr. Fox? Does Tolkien seem adrift tonally at this point in the chapter? Do those with knowledge of HoME know of anything of note in this episode?
It's just a bit of fun - and as a matter of fact, it is Tolkien's usual omission of the fauna of Middle-earth which is noteworthy, given his interest is botany throughout the book. Had the fox been the rule rather than the exception, it would be natural and reasonable.
But as Finding Frodo mentioned NEB, here is a post by that long-missed RR great.
5. Despite the lack of ‘action’ here, are there any insights on character you would like to share?
Tolkien establishes Pippin as youthful and carefree, and Sam as deeply-rooted and afraid of change.
6. What are your thoughts on Frodo’s sudden outburst of Bilbo’s verse? Was he unconsciously prompted by Pippin’s remark that “the Road goes on for ever”?
For sure it was. It is also striking that Bilbo's version had "pursuing it with eager feet" while Frodo has "weary" - and he is sixty-one years younger than Bilbo was, on his very first adventure!
7. What might JRRT be saying here, either of ‘Story’ (as a.s. mentioned last week), or about adventures/life experiences in general? Other interpretations you found while reading this?
That's a running theme throughout the book; as is the song.
Tom Shippey discusses the Shire-poetry in great length (both in The Road to Middle-earth and Author of the Century). Highly recommended!
8. What might be gleaned from this scene, and how Frodo seems to channel Bilbo—whether by direct quote or paraphrase—on multiple occasions?
He seems already to be overburdened with the differences, rather than enheartened by the similarities between them.
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sador
Half-elven
Dec 22 2014, 8:25am
Post #13 of 109
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But there are few who can - as NEB does not post in the RR often now, unfortunately.
On the other hand, that acronym made it to Silverlode's TORn_dictionary!
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 22 2014, 11:06am
Post #14 of 109
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I certainly agree, this chapter throws more caltrops in the way of an impatient reader (adding to the Problems for Impatient Readers we were discussing re Chapter 1)- I think it is more conventional, when the Dire Peril has just been announced for the hero to spring up and meet it immediately. This was, of course what the Peter Jackson film did - the film bundles Frodo and Sam off as soon at the end of Chapter 2, effectively. Or, storytellers employ some device to force the hero on his or her way. For example - while you're off at the wizard's place receiving your infodump, Imperial Stormtroopers trash your house and murder your family. This both makes it imperitive to leave now, and severs any commitments for staying.
Or, maybe the hero has to get on with the adventure now, so urgently that There's Just No Time To Explain!!!!!
Instead of all that Frodo spends six months dithering, despite (as others have already pointed out) losing both the initiative and the best season in which to travel.
I do agree with the idea that Tolkien is finding his way into the tale - to a point. These early chapters were actually the ones he revised the most heavily (the whole processs being laid out for us in "Shadow of the Past" a volume of History of Mddle-earth, Christopher Tolkien's complilation of his father's draft versions). The book was always to start at Bag End with a party, but sometimes it was Bilbo's and sometimes the party was for Bilbo's heir (called Bungo at this point). In some versions, Bungo is off immediately, before learning much about the ring. So I think Frodo's delay at this point was something Tolkien put in deliberately. It isn't just Tolkien footling around enjoying the Shire & trying to decide what to do. On the other hand, I don't dismiss that theory entirely - I think it is common enough for writers to start something one way & stick to that, unable or unwilllng to change it in revision (this depends on the writer & his or her methods - e.g. Zadie Smith claims to be an extreme case)
One of the things Tolkien did in revision was to replace the very Bilbo-like Bungo with the much more introvert Frodo (INFP perhaps?). Handed a destiny or task far too big for him, he's going to do it, but he dithers, Hamlet-like. Part of it is that Frodo is that introverted kind of person, and he is nearly 50 : much younger, and in a Galaxy Far Away, Luke Skywalker iconically watches the double sunset in Star Wars, full of teenage ennui; knowing somehow that he is destined for great things; but, waiting for the unverse to get around to organizing them for him....(I recall the feeling well) Frodo, by complete contrast, wants "look down into that valley again" but knows that he must go. He must voluntarily give up all he already has - I think that is a noble and sad touch
Of course were Frodo the same age as young Skywaler, Gandalf might face different problems getting him to set out...
