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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Battle of the Last Alliance

mirkwoodwanderer
Lorien

Dec 20 2014, 2:43pm

Post #1 of 21 (898 views)
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Battle of the Last Alliance Can't Post

A lot of us can't stand the idea that it would be all over now.

Now that we had a Battle of 5 Armies. It would also be great to make 2 new movies. It can be done

The Forging of the rings

and

the Battle of the Last Alliance.


xxxyyy
Rohan

Dec 20 2014, 3:08pm

Post #2 of 21 (533 views)
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Also, the hunt for Gollum [In reply to] Can't Post

Not an entire movie, but a nice 15/20 minutes flashback to be inserted in FOTR when Gandalf mentions it. It would be nice... I guess...
The battle of the last alliance I don't think it can be "extended" to a whole movie. Maybe they could just restore those pieces they cut of from FOTR (Gil-Galad and who knows what else).
As for the forging of the Rings, that would be great, I just LOVE EVERYTHING about them. They could also tell the story of the battle in the North and the fall of the Witch King.
In the mean time let's wait for the EE of BOTFA, there should be a lot more about those damn Rings.


mirkwoodwanderer
Lorien

Dec 20 2014, 3:15pm

Post #3 of 21 (528 views)
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we could have many more movies for years to come [In reply to] Can't Post

Who can be opposed to that ?


PredatoR
Bree


Dec 20 2014, 3:37pm

Post #4 of 21 (503 views)
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BotLA [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Not an entire movie, but a nice 15/20 minutes flashback to be inserted in FOTR when Gandalf mentions it. It would be nice... I guess...
The battle of the last alliance I don't think it can be "extended" to a whole movie. Maybe they could just restore those pieces they cut of from FOTR (Gil-Galad and who knows what else).
As for the forging of the Rings, that would be great, I just LOVE EVERYTHING about them. They could also tell the story of the battle in the North and the fall of the Witch King.
In the mean time let's wait for the EE of BOTFA, there should be a lot more about those damn Rings.


The rumor I remember that there is a material for Battle of The Last Alliance was around 40 to 50 minutes. Don't know if it is true. However I know one thing that there are a lot of Gil-Galad's scenes, not only his death.


mirkwoodwanderer
Lorien

Dec 20 2014, 3:40pm

Post #5 of 21 (491 views)
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Let's hope they make it into one movie [In reply to] Can't Post

Why stop now


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Dec 20 2014, 3:54pm

Post #6 of 21 (470 views)
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Rights [In reply to] Can't Post

Not sure who has the rights to the material as far as production and distribution.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


mirkwoodwanderer
Lorien

Dec 20 2014, 3:58pm

Post #7 of 21 (470 views)
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well.. it was in LotR movies... so [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Dec 20 2014, 4:14pm

Post #8 of 21 (452 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

but I don't know if there's enough to make it into an entire movie based alone on the appendices. Maybe so. But Im not sure still who has the distribution rights (I would guess WB) and how much of the backstory they can go into.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


DigificWriter
Lorien

Dec 20 2014, 4:26pm

Post #9 of 21 (460 views)
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I dont know about a Last Alliance movie [In reply to] Can't Post

Even if there is more material that already exists or that could be shot in order to create a film telling the story of the Last Alliance, I don't really see what narrative purpose it would serve to make such a film.

If Peter does indeed end up telling more stories as part of his cinematic interpretation of Middle-earth, it makes more sense, narratively, to resurrect the "bridge film" concept that was originally part of the Hobbit film project and center the storytelling on events that took place during the 60 years between The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Dec 20 2014, 4:37pm

Post #10 of 21 (447 views)
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Bridge film... [In reply to] Can't Post

I've often stated that I think that the exploits of Aragorn before the War of the Rings would make for an excellent bridge film(s).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


yannischatzi
The Shire

Dec 20 2014, 5:16pm

Post #11 of 21 (415 views)
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Great idea! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello everyone. I am new in this forum although I am following TORN for many years.

I think a film on the battle of the last alliance is a great idea. Personally I would love to see Middle Earth explored more on the big screen, so any film would be a welcome addition really.


SilentLion
Rivendell

Dec 20 2014, 5:38pm

Post #12 of 21 (409 views)
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I've always thought that the Downfall of Numenor [In reply to] Can't Post

Would make a good movie, perhaps interspersed with scenes from the "Mariners Wife" from Unfinished Tales, in a Godfather Part II-like fashion.

Think Christopher Tolkien isn't selling any of the remaining movie rights though.


DigificWriter
Lorien

Dec 20 2014, 6:04pm

Post #13 of 21 (403 views)
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Christopher Tolkien wont work with filmmakers... [In reply to] Can't Post

... so any hypothetical filmic return to ME by Peter and Co. will have to be based solely on whatever can be gleaned from the LotR Appendices or whatever else they can get their hands on by working with those members of the family who aren't opposed to what they've done.


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Dec 20 2014, 6:07pm

Post #14 of 21 (390 views)
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Yep [In reply to] Can't Post

Until Christopher passes I don't see any chance another ME film will be made. Royd on the other hand....

