|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Elanor of Rohan
Lorien
Dec 20 2014, 2:52pm
Post #1 of 61
(1368 views)
Shortcut
|
Since in the book everything is vague concerning the fights that ultimately led to the deaths of the Durins, Pj and his team had to build up something from scratch.
By making Thorin and "his best fighters" go to Ravenhill, they wanted to create single story-lines for the fates of Thorin, Fili, Kili, and Dwalin during the battle.
I had numerous issues about Fili and Kili's deaths: I would have wanted them to die together, I admit.
I would have wanted far less Ninja Legolas.
I would have wanted something more straightforward and faithful to the book.
But I am not a successful script-writer and I am not even a Tolkien scholar. I am just a fan.
Therefore I am trying to rationalise and to understand why they had chosen those paths.
PJ already had Boromir and Haldir die in battle (not to mention Théoden, but his case is a bit different).
Boromir dies pierced by arrows.
Haldir is classically slain in battle.
Of course they did not want to repeat these patterns, but they wanted to give each of them a different hero's death (or at least they tried to)
- Thorin dies in single fight, killing his enemy before dying (a topos)
- Kili dies fighting for/along Tauriel (another classical theme, dying in defense of someone else, especially a love interest).
Both are classical and conventional.
What remains for Fili? The one they evidently cared for less (they did not understand Fili's potential, and they did not imagine how much Dean O'Gorman personal charm would give Fili, in terms of popularity among fans).
So they chose to give him the cruellest death, the capture and the execution: the apparently unheroic death, but the one which requires the greatest amount of personal courage, because Fili's last word was "Run", not "Help".
Btw it also requires a clever actor, capable of intensity and subtleness. Does he fight before his capture? He is wounded, so probably, but in this film there's no proof.
And Dwalin? Sometimes the bravest heroes are the ones who survive tragedy. It would be important to have Dwalin grieving for his loved ones, especially for Fili, who, as far as we know, is still lying somewhere on the snow on Ravenhill
Thoughts?
|
|
|
mirkwoodwanderer
Lorien
Dec 20 2014, 3:11pm
Post #2 of 61
(898 views)
Shortcut
|
I had numerous issues about Fili and Kili's deaths: I would have wanted them to die together, I admit.
- one ALLLWAYS dies alone ! and I think PJ did it right.
Who would not have liked President Kennedy or Martin Luther King to die more like hero's.. We can not choose our own dead at all.
I would have wanted far less Ninja Legolas.
- I did not. Elfes have centuries to train and become like that. It would be strange if a 300, 400 year old who is still as fit as one can be would fight clumsy
I would have wanted something more straightforward and faithful to the book.
- No.. A book is to read, a movie is to enjoy and the book is written in another age. It would have become a children's book and although PJ added some kids stuf, it would not have pleased us adults very much
|
|
|
MedwedtoBeorn
Rivendell
Dec 20 2014, 3:26pm
Post #3 of 61
(911 views)
Shortcut
|
I found that Fili's death was extremely heroic. When exploring the tunnels, it was subtle but Fili clearly knew the danger was in the higher tunnels and sent his little brother below to safety. Even though he was captured and faced certain death, he implored Thorin to "go" and "run" with no thought as to his imminent fate. I thought Fili's death was very well done.
|
|
|
Elarie
Grey Havens
Dec 20 2014, 3:30pm
Post #5 of 61
(904 views)
Shortcut
|
In a way, Fili's death was the hardest to watch because it was just so cruel and done with such a cold, evil satisfaction for the sole purpose of taunting Thorin. I never had much interest in Azog throughout these movies, but in that particular moment, I really hated him.
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
|
|
|
DigificWriter
Lorien
Dec 20 2014, 4:03pm
Post #7 of 61
(861 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The thematic heroism of TBotFA's climax
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I have brought this up elsewhere, although not in as much depth as I'm about to.
There is a significant amount of thematic heroism in the way TBotFA's climax unfolds, particularly when it comes to the deaths of Fili and Kili. Fili's last thoughts and words are a plea for his kinfolk to run, and Fili's death is a direct result of his brother's heinous slaughter, as he goes charging headlong into danger in order to avenge him. There is also a great deal of thematic symbolism in Fili dying in front of Tauriel, particularly as it pertains to the setting aside of ages-old emnities between Elves and Dwarves and as it pertains to the journey that Legolas goes on as a character over the course of the LotR films, as it makes his friendship with Gimli a direct extension of the way in which Tauriel interacted with Kili, as he (Legolas) becomes a witness to Kili's death and the way it affects Tauriel, even if he isn't present for her later conversation with Thranduil.
|
|
|
MasterOrc
Rivendell
Dec 20 2014, 4:52pm
Post #8 of 61
(821 views)
Shortcut
|
died (Kili, & Fili) defending Thorin. They went in looking for the enemy and sprung the trap taking out many of the enemy before Thorin had his epic to the death showdown with Azog. The book is vague explaining there deaths other than defending Thorin. So in a way, they did defend Thorin in a PJ adaptation  .