Gandalf is, as others have already commented, surprisingly patient given the direness of the situation. I agree that part of it is that Frodo is a Chosen One, and his instinctive choices are to be respected in case he is chanelling destiny, higher powers etc.
Gandalf says: "It may be your task to find the Cracks of Doom; but that Quest may be for others: I do not know." (Can Gandalf really believe this? How could Frodo pass the ring to someone else?)
Gandlaf also seems unnervingly willing to let Frodo choose the next steps:
"...you must go, or at least set out, either North, South, West or East..." (I sometimes amuse myself speculating what happens if Frodo chooses some other direction - e.g. if he heads West, do we end up with a Council of Cirdan?)
So I see in-world explanations that I can beleive. Also, looking at the writing, Tolkien may be deliberately getting us a bit frustrated - something I real like about this chapter is how the reader can be a bit ahead of Frodo - it is written so that we don't know anything that the departing hobbits don't know. But we're invited to fee a rising sense of unease: possibly getting further up the unease curve than the hobbits are themselves; getting that sense of "you've dallied to long Frodo; they've come for you!"
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 22 2014, 11:16am
Post #15 of 109
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The journey to Mordor starts by jumping the low place in the hedge...
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I like that low-key start.
Tha bit, ccuriously, seems to eb missing from the Google maps directions
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 22 2014, 11:22am
Post #16 of 109
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Bilbo's song had "pursuing it with eager feet" while Frodo has "weary"
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I think that is an insight both into how Frodo's personality differs from Bilbo's, and in Frodo's perception of his quest compared with Bilbo's:
Bilbo went to find a treasure, there and back again; but I go to lose one, and not return, as far as I can see.
(Frodo, near the start of our current chapter)
So it's not too surprising if Frodo is less enthusiastic.
Variants of this song keep coming up in the book, don't they. Possibly at least a little as a reflectionon life with "the Road" being one's journey through life?
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 22 2014, 11:48am
Post #17 of 109
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Why do you think the stranger doesn’t knock on the front door of Bag End? Knowing how the rest of this chapter unfolds, why was the Black Rider not more aggressive here?
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I think the Black Riders are on a covert mission. Best to reconnoitre before rushing in. For all the Rider knows, Frodo's associate Gandalf is inside: and that might spoil things, rather (mostly for the Rider).
From a writing POV, it might spoil things in a different way if a thin, menacing voice cries "open in the name orf Mordor"* and the birthday party is crashed by a Rider with a Morghul knife. As I've been posting elsewher ein this thread, one of the things I really like about this chapter is how it can leave a reader in agonies of being just a bit ahead of the hobbits in working out how bad the situation is becoming.
So it seems reasomable to me that the Rider is doing its best to make polite enquiries:
* "open in the name orf Mordor" was a typo, but I'm leaving it in because now I'm amused by imagining Khamul as having a very posh english accent. Dinner Jacket (Tuxedo) under the robe, and a bottle of wine because it's rude to turn up to a party without one...
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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a.s.
Valinor
Dec 22 2014, 12:11pm
Post #18 of 109
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OH! Two Wonderful Things I See in the RR!
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Finding Frodo commenting on posts, and a good old WNEBCFTPFY acronym in the subject line!
So good to see you, FF. I am back, too, after several years away, so don't know if you have been in the RR recently because, um, I wasn't. LOL. But so nice to see old friends are still here.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.
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a.s.
Valinor
Dec 22 2014, 12:28pm
Post #19 of 109
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Which incidentally, answers a.s. argument last week, that Frodo's being unable to throw the Ring into his hearth determined his failure at the Sammath Naur. Frodo couldn't get to Mount Doom without growing in strength and stature considerably, after which it would be a completely different ball game.
Well--my argument was that Frodo's inability to harm the Ring even in his own little fire at Bag End demonstrates (doesn't determine) his inability to harm the Ring even at the beginning, before the Quest has begun. I didn't mean to give the impression that Frodo will not be able to make the Journey there, simply that he makes every step of that journey with the knowledge that he probably will not be able to do his final task, worried by this knowledge the whole way but trusting that Gandalf will see him through. Which, looking ahead, gives an added dimension to the loss of Gandalf, for Frodo, in Moria.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.
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a.s.
