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The Grey Elf
Grey Havens
Dec 18 2014, 3:04pm
Post #1 of 21
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Re Thranduil (*SPOILER*)
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Could anyone clarify something for me?
It's strongly suggested, via Legolas' remarks to Tauriel at Gundabad, that Thranduil's isolationist mindset may stem from the loss iof his wife in the elves' long ago attack on that enemy stronghold. When Thranduil is having his confrontation with Tauriel in Dale, I may have misheard or just plain missed what Legolas says to his father that causes Thrandy to look so stricken right before they turn away from him. Was it something to do with Leggy's mother? Otherwise, Thranduil's knifed expression doesn't make any sense to me (especially given the fact that the movies up to this point have failed to establish exactly what kind of relationship exists between Thranduil and Legolas).
Thanks for any insights!
"If not us, who? If not now, when?" HeforShe
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Dec 18 2014, 3:16pm
Post #2 of 21
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He says something along the lines of...
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"If you hurt her [Tauriel], you're going to have to kill me."
(This post was edited by BlackFox on Dec 18 2014, 3:17pm)
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misspoptart
The Shire
Dec 18 2014, 3:23pm
Post #3 of 21
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I was going to start a new topic
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But I think it's just as well to piggy back on this one -
I have the unfortunate circumstance of watching the film with Turkish subs (I live in Istanbul) and there's no English for the Elvish and Black Speech spoken :( I understand enough about the situations (with a hint of Turkish language skills also), but if anyone would be so kind as to summarize some of the conversations in Elvish I would be most grateful. Thanks!
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Dec 18 2014, 3:27pm
Post #4 of 21
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I have to go back and watch it again...
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...and again.
Legolas has been my favorite character since I read the books in 1978. His connection to the natural world (and pretty much everything he says) resonates with me.
I liked Thranduil quite a lot when I read the Hobbit (right before I read LOTR). I was playing a lot of D&D at the time, and the DM had suggested "play an Elf", which I continued to do, having discovered my Archetype.
So, Thranduil and Legolas, yeah!
I always felt there was some sort of conflict between them. this may have been me just projecting my own life somewhat onto fictional characters, left vague enough for any reader to do that.
I probably need to go read The Hobbit again now.
There is a neat history of Thranduil here: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Thranduil
"In S.A. 3434 Thranduil followed his father, and some thirty thousand lightly armed Elves in the War of the Last Alliance. In the Battle of Dagorlad Oropher was slain with the greater part of his people but his son survived."
"With the return of Sauron around T.A. 1050 southern Greenwood became increasingly dangerous, evil creatures like great spiders came to dwell in it and soon it began to be called as "Mirkwood".[4] Thranduil's folk retreated to the northeastern corner of the forest, where they fortified themselves near the Forest River and established the Elvenking's Halls."
So he's lost his family (Tolkien does not mention his wife anywhere that I know of, and the film takes that in a plausible direction), retreated to the woods, and been fighting off the forces of Darkness from a stronghold that is being overrun, in a world in which Elves are becoming ever more irrelevant.
I feel for him.
Really, I have to see the film again.
I love the films, but I feel that PJ resonates with Hobbits and Dwarves and doesn't ... quite... get... the Elves. I've noticed that in other tales and artowrks; you can tell what archetype the author/artist resonates with.
"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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Me85
Rivendell
Dec 18 2014, 5:45pm
Post #5 of 21
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"If you hurt her [Tauriel], you're going to have to kill me."
I really did not like how he so easily chose her side. It seems like Legolas is just fine with Tauriel threatening his father's/their king's life. Thranduil only threatened her because she did it first.
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Me85
Rivendell
Dec 18 2014, 6:18pm
Post #7 of 21
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I could very well be that Legolas didn't see that part but i don't know...somehow i think he at least has an idea what happened. I think Thranduil would not have put that knife on her throat unless he was threatened.
(This post was edited by Me85 on Dec 18 2014, 6:26pm)
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Cillendor
Lorien
Dec 18 2014, 7:13pm
Post #8 of 21
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Thranduil is a conflicting character for me. I absolutely love how Lee Pace portrayed him. He is my favorite Elf in all six films. But I absolutely detest what the writers did to his backstory. I understand the reason. His story is only explained in Unfinished Tales, and PJ & Co. don't have access to that book due to the copyright. But Thranduil's character really suffered from this silly story they invented about his wife dying fighting Orcs in Gundabad and he himself somehow getting a nasty wound fighting dragons in the North. It makes little sense. The true story of him witnessing his father's death at the Battle of the Last Alliance explains so much better why he doesn't want to leave Mirkwood anymore. It explains so much better why he is so wary of Sauron's return. What we currently have is a confusing fanfic written to replace the canon since PJ couldn't legally use it. It is just disappointing.
