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Old Toby
Grey Havens
Dec 21 2014, 6:57am
Post #1 of 18
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Thorin's funeral - a matter of closure
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I've seen the movie 4 times now; once in 2D, once in 3D and twice in HFR 3D. Every time when I walk out of the theater I feel emotionally drained.
The book made so little of Thorin's death really, and mentioning Fili and Kili's deaths were almost like an afterthought. For me, it is so tremendously done in this movie, their deaths. All the more so because they were never described in the book, so the movie filled in all those blanks. How it was done is both gratifying and horrifying to watch. Fili's manner of death came as a shock. Kili's was moving, but not quite as devastating as I thought it would be. Thorin's death, on the other hand, was so well done, so heart-rending, so beautifully acted by Freeman and Armitage, that I think I stopped breathing for a few moments. I didn't shed the buckets of tears that I thought I would, but I think that is because the death scene took hold of me and left me speechless and drained.
All of which leads me to think that I would have loved to have seen Thorin's funeral (and Fili and Kili's). I believe that seeing that honor done him would have given me some closure on all those deaths. Another thought...I believe, I hope, we will see the funeral in the extended edition of this movie. I found it a bit strange that the people of Dale would be all looking towards Erebor in that last scene, I imagine to honor the fallen heirs of Durin. After all, they certainly had no love for the dwarves given their situation. And I would have loved to have seen Thorin honored by being laid to rest with the Arkenstone and Orcrist. Then, I think, I would have been more content.
"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Dec 21 2014, 7:17am
Post #2 of 18
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was following also as much as they could what was going on after Thorin and his Company of Dwarves finally came out , first joining Dain's army in the Battle, and then the three going with Thorin up to Ravenhill.
I guess also that this heroism on their part erased in the Lake-towners their previous bad feelings about the Dwarves: they were all now fighting the same much more horrible enemies and putting their very lives on the line...
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 21 2014, 11:31am
Post #3 of 18
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I must admit to being a bit foxed by this funeral focus. I can't work out if there is story driver to wanting to see it or it is really another one where the worry is that the filmmakers are being mean to the characters.
So when you say you wanted to see that honour done to Thorin - do you mean by the filmmakers or by the other Dwarves?
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Angharad73
Rohan
Dec 21 2014, 12:10pm
Post #4 of 18
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Not just for Thorin's story, but also for Fili, whose body we last saw abandoned on Ravenhill. There was no time for anyone to mourn him then, so I would like to see him laid to rest. And for Thorin, being honoured by the Dwarves, the Men and the Elves at the very end would complete his redemption.
Also, there are some loose ends that could be tied up within a funeral scene, such as what happens to the Arkenstone and who becomes King under the Mountain.
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Thrain II
Lorien
Dec 21 2014, 12:59pm
Post #5 of 18
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My only complaint for this movie is
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that we didn't saw Heirs funeral. I think it was really important to see that, not only because of proper send of for main characters, but also to see what is the fate of the Arkenstone and who will be the new king now that all 3 of them are dead. But I think it's safe to assume this will be in the EE so I can't wait to see it! I specially like the fact that Beorn is present at the funeral!
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Macfeast
Rohan
Dec 21 2014, 1:00pm
Post #6 of 18
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With so many characters potentially present, a funeral could indeed have tied up a number of loose ends.
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What happens to Dáin, and the Lonely Mountain? Show Dáin at the funeral, wearing Thrór's crown, and we learn that he becomes King. Might be weird to think of Dáin crowned King before the funeral, but I believe it could work as a visual shorthand for "this is what happens next". Having the Company stand close to Dáin might also symbolize that they stand behind Dáin, and that the Lonely Mountain ultimately ends up in good hands (after three movies spent on the reclaimation of the Lonely Mountain, this point in particular I felt warranted some payoff, some closure).
But wait, will there be peace? Will Dáin, the "less reasonable one" (this little factoid makes me think that it cannot simply be safely assumed that there will be peace; Previous actions, and spoken words, matter), be able to broker peace with the elves? Will Thranduil obtain what he sought, or will there be more conflict? Show Thranduil with the necklace he sought in his hands, and have him place Orcrist upon Thorin's tomb, and we learn that the elves and the dwarves will have peace, and that Thranduil and Dáin were able to come to an agreement.
What of the Arkenstone? Show Bard place it upon Thorin's tomb, and we learn that it is returned to the Mountain, where it belongs.
What about Beorn? Merely having him present at the funeral tells us that he didn't just arrive at the battle and then disappear entirely... which still isn't much, but at least it is better than a 15-second "there, Beorn was present for the battle, just like in the book"-cameo.
No need to give each of these story threads their own separate, fade-to-black fake-out "ending", when they can all be streamlined into one sequence (that, I think, should have been the response to the "too many endings"-criticism of ROTK; Streamlining, not excision). Additionally, this could all be done entirely through visual storytelling and without dialogue, meaning you could still have the funeral be a somber and sad affair, uninterrupted by otherwise more upbeat and promising dialogue, in keeping with the already established sorrowful mood.
(This post was edited by Macfeast on Dec 21 2014, 1:10pm)
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Angharad73
Rohan
Dec 21 2014, 1:10pm
Post #7 of 18
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That's exactly what I was thinking, but you have expressed it far more eloquently than I ever could.
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Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea
Dec 21 2014, 4:21pm
Post #8 of 18
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It's more important for Book Readers. I just posted in another thread I went to the movie with two non book readers who only had seen the first two movies. Afterwards I explained there was a scene there that wasn't in the movie regarding Thorin's funeral, the Arkenstone and Orcrist as well as Fili and Kili. Neither one of them felt it would have added to the movie for them and felt the running time was perfect as well as the story.