Valinor
Dec 22 2014, 12:42pm
Post #20 of 109
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I don't know the original post, but here is the link to your mention of your previous post (Oh Good Heaven's that is convoluted!) as well as the link to Revie's blog about Jack's Hat (I don't see the links in your post to which I'm replying)
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 22 2014, 12:45pm
Post #21 of 109
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What news could [Gandalf] have learned? How do you think he got the message?
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Galdalf will later (Council of Elrond) remember setting off to get news because he felt uneasy, though he does say here that he's "heard something".
Certainly it is hard to see how Gandalf could get much news while holed up in Bag End. Unless of course...
Gandalf searches the web for news- if that fails Mithrandir, WNEBCFTPFY...
(http://www.tuaw.com/...le-filming-the-hobb/ )
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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a.s.
Valinor
Dec 22 2014, 2:22pm
Post #22 of 109
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To Jack's Hat
http://yourdailycslewis.blogspot.com/...2/jacks-hat.html?m=1
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Dec 22 2014, 8:49pm
Post #23 of 109
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I suppose it’s the Sunday evening/night Original Posting, and that I play chess on Monday mornings at the neighborhood coffee joint. But I would like to join in and give my thoughts. Excuse any repetitiveness. And thank you Cats16 for leading us on the beginning of our journey part way across the Shire.
1. Do you feel that Frodo would have been better off leaving now, rather than waiting until Autumn?
Yes, of course he would have been better off leaving months earlier. Would an easy walk along the East West Road have been possible with no Nazgul in pursuit? But even leaving when he did his wisdom told him to take covert trails less traveled.
2. Why did Gandalf not feel the need to urge Frodo to leave sooner than September 22nd, if he knew already at this point that “[the Road] will grow worse as the year fails,” and was “getting very anxious”? Is this a mistake on his part?
Knowing at this point that Frodo possessed the Ruling Ring I’ve always found it befuddling that Gandalf was so lackadaisical about when Frodo should leave. Yes, this seems to be a misjudgment on Gandalf’s part, as he now knew that Sauron was likely aware of the Shire and the name “Baggins”.
3. Are these “thoughts” our first indication of any effect the Ring an effect on Frodo?
I don’t sense at this point that the Ring had any adverse effects on Frodo.
4. Do you sense any uncertainty on Tolkien’s part in the direction of the plot? What do you make of Frodo’s reluctance to leave?
I think as the many months passed that, at this point, he began to feel some urgency, as Gandalf had not shown up yet, and perhaps the Ring itself was getting a little antsy. Frodo was somewhat reluctant to leave as he was beginning to realize the importance of his quest and the definite possibility of his never returning to his beloved Shire.
5. What similarities/differences do you see here between a fifty-year old Frodo and fifty-year old Bilbo?
Bilbo was ‘hurried’ into his quest with the Dwarves (by Gandalf of course), whereas Frodo had months to consider and prepare (unfortunately).
6. What are your thoughts of this plan? What do you make of Gandalf’s vague responses throughout this exchange?
To go covertly to Rivendell – absolutely.
7. Was it unnecessary for Gandalf to refer to the Cracks of Doom? Why do you think he did?
Not really necessary, but just another ‘Gandalf way’ of making Frodo aware of the import of his Burden.
8. Any thoughts on Tolkien’s note on Otho, in that he died at “the ripe but disappointed age of 102”? What was he disappointed about, exactly?
I find this delightful and I think it is Tolkien/Frodo’s way of clearing up some loose-ends. Otho was disappointed that he was never to inhabit the luxury of Bag End (assuming dead people can be disappointed :).
9. Why do you think Frodo actually sold Bag End to the SBs? Were there no other interested relatives? Was that the only way to not draw attention to his departure?
Well, Frodo was a nice Hobbit and he knew how badly Lobelia wanted Bag End, and so it was an easy sale (even though he probably got ripped :)), and he could get on with more important matters. His departure was not unknown. The folks in the vicinity thought he was moving to Buckland.
10. Do you believe that Frodo lost much of his wealth in this endeavor?
I suppose the house at Crickhollow was a minimal investment. And I suppose as in question #9 he took a loss with the sale of Bag End as Lobelia was not to be trifled with, money-wise. (She probably even offered as a down payment – silver spoons :).) But, no, I don’t feel Frodo lost ‘much of his wealth’ in either endeavor.