Perhaps in the EE, we will see more of Fili defending himself before capture.
|
|
|
Miss-Merriweather
Bree
Dec 20 2014, 5:49pm
Post #9 of 61
(794 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Apparently none of the big bad orcs...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
... has ever watched "The Last of the Mohicans", because then they'd have known that slaughtering a prince like that leads to the baddie being chopped into many small pieces very shortly afterwards by some very enraged heroes.
Fili's death scene in the TE does feel a bit trimmed (there just has to be a bit more for the EE), but it sure is infuriating!
|
|
|
Elentari03
Rivendell
Dec 20 2014, 7:09pm
Post #10 of 61
(787 views)
Shortcut
|
O'Gorman's Fili died a very heroic death. Personally, I thought both the movie character (Fili) and the actor (O'Gorman) were terribly underused. O'Gorman's Fili came across as mature, wise, and one who died like a man, whereas Kili came across in the movies as an overwrought, overly dramatic and emotional teenage boy.
(This post was edited by Elentari03 on Dec 20 2014, 7:09pm)
|
|
|
Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 20 2014, 7:14pm
Post #11 of 61
(744 views)
Shortcut
|
That's what they were doing at Ravenhill. It's not like they died on a boating holiday in the South of France!
|
|
|
marillaraina
Rohan
Dec 20 2014, 8:58pm
Post #12 of 61
(743 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Missed that version of the film
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
O'Gorman's Fili died a very heroic death. Personally, I thought both the movie character (Fili) and the actor (O'Gorman) were terribly underused. O'Gorman's Fili came across as mature, wise, and one who died like a man, whereas Kili came across in the movies as an overwrought, overly dramatic and emotional teenage boy.
IMO, he never behaved in an immature(at least not more than any of the other dwarves, including Fili and even Thorin).
Let's see he was injured and he didn't complain. One could say maybe he should have said how badly he was injured but considering EVERYONE knew he'd been shot and no one seemed concerned he probably felt he didn't have a reason to be either, that's just the way being shot feels as I doubt he'd experienced it before. He had no way to know it was poisoned and thus would affect him differently than a regular wound and given that none of the people who were far more worldly and experienced seemed at all concerned(or even thanks him for the fact that he noticed and managed to open the gate) why would he? So put that down to inexperience rather than immaturity.
When he was told he couldn't go - he really pleaded his case in a relatively calm manner, considering a) how crushed he would have been and b) how sick he was feeling. He stated his case once as anyone should have the right to do and when Thorin refused again he did exactly as he was told.
Other than that? Yeah I'm not thinking of any other times he could be considered over-emotional, over-wrought or over-dramatic. At least no in comparison to many other heroes we've had in these films, they all get emotional from time to time or raise their voices. He never did anything in any of the actions scenes for his own aggrandizement or to show off or for his own ego. Everything was done either out of necessity or to help others.
His feelings for Tauriel were not - they actually sort of turned the usual portrayal of elves and dwarves on it's head in this regard, because Kili knew what he was feeling and he accepted it and he seemed to accept the difficulties he knew would come with it(he says "I"m not afraid"), If you look at his face there on the lake there is sort of peace he has about it and when it seems like perhaps rejects him he does give her the stone but he also continues without further ado . Tauriel was the one who seemed to have no clue how to handle it.
There wasn't anything immature about their conversation in the jail cells - a little bit of uncertain banter at first but then they had a genuine, deep conversation about things that inspired them, things of beauty in the world that made them feel in awe.
I must have missed the cut of the films that included an over-emotional, over-wrought teenager.
|
|
|
Arveldis
Rivendell
Dec 20 2014, 9:20pm
Post #14 of 61
(741 views)
Shortcut
|
|
You captured my feelings perfectly.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I had numerous issues about Fili and Kili's deaths: I would have wanted them to die together, I admit.
I would have wanted far less Ninja Legolas.
I would have wanted something more straightforward and faithful to the book.
This is exactly what I was hoping for going into the film: less of the invented Legolas and Tauriel subplot; honorable endings for Fili and Kili like the ones suggested in the book; and above all a film that stuck to the book, like PJ promised us. However, I had an inkling that PJ wouldn't be able to resist Legolas' stunts, giving the "romance" a fair amount of time, and having Kili's death somehow intertwined with Tauriel. So, yes, when I saw all of those things happen on screen I was upset.