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


DigificWriter
Lorien

Dec 20 2014, 6:13pm

Post #15 of 21 (383 views)
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There's probably enough accessible material... [In reply to] Can't Post

... to do some "bridge films" between the filmic versions of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, but they would be strictly "derivative works" of what Tom Shippey described as "Tolkien as interpreted by Jackson", and might not fare well with 'critics'. However, I see no reason for these kinds of hypothetical projects to not be done if Peter and Co. decide they'd like to do them in a few years.


malickfan
Gondor


Dec 20 2014, 6:31pm

Post #16 of 21 (394 views)
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I doubt Christopher Tolkien's passing will make much difference personally [In reply to] Can't Post

Christopher Tolkien is legally a co-writer of The Silmarillion under Copyright law, and can make it a condition of his will that the rights aren't sold, in his will JRR Tolkien stated:


Quote
After asking that his personal effect be distributed among his family as his executors see fit, he sets up a trust with the remainder of his estate, to be shared equally among his children and their children after them. He also (wisely) urges the executors to keep his copyrights in the family if at all possible.

The one great exception to this are his 'literary assets' ("my library and all my manuscripts typescripts notes and all other articles connected with my work as an author"), which he entrusts (literally) to Christopher as Literary Executor, granting him the right to

"publish edit alter rewrite or complete any work of mine
which may be unpublished at my death or to destroy the whole
or any part or parts of any such unpublished works as he
in his absolute discretion may think fit and subject thereto"


(http://sacnoths.blogspot.co.uk/2009/12/tolkiens-will.html)


There is a poster on IMDB who claims relatives are lawyers specializing in Estate Law, I saved a couple of his posts, but I'm not an expert on copyright law so I have no idea how accurate s/he may be, but it is possible Christopher is not selling the rights because he can't (though some of this seems like guesswork to me):


Quote
1) CRRT is Tolkien's literary executor. As such, he was granted by JRRT total control over JRRT's unpublished manuscripts. He could burn them, edit them, rewrite them, publish them as is, or whatever he deemed best. JRRT had complete confidence in Christopher's judgement on these matters. Thank goodness he did NOT decide to burn the lot! What he will ultimately do with the remaining unpublished material is unknown, but he has probably made arrangements for them, possibly to donate them to a university collection, a la Marquette.

(2) CRRT is the executor/trustee of the Tolkien Estate and Trust. This is a clearly defined legal role: he is entrusted with carrying out JRRT's instructions in founding the Tolkien Estate (which is, confusingly, not the same thing as Tolkien's personal estate. You and I and most people when they depart this earth leave behind a personal estate of varying value, which is dispensed in accordance with a will if there is one. The Tolkien Estate and Trust however is a different kind of organization, a family estate trust, which is completely separate. However, the person who set it up (the settlor) stipulates what the estate trust will do and its operational parameters. The executor/trustee must follow these directives. He or she cannot override them. These organizations are audited and monitored for compliance..

CRRT's two roles are very different. In the first, he has considerable, virtually total, discretionary power. In the second, he has very little.

Now, PPP made the point that Tolkien sold the film rights to LOTR and The Hobbit to United Artists "because he needed the money." This is true, but misleading. WHY did he "need the money?" He was doing very well, thank you, since after his retirement from Oxford he was getting substantial income from royalties, and for the first time could provide his wife with pleasures that meant a lot to her (he moved to Bournemouth, where she enjoyed living in a resort setting and mixed with a less intellectual set. Edith never really felt comfortable in Oxford).

So why did he need a large sum of money? Not for himself, but to set up the Tolkien Estate and Trust. You need money to do this. He established trusts for each of his children and grandchildren (and made provisions, we can be sure, for ones not yet born), provided for a charitable arm of the Trust, and in a document usually called a trust deed he specified the purpose, activities and restrictions on the operation of the TE, to take effect on his demise. It's purpose, as the TE endlessly repeats, is to "promote and protect JRRT's literary legacy." We can be sure that came direct from JRRT himself, and it is likely -- because it is one of the purposes of establishing an estate trust for intellectual property -- that it also restricted sale of copyrights or other rights to any of his literary works.

This is a major reason why authors set up an estate trust before their death: to control their intellectual property. It's kind of ironic that in order to set up a mechanism to prevent sale of film or radio rights to his works, Tolkien had to sell the rights to some of his existing works -- but it's not really a contradiction. JRRT did view both TH and LOTR as "commercial" ventures (not in a negative sense), and said to friends that popular success had been surprisingly gratifying, as it had enabled him to give his wife a better life and for both of them to enjoy small pleasures that they would earlier have been unable to afford. But his other works, including and especially The Silmarillion, were another story. He authorized Christopher to burn it, but not to sell movie rights to it!

The trust deed that set up the TE is not a public document, so his exact instructions cannot be verified. However, it is a virtual certainty that he included prohibition on further sale of film rights, copyrights or authorization of commercial products. The TE board of directors cannot overturn its founder, and even when CRRT passes on to Valinor the next director/executor/trustee will have to follow JRRT's instructions as well. He or she does not have a choice.

Those who are hoping for some change of policy after CRRT's death are hoping in vain. Even if a band of film buffs succeed to the board of the TE, they will not be authorized to overrule their founder.