11. What news could he have learned? How do you think he got the message?
Perhaps news of movements in the Mordor area (Nazgul?). I’m sure during those months he had contact with traveling Dwarves and Elves and had some talks about the doings outside the Shire.
12. Why did Gandalf not urge Frodo to leave for Buckland, given that he was “very anxious” before he left?
Hmm, we need to back-up to question #2.
13. Do you have any thoughts on his increased emphasis that Frodo does NOT use the Ring?
Perhaps this relates back to the ‘news’ Gandalf learned, or just to emphasize to Frodo that to use the Ring is a danger in of itself.
14. Why was Sam not included in the birthday feast?
He was taking care of important business in the beer-cellar.
15. Do you possess any sympathy towards Lobelia’s 77+ year cause?
Not really. I was happy that Frodo left the dirty dishes for her to wash.
16. Why do you think the stranger doesn’t knock on the front door of Bag End? Knowing how the rest of this chapter unfolds, why was the Black Rider not more aggressive here?
Well, perhaps the Gaffer’s was the first hole in the neighborhood he came upon. He wouldn’t know where any particular ‘Baggins’ lived. And I don’t suppose he would de-horse to knock on any door :). He got the information he needed from Hamfast that ‘Baggins’ had left the area and gone to Buckland, and needed not be any more aggressive. (Shame Hamfast!)
17. What are your thoughts on Frodo’s personal journey thus far, as he waves good-bye to Hobbiton?
Some sadness as he looks down into the valley from the Green Hill Country wondering if he would ever return. Some anticipation of the dangers now to be faced.
“Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.”
But, sneaking off in daylight takes much more cunning.
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Kerewyn
Rohan
Dec 22 2014, 9:34pm
Post #24 of 109
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Don't seem to be in much of a hurry
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4. Do you sense any uncertainty on Tolkien’s part in the direction of the plot? What do you make of Frodo’s reluctance to leave?
No. There was uncertainty on the first writing, of course - but all traces of it have been skilfully erased.
It is to Rembrethil's credit that he showed Tolkien's initial uncertainty so well - but Tolkien did a very good job of rewiting afterwards. The plot rambles, because we need to get familiar with hobbits and the world they inhabit. Cut straight to Book II, and few readers (as opposed to filmgoers) will really care.
Sador, your point answers my over-riding thoughts as a movie-firster. It had crossed my mind this time that Gandalf’s vagueness with giving Frodo some clear direction, and hurrying him out the door, was due to Tolkien needing to time to find that direction himself; writing his way towards it, with a bit of 'faffing around.'
(ETA: noWizardme, I have just seen your excellent answer on this as well.)
Seriously, I wanted to give them all a boot up the backside, but am forced to slow down and trek at walking pace through the landscape. And actually, the high level of landscape description helps, it makes me picture a realistic journey’s start, and all the genuine flora and obstacles to traverse. (It reminded me of childhood experiences reading Enid Blyton's 'The Children of Cherry Tree Farm' and Adams' 'Watership Down', all set in the English landscape. )
I wonder if Tolkien had a firm map of The Shire in his head, or was describing in detail the particulars of woods and fields from countryside wanderings of his own.
What are your thoughts on Frodo’s sudden outburst of Bilbo’s verse? Just that it was delightful, this time round, to come across it – given its borrowing for LOTR and TH movies.
"Then the bells shall ring in gladness at the Mountain King's return... but all shall fail in sadness, and the lake will shine and burn."
(This post was edited by Kerewyn on Dec 22 2014, 9:46pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Dec 22 2014, 10:08pm
Post #25 of 109
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To me the honour is sufficient of belonging to the universe — such a great universe, and so grand a scheme of things. Not even Death can rob me of that honour. For nothing can alter the fact that I have lived; I have been I, if for ever so short a time. And when I am dead, the matter which composes my body is indestructible—and eternal, so that come what may to my 'Soul,' my dust will always be going on, each separate atom of me playing its separate part — I shall still have some sort of a finger in the pie. When I am dead, you can boil me, burn me, drown me, scatter me — but you cannot destroy me: my little atoms would merely deride such heavy vengeance. Death can do no more than kill you.
-Wilhelm Nero Pilate Barbellion, The Journal of a Disappointed Man, 1919.