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shadowdog
Rohan
Dec 18 2014, 8:08pm
Post #9 of 21
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fanfic to show that Thranduil became a recluse because of a death of someone close to him? Since they couldn't use the story told in Unfinished Tales, they used the closest version they could legally put in the film. I see nothing wrong with that, especially since most who will go to see the film will not be familiar with the backstory in a book few have read.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 18 2014, 11:22pm
Post #10 of 21
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They just stole Elrond's backstory and gave it to Thranduil instead.
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The story they're using for Thranduil is pretty reminiscent of Elrond's in the book, wouldn't you say? His wife was captured and tortured by orcs and then sailed West without him, and his sons join up with Arathorn (Aragorn's father) and the Rangers of the North to hunt orcs because "they never forgot her torment".
Since they didn't use Elrond's backstory or show Elladan and Elrohir in these films, but it's material they have rights to, they just shifted them to a different set of characters - Thranduil and his son. I don't think it's so much fanfic as transference, and it's not the first time they've traded lines or plot points between characters.
Silverlode
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"Dark is the water of Kheled-zāram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nāla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dūm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."
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The Ranger Anduiel
The Shire
Dec 19 2014, 12:12am
Post #11 of 21
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When this whole " my mother died there" started that is all I could think! I actually said out loud " no! That is what happend with Celebrķan and she didn't die!" I realize it is a movie and not the book verse but I found it disrespectful to both Elrond and Arwen's back stories. I am honestly at a loss over the whole "Mother" theme. Maybe I am missing something but it just seems out there.
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Thranduiliel
Bree
Dec 19 2014, 12:12am
Post #12 of 21
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You see I heard it differently
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"If you hurt her [Tauriel], you're going to have to kill me."
...and I'm happy to be corrected, as I thought he threatened to kill Thranduil if he hurt Tauriel. This on the back of Tauriel daring to aim her arrow at her king for his decision to leave after losing yet more of his kin left me feeling very irked for the rest of the film.
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Laineth
Lorien
Dec 19 2014, 3:42am
Post #13 of 21
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Yes! Some Legolas love! Sometimes it feels like no one else on here likes him, much less love him. 
Personally, I've loved the films' portrayal of the elves. We've gotten a lot of depth with little screen time.
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Dec 19 2014, 10:26am
Post #14 of 21
(898 views)
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We both have a(nother) reason to see the film again then. 
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Dec 19 2014, 1:47pm
Post #15 of 21
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I think maybe a lot of fans are coming from the film direction, or if they're bookfans, they're going "bah, humbug, just another pretty face"... and while I did see an intriguing illustration of him before I read the book (a sort of lean, wiry Luke Skywalkerish blond archer), it was the lines in the book that got me (and that bit about riding Arod the warhorse of Rohan with no bridle or saddle, that tied it).
I waxed endlessly eloquent about it all here: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1722626/1/That-Darn-Elf-a-random-musing
I thought a bit about where else I've seen versions of that archetype, and found a few surprises (Mowgli???, is that you????)
"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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The Grey Elf
Grey Havens
Dec 20 2014, 12:34pm
Post #17 of 21
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To me, it's of lesser importance where this backstory came from than
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the short shrift it was given. The whole Thranduil/Legolas/Tauriel dynamic is unconvincing and a disappointment. Perhaps if less time has been given in both DOS and BOTFA to endless Orc smack downs and more to sculpting the characters, it would actually be as moving and meaningful as they seemed to intend it.
"If not us, who? If not now, when?" HeforShe
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Laineth
Lorien
Dec 22 2014, 3:03am
Post #18 of 21
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Thanks for the link, that was an interesting read. :)
I watched the films before I read the books, so Orlando's Legolas is how I see him. He interested me in the film, and I fell in love with him in the book. :)
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Dec 23 2014, 6:18pm
Post #19 of 21
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you read the book!
and I'm still stuck being a fan of that Orli guy forever...........
"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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kiwifan
Rohan
Jan 17 2015, 8:54pm
Post #21 of 21
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This is interesting indeed --- thank you for providing the link!//
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" - 
) 
Thranduil Appreciation. Threadcount: 