Beyond that, since under UK law Christopher is a joint author of the Sil, he can make it a condition in his own estate that the rights not be sold.

So expecting a change of policy is a vain enterprise. Legally, it can't happen. We will just have to wait for the material to go into the public domain, which it will -- someday.

Meanwhile, if anyone were keen to do it, further Middle-Earth films could be made from the stories in the appendices to LOTR. I doubt there's a market,



Quote
urther to the above, it's very significant (in law) that JRRT mentioned in his will that he wanted the rights to stay in the family, but these rights were not included in his personal estate at all. Appointing CRRT the literary executor did not transfer ownership to him, though it was indeed a vote of confidence.

So, what was up with that? Why mention "rights" at all?

In fact it is standard procedure in estate planning that, when a large part of the person's assets have been disposed of outside the will, that an allusion to it be made in the will, but without details. The reason for this is to prevent challenges to the will in the future. If a person made arrangements for disposition of assets and then, say a year or two later, made a will in which these were not mentioned, the will could be subsequently challenged in court as invalid because the person "forgot" tp mention his other assets and beneficiaries and thus was "not of sound mind." Don't laugh, these things happen fairly often when people receive no (or poor) legal advice. JRRT's will was made and signed only weeks before his death.

JRRT sold the rights to LOTR and Hobbit precisely in order to set up the estate trust that is now called the "Tolkien Estate and Trust." That's where the money from the sale went: to set up the trust funds and pay an estate trust lawyer to draw up the necessary trust deeds, etc. There were tax reasons above all for doing this; putting the income from the books (as well as the income from the sale of the rights) into trust funds reduced taxes on his estate and also income tax on his family members in the future. The exact way the estate trust will be run and what it can and cannot do is specified in the trust deed drawn up by JRRT with his lawyers, but unlike his will it is not a public document.

The fact that he alluded to his desire for the "rights" to stay in the family in his will (with no further information, except an earlier mention of setting up the trust) tells us pretty clearly that the estate trust covers these matters. The TE in all its public statements sounds like a broken record, saying its mandate is to preserve and promote JRRT's literary legacy -- a phrase that doubtless comes straight from the trust deed. Knowing how strongly Tolkien felt about "adaptations" we can be quite confident these are specifically prohibited for the duration of the copyright period. And the board cannot overrule what JRRT specified was to be done. Thus, a bevy of future board members who are film buffs will not be able to change the foundation documents.Their hands will be tied.



See these articles for more information:

http://nerdalicious.com.au/...lm-the-silmarillion/

http://www.theonering.net/...e-lord-of-the-rings/

http://www.worldcrunch.com/...3s10299/#.VJXAKF4i3A

http://www.theonering.net/...ate-want-to-protect/








(This post was edited by malickfan on Dec 20 2014, 6:35pm)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Dec 20 2014, 7:09pm

Post #17 of 21 (370 views)
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That's very interesting but the central point [In reply to] Can't Post

That the Tolkien Estate trust deed contains a prohibition on selling any further rights (under any circumstances) is entirely speculation.


malickfan
Gondor


Dec 20 2014, 7:20pm

Post #18 of 21 (365 views)
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Yes perfectly true [In reply to] Can't Post

Part of me is inclined to think Professor Tolkien may have put such a clause in the trust deed (if only down to his rather skeptical reception of early adaptions of his works in the 50-60's) but by his own admission he had much less attachment to the books than his fans (he sold the manuscripts and film rights willingly of course). But as the poster pointed out, it's not a public document so it's just guesswork

What does seem clear to me (personally) is that Christopher Tolkien would be likely to put such protection in place for The Silmarillion above the other works, or at the least set up a separate trust deed to keep the copyright in the family as much as possible.








Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Dec 20 2014, 7:24pm

Post #19 of 21 (363 views)
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It's possible. [In reply to] Can't Post

But, equally, as someone who had to draw on the financial value of his IP himself, we might speculate that ruling that out for his children/grandchildren under any and all circumstances might not have been the route he chose.

But it's all just speculation.


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Dec 20 2014, 8:45pm

Post #20 of 21 (338 views)
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I do have to agree [In reply to] Can't Post

That of anyone Christopher is most likely to do so. We will not know though until he passes most likely how things turn out. There's just not enough in the appendices alone I don't think to craft another ME film without adding things from the Sil. We will see.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


painjoiker
Grey Havens


Dec 21 2014, 6:08pm

Post #21 of 21 (282 views)
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There are tons of stuff in the appendices to make movies from! [In reply to] Can't Post

Much will be made up of course, but the basic stories are there, plus most characters fates are told in the main stories, so there might be much more to make stories from than it looks at first sight. And even when making up new stuff to fill out the stories one can base them off of parts of the book that were not used in the movies. When reading LotR there are tons of plot-points that went unused, that could be used when making other stories based on the appendices which will make the made up stuff more in style of Tolkien Smile

This is not necessarily something I would want, but it is something that is possible, and unless there are some right issues I don't know about I am sure someone involved are thinking of doing something like this!

Vocalist of the progressive doom rock band Mater Thallium.

 
 

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