1. Do you feel that Frodo would have been better off leaving now, rather than waiting until Autumn?
Generally speaking, it should be cooler, less humid, fewer insects, more room and food (not to mention cheaper prices) at inns, and less congested roads (which means less torn up roads and also that anyone following should be a lot easier to spot).
2. Why did Gandalf not feel the need to urge Frodo to leave sooner than September 22nd, if he knew already at this point that “[the Road] will grow worse as the year fails,” and was “getting very anxious”?
Frankly it’s hard to imagine the Road failing any worse than their actual route.
In the event the hobbits will choose the far more perilous route through the Old Forest and the Barrow Downs. As for the far more dangerous leg between Bree and Rivendell, Gandalf will make arrangements for a guide. But unfortunately, the guide will detour off into the Wild to Weathertop and near disaster. In the end it will take two Elf Lords and a Wizard to wrest victory from the jaws of defeat.
Is this a mistake on his part?
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.
Of course some of us are given a lot more time than others, so it’s all relative. As Treebeard says “Do not be hasty, that is my motto.”
For example we humans with our life expectancy of 67 would feel a bit more urgency in the matter than a hobbit with that of 100, and much much more than a long lived elf like Gildor, or an immortal maia like Gandalf. On the other hand such a delay would feel like criminal neglect in dog years, and for a fruit fly anything longer than a day would be fatal.
So where we may see a lack of haste by the Wise concerning the One Ring, they may consider themselves fast-tracking the matter.
Ironically it is our dear simple Sam who will experience an epiphany of the relativity of time that will transcend both the mortal and immortal mind:
Far above the Ephel Dúath in the West the night-sky was still dim and pale. There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach. His song in the Tower had been defiance rather than hope; for then he was thinking of himself. Now, for a moment, his own fate, and even his masters, ceased to trouble him.
-The Land of Shadow
That Tolkien dabbles in the relativistic nature of time in his long work is no surprise given Letter #24:
We originally meant each to write an excursionary "Thriller": a Space- journey and a Time-journey (mine) each discovering myth.
Frodo seems to be facing a dilemma, and how to proceed into the unknown journey ahead.
In the event, Frodo left precisely when he needed to.
“It [his 50th birthday] seemed somehow the proper day on which to set out and follow him [Bilbo]. Following Bilbo was uppermost in his mind, and the one thing that made the thought of leaving bearable. He thought as little as possible about the Ring, and where it might lead him in the end. But he did not tell all his thoughts to Gandalf. What the Wizard guessed was always difficult to tell.”
3. Are these “thoughts” our first indication of any effect the Ring an effect on Frodo?
Just the opposite. A sign of hobbity resilience.
4. Do you sense any uncertainty on Tolkien’s part in the direction of the plot?
More a gathering storm.
What do you make of Frodo’s reluctance to leave?
You can't go back home to your family, back home to your childhood ... back home to a young man's dreams of glory and of fame ... back home to places in the country, back home to the old forms and systems of things which once seemed everlasting but which are changing all the time – back home to the escapes of Time and Memory."
-Thomas Wolfe
Frodo suspects this.
5. What similarities/differences do you see here between a fifty-year old Frodo and fifty-year old Bilbo?
Frodo seems more melancholy, as if Bilbo's adventuring was indeed an infectious disease, much like all respectable hobbits suspect.
They come to an agreement that Frodo shall go “towards danger; but not too rashly, nor too straight,” with Rivendell being the destination.
6. What are your thoughts of this plan?
Very puzzling given that Rivendell is a valley that cannot be found except by those who already know where it is, and Frodo don’t. Think maybe Gandalf will give him a compass what doesn't point north?
What do you make of Gandalf’s vague responses throughout this exchange?
It’s like he’s only trying to give Frodo a little nudge out the door.
7. Was it unnecessary for Gandalf to refer to the Cracks of Doom?
Personally I think it was rude.
Why do you think he did?
Infodrip.
And all of a sudden, we find out that Frodo has sold Bag End to the Sackville-Bagginses!
8. Any thoughts on Tolkien’s note on Otho, in that he died at “the ripe but disappointed age of 102”?
You'd think by the age of 100 he'd have given up.
What was he disappointed about, exactly?