Am I happy with Fili's death? Yes and no. I had expected PJ to push his death off to the side and make it relatively unimportant compared to Kili's, so I was pleasantly surprised (if anyone can be happy over a death) that Fili's death was done in such a way that it left an impact on viewers. It came as an extreme shock to me (but I had avoided spoilers), and it sounds like it did for many others on here also.
The way in which Fili's death was exectuted did, in my eyes, make him a hero. Up until the very end he demonstrated something that he always has: selflessness. He sent his brother to the lower tunnels because he knew (hoped?) Kili would be safer there. Fili chose to investigate the area that contained the most danger. How many of us would be able to do that? I think he knew as soon as he saw the lights in the tunnel and the sound of footsteps in the distance that he wouldn't last the day. But, based on what others have said on here, Fili still fought, determined not to go down without a fight.
As a person with acrophobia, I can only imagine how terrifying it was for him to be lifted up by Azog high above the ground. Fili knew his end was near, but he didn't give Azog the delight of knowing that he was terrified. Instead, Fili swallowed his fear and did what he always has done: thought of others before himself. Instead of screaming or crying, he used his last moments to try to save his kin.
But, that still doesn't change the fact that Fili's (and Kili's) death was far from "defending him [Thorin] with shield and body, for he was their mother's elder brother." (Emphasis mine.) Yes, one could argue that technically Fili's death was a result of following Thorin's orders (because he did try to not engage and instead go back to Thorin), and that he did defend Thorin by taking down numerous orcs. But that's stretching it, I think. Fili was robbed of his noble death he had in the book and instead slaughtered in the cruellest way before his kin. Is it effective? Yes, but he deserved better, and he had better in the book.
What is also upsetting is that never once was Fili mentioned again. Kili, who originally (as I interpreted the scene) ran off in a rage to get vengeance for his brother's death, seemingly gets distracted when he hears Tauriel scream and completely forgets about his brother (therefore making Fili's death useless since his wish by sending Kili to the lower tunnels was to save Kili). Kili then gets a huge chunk of time devoted to his death and Tauriel's reaction to it. Thorin, and rightfully so, gets a moment of respect from the Dwarves as they kneel around him, and then more references to his death in later segments of the movie. Yet Fili, the one who was brutally murdered in cold blood and sacrificed his life for his kin, is never mentioned again? He was just left laying on the cold stone as the snow fell around him, eyes wide open and face fixed in an expression of pain and shock.
I think it's a downright shame that PJ and co. deemed Fili to be less important than Kili and shoved him off to the side so that certain subplots could be pushed in instead. I also think it's terrible that they thought that giving Fili a horrific death scene made up for his noticeable absence in the movies.
Overall, I found Fili's death was effective, heartwrenching, and valiant. It wasn't exactly true to the book, but it did let his character shine. (However, this selflessness also could have been poignantly demonstrated with Fili falling in battle as he defended Thorin. I still wish we had this.) But, I get the distinct feeling that Fili's death was purposely meant to be short so that more time could be given to "more important" scenes, like Tauriel's tears over Kili. My impression all through these films was that PJ favored Kili over Fili, and it was never more clear to me than in Fili's death scene. The scene was a quick way to squeeze maximum emotion out of the viewers but at the same time leave enough minutes for other scenes. What would have been nice is if PJ and co. had realized from the start that both Fili and Kili were special, and because of that given them equal time and importance.
And Dwalin? Sometimes the bravest heroes are the ones who survive tragedy
Just another one of the unfinished storylines... Whatever happened to Dwalin while Thorin was fighting Azog and Kili Bolg? It's like he disappeared.
(This post was edited by Arveldis on Dec 20 2014, 9:34pm)
|
|
|
marillaraina
Rohan
Dec 20 2014, 9:51pm
Post #15 of 61
(720 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Not really supporting her case. LOL
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
he flirts and leers at anything in a skirt during the feast at Rivendell, and is unable to tell the difference in gender of said Elves... I must have missed the cut of the films that included an over-emotional, over-wrought teenager.
That isn't over-emotional or overwrought though. :) Not being able to tell the gender is inexperience that isn't the same as immaturity. And his flirting consisted of, not "leering" as I recall but rather some slightly bashful staring and then a somewhat cheeky wink. Hardly swinging from the rafters over the top behavior.