I think it's more for us as book readers that want to see it (I know I certainly do!). I had enough closure though as it is for the cinema viewing and I was okay with it. I thought Armitage and Freeman were just outstanding in that scene and it could not have been done any better. And I was also fine with the interpretation of Kili's and Fili's deaths. As you said it was a bare mention in the books with no detail. So I was good with all of it.
Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13
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Old Toby
Grey Havens
Dec 21 2014, 5:01pm
Post #9 of 18
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Thank you all for your comments and feedback
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You all made some good points and I agree with all of you too. I guess I felt there were questions that needed answering in the film, like what became of the Arkenstone, Orcrist, who became the next King under the mountain, etc. as well as needing, myself, to see Thorin and his nephews laid to rest. Interesting, as Ham Sammy mentioned the reactions of her friends who had not read the book, that they didn't have such questions and needs. So maybe those of us who read the book are missing these things more than others.
Regardless, I think it would have been nice if they had included the funeral. Maybe they cut it for running time.
"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)
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Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea
Dec 21 2014, 5:14pm
Post #10 of 18
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I think it was cut for running time. I know it's controversial and some feel that other parts could have been cut and/or reduced (such as Alfrid) and although I don't disagree with that I have to say those people like the folks I was with enjoyed the Alfrid scenes so I think it's more cutting the movie to a more diverse audience and making sure they seal the deal at the box office. I think he succeeded in that regard.
We will have to wait for December 2015 for the EE! No!! I want it now!
Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13
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Avandel
Half-elven
Dec 21 2014, 5:43pm
Post #11 of 18
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Frankly I feel lousy at the end of this film , then again the book ending has always been an issue for me as well. Someone said to me something about the Durins deserving to be shown the respect they have earned. It's also true that we have this scene of the people of Dale blowing a great horn and (evidently) Bard and the people standing in silent respect, but because there is no connecting scene for me that just feels tacked in, somehow.
Tho personally didn't NEED to be shown that (and I've seen the leaked picture roaming around, very epic, but it's still sad). The "best" thing for me, in what I think was a gentle handling of it all, was Bilbo being there. I appreciated that more than anything.
Or to paraphrase Bilbo, this book/film for me was never about some epic ending; it was about the journey. Which for me is also true of Lord of the Rings. Now I am trying to think if I am ever happy when a great book ends (Game of Thrones, probably *cough ). It's also true that the ending of this film, when the day comes that I own it, is not something I personally would watch over, and over, and over.
Tho I do fully understand the many expectations people had for this film, key scenes that I think were never expected to be cut, and the possible feeling of having had a great meal but still feeling as though you are hungry? I don't understand the choices Sir Peter makes, often. I have my own set of things I feel wistful about *sigh*. (Tho I don't mean this to sound as tho I don't appreciate the magnificent achievements of Sir Peter. And I'm sure if he had wanted my opinion or advice, he would have asked. )
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Dec 21 2014, 5:57pm
Post #12 of 18
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Yes, all those things, Macfeast
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For instance, it wouldn't take a lot to show Thranduil with the necklace and to explain why those jewels meant so much to him (it's not properly explained in the films, and his coveting of the gems makes him appear a bit greedy).
As well as seeing more of Beorn around the battle, it would be lovely if Gandalf and Bilbo stopped off at his fabulous home on the way back…
(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Dec 21 2014, 5:57pm)
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CathrineB
Rohan
Dec 21 2014, 8:06pm
Post #13 of 18
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The fact that there's no mention of Fili in particular after he dies just annoys me soooo much
It needed that funeral. It really did.
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sarahb1863
Rivendell
Dec 21 2014, 9:48pm
Post #14 of 18
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And cut down on Legolas' screen time? Are you crazy? He's the star of the movie, after all...
</sarcasm>
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sueb1863
Rivendell
Dec 21 2014, 11:34pm
Post #15 of 18
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I wouldn't assume the funeral will be in the EE. PJ has left a LOT of stuff out of the EEs that we still haven't seen (such as the RotK epilogue and Faramir's healing, both of which were filmed).
PJ and the studio know the fans really want to see the funeral, so I can see him holding that back to get fans to buy future editions. I hope he doesn't but it wouldn't surprise me.
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glor
Rohan
Dec 22 2014, 12:36am
Post #16 of 18
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I do not think it was cut for running time
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I think it was not included because, in a film the visual spectacle and grandeur of a state funeral, even a low key one would have changed the tone and focus of the ending.
The end of the Hobbit, the book, was about the journey and loss, the pointless of a battle where no one really won, no glory, no happy bouncing on the bed reunions, it was an ending written by someone who had seen action in WW1 and had yet to see WWII.
The ending of BOTFA(film), by omitting the funeral, made it all about Bilbo and his loss. To have included the funeral would have made the ending of this trilogy all about Thorin, and the death of a king.
What we got was the death of a friend, and the end of Bilbo's journey, not Thorin's. We got quiet contemplation and grieve, not glory.
No mascara can survive BOTFA
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sueb1863
Rivendell
Dec 22 2014, 11:32am
Post #17 of 18
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If that's the thinking behind the cut
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then it's possible we will never see the funeral footage, except for the picture in the movie book.
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fingolfin_nc
Bree
Dec 28 2014, 5:13pm
Post #18 of 18
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First, I think and hope that Thorin and his nephews are properly buried in the EE and that Bilbo is there to witness.
Second, for me, Thorin's death scene was easily the best scene of the entire Hobbit trilogy and unlike many moments in the LOTR trilogy the only scene that tugged at my heart strings (Well perhaps except for the dwarves singing in Bag End maybe)...
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