Most folk, when sick unto death, gain a little consolation over the notoriety gained by the fact of their decease. Criminals enjoy the pomp and circumstance of their execution. Voltaire said of Rousseau that he wouldn't mind being hanged if they'd stick his name on the gibbet. But my own death would be so mean and insignificant. Guy de Maupassant died in a grand manner—a man of intellect and splendid physique who became insane. Tusitala's death in the South Seas reads like a romance. Heine, after a life of sorrow, died with a sparkling witticism on his lips; Vespasian with a jest.
But I cannot for the life of me rake up any excitement over my own immediate decease—an unobtrusive passing away of a rancorous, disappointed, morbid, and self-assertive entomologist in a West Kensington Boarding House—what a mean little tragedy! It is hard not to be somebody even in death.
-Wilhelm Nero Pilate Barbellion, The Journal of a Disappointed Man, 1919.
9. Why do you think Frodo actually sold Bag End to the SBs?
Sometimes giving people what they’ve spent most of their lives wishing for can be a really nasty revenge.
Were there no other interested relatives?
Doubtless, but the SBs were probably the only ones with the available liquidity. I've found "cash on the barrelhead" can bring a price down substantially, particularly when buying a used car from the want ads.
Was that the only way to not draw attention to his departure?
Well, it did create other avenues of gossip.
He plans to move to Buckland, and has already (with Merry’s help) bought at small house at Crickhollow.
10. Do you believe that Frodo lost much of his wealth in this endeavor?
Actually, what with the precipitous drop in property values during the days of the ruffians, I’d say he made out like a bandit. I wouldn’t wonder at some mutterings of “insider dealings” at The Green Dragon post-Scouring.
Gandalf stays in the Shire for another two months. He leaves abruptly, worrying about news he’s heard from other realms.
11. What news could he have learned?
Sauron attacking Osgiliath. It’s a wonder he doesn’t meet Boromir coming the other way.
How do you think he got the message?
Rangers. I can’t help thinking the Dunedain have a spy or two in Gondor, just to watch for an auspicious time for the return of the king.
12. Why did Gandalf not urge Frodo to leave for Buckland, given that he was “very anxious” before he left?
Buckland wouldn’t have the social picket line that Frodo has protecting him in Bag End.
13. Do you have any thoughts on his increased emphasis that Frodo does NOT use the Ring?
So when he does use it we already know things will go bad, like in Bree, or on Weathertop.
Autumn passes, and the hobbits celebrate Frodo and Bilbo’s birthdays without any word of Gandalf’s whereabouts.
14. Why was Sam not included in the birthday feast?
Who do you think was serving it?
Lobelia and Lotho arrive the next morning, ready to take over Bag End. Frodo decides to wait for Gandalf until nightfall, and will leave without him by foot.
15. Do you possess any sympathy towards Lobelia’s 77+ year cause?
Anyone who has spent that long wanting what someone else has is pretty sad in my book.
Frodo overhears the Gaffer answering questions from an unidentified stranger asking about his whereabouts.
16. Why do you think the stranger doesn’t knock on the front door of Bag End?
There’s a thin line between thoroughness and wasting time. Sure they could go up and knock on the door, and if no one answered they could peek in the windows, and if they didn’t see anyone in the windows they could break in and search the rooms, and if they didn’t find anyone they could search for hidden panels, and so on and so forth.
Knowing how the rest of this chapter unfolds, why was the Black Rider not more aggressive here?
Considering how much territory they have to search they do have to maintain a modicum of civility. And when they finally do become aggressive and commit to house-breaking in Crickhollow all heck breaks loose and they have to flee the area.
17. What are your thoughts on Frodo’s personal journey thus far, as he waves good-bye to Hobbiton?
Tolkien says it best:
For me for ever thy forbidden marge appears
A gleam of white rock over sundering seas,
And thou art crowned in glory through a mist of tears,
Thy shores all full of music, and thy lands of ease -
Old haunts of many children robed in flowers,
Until the sun pace down his arch of hours,
When in the silence fairies with a wistful heart
Dance to soft airs their harps and viols weave.
Down the great wastes and in gloom apart
I long for thee and thy fair citadel.
Where echoing through the lighted elms at eve
In a high inland tower there peals a bell:
O lonely, sparkling isle, farewell!
-2nd Lt. JRR Tolkien, June 6, 1916, on a troop ship bound for France
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"It was a bright cold day in April, and the mantle clock was striking thirteen."
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Dec 22 2014, 10:12pm)
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