And when he was teased first he tried to save face a little, something grown mature men do all the time, and when that just made it worse, he didn't stomp off in a huff which, let's be real, is what an "immature overwrought teenager" would do. :)
Not to mention in the eating scenes at Rivendell? Where Dwalin whines about the lack of meat and Ori refuses to eat green food? Where they were throwing food around and doing all sorts of things - including many dwarves who were much older than he was - and Kili's "flirting" is called immature? Seems like rather a double standard.
Kili, who originally (as I interpreted the scene) ran off in a rage to get vengeance for his brother's death, seemingly gets distracted when he hears Tauriel scream and completely forgets about his brother (therefore making Fili's death useless since his wish by sending Kili to the lower tunnels was to save Kili).
I'm not sure what you are saying here? How does Kili following Tauriel's scream "therefoer" make Fili's death useless? First off what was Kili supposed to do? Sit in a corner the rest of the fight hiding so he'd live? That doesn't make sense and certainly wouldn't have been honorable, brave, etc or any of those things. Secondly rushing off a blind rage to avenge Fili's death was actually MORE of a "waste" - he'd be running straight into his death having helped no one(because he wasn't going to be killing Azog that's for sure, if he could even manage to get to him).
Not mention is it seriously "getting distracted" help save someone else in trouble on a battlefield?
How about this? Fili helped cause the ending scenario by sending Kili the other way - if they'd inspected the upper tunnel together, as they should have that's why you do things in pairs safety in numbers, one or possibly even both of them may have managed to get away and given warning to the others, it may only have been 30 seconds of warning but 30 seconds can make a big difference in a battle. If he suspected something was up and it could be dangerous - well how did he expect anyone else to find out about it if he went alone and something happened to him? Someone would have to come look for him(as he certainly wouldn't have known he was going to paraded before them), probably Kili because he was already there and wouldn't leave without his brother and thus end up in the same position Fili was apparently trying to protect him from.
Did he have good intentions, he did. Did he make the right decision? Not necessarily. Was he heroic? Of course.
(This post was edited by marillaraina on Dec 20 2014, 10:06pm)
|
|
|
lionoferebor
Rohan
Dec 20 2014, 10:50pm
Post #16 of 61
(695 views)
Shortcut
|
|
That would also be the scene....
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
where he fails to acknowledge his brother after he nearly dies of Orc poison. I'm not saying he should not have thanked Tauriel, because he most certainly should have (though the poetry was a bit much), but he never even thanks his brother for staying back in Lake-town with him. For choosing him over the quest, for choosing family over inheritance. At times, IMO, it feels as if Kili takes his brother for granted.
O'Gorman's Fili died a very heroic death. Personally, I thought both the movie character (Fili) and the actor (O'Gorman) were terribly underused. O'Gorman's Fili came across as mature, wise, and one who died like a man, whereas Kili came across in the movies as an overwrought, overly dramatic and emotional teenage boy. I must have missed the cut of the films that included an over-emotional, over-wrought teenager. |
|
|
lionoferebor
Rohan
Dec 20 2014, 10:51pm
Post #17 of 61
(679 views)
Shortcut
|
I'm glad someone else's sees it the way I do.
O'Gorman's Fili died a very heroic death. Personally, I thought both the movie character (Fili) and the actor (O'Gorman) were terribly underused. O'Gorman's Fili came across as mature, wise, and one who died like a man, whereas Kili came across in the movies as an overwrought, overly dramatic and emotional teenage boy.
|
|
|
mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Dec 21 2014, 6:38am
Post #18 of 61
(609 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Yes... but that was part of Kili's charm to be the way he was...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
He is so much fun!... And still able to fall so deeply in love with Tauriel he won her over too...
No wonder his mother is worried especially about him as 'the reckless one", and Thorin has a soft corner for him too, and Fili himself just loves his younger brother and ever tries to protect him...
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
|
|
|
mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Dec 21 2014, 6:43am
Post #19 of 61
(591 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Agree with you on all these.points... //
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
|
|
|
Miss-Merriweather
Bree
Dec 21 2014, 5:16pm
Post #20 of 61
(561 views)
Shortcut
|
(Kili) fails to acknowledge his brother after he nearly dies of Orc poison... he never even thanks his brother for staying back in Lake-town with him. For choosing him over the quest, for choosing family over inheritance. At times, IMO, it feels as if Kili takes his brother for granted. They've always been together. Kili simply has no concept of being without his elder brother. Don't blame him...
|
|
|
CathrineB
Rohan
Dec 21 2014, 8:27pm
Post #21 of 61
(578 views)
Shortcut
|
I agree with the other posts here saying Fili died a heroic death. He sent his brother away and was clearly frightened once he realized he couldn't get out - yet he still told the others to get away from there. He never wanted anyone to save him, but themselves.
When I first saw the movie it all went by so fast so it helped watching it again tonight. This time i even think Fili have the better death scene than Kili. It's short, but wow that build up, that soundtrack used and the shock value. It's pretty damn well done. While Kili's drags on for too long. I adore Kili as much as Fili, but even I was thinking "Oh come die already" when that slow mo staring into each others eyes wouldn't end. 
But I disagree with most of you about Kili here though. You can't say he's not thinking about Fili anymore just because he dies protecting Tauriel because he doesn't really say anything. And leaving her there to fend for herself makes no sense. He was already there. Azog wasn't.
Still, overall I wish they (Fili and Kili) had died together and Kili's could have been better until they brought Tauriel back in (no hate for her either, but the love story... no thanks.)
|
|
|
marillaraina
Rohan
Dec 22 2014, 1:59am
Post #22 of 61
(520 views)
Shortcut
|
I agree with the other posts here saying Fili died a heroic death. He sent his brother away and was clearly frightened once he realized he couldn't get out - yet he still told the others to get away from there. He never wanted anyone to save him, but themselves. When I first saw the movie it all went by so fast so it helped watching it again tonight. This time i even think Fili have the better death scene than Kili. It's short, but wow that build up, that soundtrack used and the shock value. It's pretty damn well done. While Kili's drags on for too long. I adore Kili as much as Fili, but even I was thinking "Oh come die already" when that slow mo staring into each others eyes wouldn't end. But I disagree with most of you about Kili here though. You can't say he's not thinking about Fili anymore just because he dies protecting Tauriel because he doesn't really say anything. And leaving her there to fend for herself makes no sense. He was already there. Azog wasn't. Still, overall I wish they (Fili and Kili) had died together and Kili's could have been better until they brought Tauriel back in (no hate for her either, but the love story... no thanks.)
The scene didn't "drag" on that long imo, they only looked at each other for a couple seconds. :) And really, Kili is suffering, it wasn't an instant death. So if anything it kind of makes it more awful. He wasn't held up for Thorin to see but he was still held there helpless so Bolg could make sure he knew he couldn't do anything to stop his own death or hers(luckily Legolas came along). From what I could tell, from his expression, he died feeling he'd failed.
But anyway I don't think most, here anyway maybe on tumblr that bastion of maturity, think Kili wasn't thinking of Fili anymore. Some do but I think most people do know that it's entirely possible to be mourning one person while still fighting a battle and trying to save another.
(This post was edited by marillaraina on Dec 22 2014, 2:00am)
|
|
|
Arveldis
Rivendell
Dec 22 2014, 2:55am
Post #23 of 61
(511 views)
Shortcut
|
...he never even thanks his brother for staying back in Lake-town with him. For choosing him over the quest, for choosing family over inheritance. At times, IMO, it feels as if Kili takes his brother for granted.
While it's clear that Kili loves his brother, he never seems to really acknowledge just how much Fili does for him. Whenever Kili ends up in a tight situation big brother's always there to help sort things out. Maybe he's just had Fili's help for so long that it's second nature to him that he can't imagine Fili not bending over backwards for him. Either way, it seems a little ungrateful to me too, especially with the enormity of what Fili chose to give up.
(This post was edited by Arveldis on Dec 22 2014, 2:56am)
|
|
|
DisDwarfWoman
Rivendell
Dec 22 2014, 3:22am
Post #24 of 61
(504 views)
Shortcut
|
I think Fili is very self-sacrificing in general. He certainly doesn't act like he feels taken for granted or like he feels obligated to take care of Kili. Its sort of just who he is.
And this:
Maybe he's just had Fili's help for so long that it's second nature to him that he can't imagine Fili not bending over backwards for him.
I think this is spot on, I don't think its deliberate, its just how things are. Kili clearly cares about his brother (remember the stone giants part where they get separated?).
|
|
|
lionoferebor
Rohan
Dec 22 2014, 3:36am
Post #25 of 61
(500 views)
Shortcut
|
Fili does give of himself without expecting anything in return, and that is one of the things I admire about him. Still that, and the fact Fili is his brother, is not an excuse for Kili not to show a bit of gratitude.
I think Fili is very self-sacrificing in general. He certainly doesn't act like he feels taken for granted or like he feels obligated to take care of Kili. Its sort of just who he is. And this: Maybe he's just had Fili's help for so long that it's second nature to him that he can't imagine Fili not bending over backwards for him. I think this is spot on, I don't think its deliberate, its just how things are. Kili clearly cares about his brother (remember the stone giants part where they get separated?). |
|
|
|
|
1
