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Elendil's power
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Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Dec 18 2014, 5:43pm

Post #1 of 33 (1687 views)
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Elendil's power Can't Post

Could he defeat beings like the nazguls?


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Dec 18 2014, 8:41pm

Post #2 of 33 (1529 views)
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Well... He and [In reply to] Can't Post

Gil-galad defeated Sauron, so I would give an unqualified YES!

Remember that Gandalf fought all nine Nazgul to a draw.
Also Aragorn fought off five Nazgul at Amon Sul.

So a Nazgul's 'physical' power is in question.

“Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.”
But, sneaking off in daylight takes much more cunning.



Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 18 2014, 8:45pm

Post #3 of 33 (1526 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure that his battle prowess and skill is ever elaborated upon, but Gil-galad and Elendil double-teamed Sauron and took him down-- with the Ring--,so I'd say he'd be handy to have in a battle.Wink Maybe someone more learned can give you a reference to something I may have missed.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Dec 18 2014, 10:53pm

Post #4 of 33 (1493 views)
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The only other instance [In reply to] Can't Post

besides the ‘double-team’ on Orodruin, that I can think of, would be the Battle of Dagorlad a few years earlier where Elendil led the Men and Gil-galad led the Elves. But I know of no singular combat conquests by Elendil. Nevertheless he and Narsil must have been quite formidable, and I want him on my side, I do!!

“Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.”
But, sneaking off in daylight takes much more cunning.



Gianna
Rohan


Dec 19 2014, 1:16am

Post #5 of 33 (1494 views)
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I'm not sure he could. [In reply to] Can't Post

He did indeed defeat Sauron at the Last Alliance, but that was because he happened to cut off the finger with the Ring on it. The Nazgul couldn't be killed by a living man, however, so I don't believe he could have won against a Ringwraith.

~There's some good left in this world. And it's worth fighting for.~


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 19 2014, 2:55am

Post #6 of 33 (1492 views)
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You also have the prophecy for the Witch King [In reply to] Can't Post

Elendil was most definitely a man,

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Dec 19 2014, 12:10pm

Post #7 of 33 (1476 views)
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He is a man, but not an ordinary man [In reply to] Can't Post

Doesn'r numenorean of his statue, possess some powers beyound a ordinary man? Aragorn, as other have posted her managed to fend of the nazguls in FOTR. Elendil for sure has a greater strength and abilities than Aragorn I supposed.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 19 2014, 2:06pm

Post #8 of 33 (1469 views)
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Yes, I think so too [In reply to] Can't Post

Numenorians were more powerful, however, I don't think that it would be enough. They didn't exactly have magical powers, but longer lifespans, greatest stature/strength, and perhaps more perceptive minds.

I think Aragorn is supposed to be a very 'noble' Numenorian and represent the ultimate goodiif what they could have been. Still, he'd be a man, and knowing how to take falls out, (a Halfling and Woman kill the WK{people argue over who actually did it-- did Merry help, or was he a man too?}) I'd say it couldn't happen any other way.

Someone in our book discussions had this great idea. They said that really, the story is just that, and some story elements and phrases are not there To do anything; only to set a mood. by wondering why they are there, we ask a questions Tolkien never intended to be answered. We flatter Tolkien when we as literal questions as if it were real. For a while, we can get away with it because Tolkien added so much detail, but eventually, there will come a time where we have to admit it's lack if full depth, and realise it is all just a story.

Sad, I know, but nothing stops us from coming up with our own answers! Smile

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Dec 19 2014, 6:02pm

Post #9 of 33 (1445 views)
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The Witch-King was killed by a woman! [In reply to] Can't Post

... and a Hobbit!


Yes, the Nazgul were very formidable and probably would defeat most Men, but their leader was killed by Eowyn (with an assist from Merry).

The Witch-King prophecy came at a later time, after he sacked the Annuminas and was chased by the Earnur, the last king of Gondor. Before then, there was no prophecy about him not being slain by a man.

At any rate, I think Elendil likely would have handled the Witch King, though it would be close. We could debate whether prophecy would have applied to Elendil, though.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Dec 19 2014, 7:22pm

Post #10 of 33 (1444 views)
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So, the original question was [In reply to] Can't Post

Could he [Elendil] defeat beings like the nazguls?

First of all Glorfindel’s prophesy was that the Witch-king would not fall by the hand of man, appears to apply to only the Witch-king, not the other eight Nazgul. Thus yes, Elendil could kill any of the Eight, in my opinion.

Defeat or Kill? As the question asks could he defeat?. Were not the entire Nine ‘defeated’ by Aragorn and Glorfindel at the Ford of Rivendell? (Ok, a little River-help here.)

Did not Aragorn ‘defeat’ five at Weathertop?
Did not Elendil with Gil-galad ‘defeat’ (“kill”) Sauron.

Thus Elendil, in my opinion, could ‘defeat’ any Nazgul, including the Witch-king.

“Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.”
But, sneaking off in daylight takes much more cunning.



Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Dec 19 2014, 11:12pm

Post #11 of 33 (1428 views)
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Yes I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

Elendil should have the strength and ability to destroy the nazguls. Elrond in BOFA killed some of them, even though they got ressurrected back to life by Sauron. Numenoreans wouldn't be scared and flee in terror like most mortal men does. It would be the opposite. Al Pharazon with his mighty army made the wraiths abandon their master so.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Dec 20 2014, 12:13am

Post #12 of 33 (1417 views)
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Oh my.. [In reply to] Can't Post

There were Nazguls at BOFA?

Would that make it the Battle of Six Armies?
Or, counting the Great Eagles - the Battle of Seven Armies?
Or, counting Beorn. . . oh, nevermind...Wink

CrazyCrazyCrazyCrazy

“Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.”
But, sneaking off in daylight takes much more cunning.



Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Dec 20 2014, 12:16am

Post #13 of 33 (1408 views)
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Opss!! [In reply to] Can't Post

You haven't seen the movie yet? Sorry for that!Shocked


squire
Half-elven


Dec 20 2014, 1:13am

Post #14 of 33 (1424 views)
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Not exactly [In reply to] Can't Post

In the book, neither Elrond nor the Nazgul were engaged in battle, whether at Erebor or at the Necromancer's castle.

I can't answer for the film, of course.

On the original question, whether Elendil could defeat "beings like the Nazguls", it's hard to say for a couple of reasons. The primary reason is that Elendil and the Nazgul inhabit separate realms of creation in Tolkien's mythology; their paths were never meant to cross. The closest episodes we see to a Numenorean lord confronting a ringwraith are in the feud between Earnur, King of Gondor, and the Witchking of Angmar. In the first confrontation, it is reported that Earnur "would have withstood" the demon but his horse panicked and galloped away to the king's humiliation; 70 years later the Witchking taunted and challenged Earnur into a single combat duel. The last son of Numenor in the South-kingdom rode off recklessly and was never seen again, presumably done in by treachery.

Now, Earnur is compared in the text to Boromir of the Fellowship, as brave but fatally rash at times; whereas Erendil is often cited as the ancestor and model for Aragorn. Aragorn feared the Nazgul but could withstand their terror to the extent that he did at Weathertop. But a later note from Tolkien points out that the Nazgul withdrew for their own reasons more than they were repelled by the ranger's prowess with a torch.

We should remember that the Nazgul are boojums of the first order - that is, they prefer not to fight hand to hand but instead rely on the almost insuperable fear they arouse in their enemies. The only exception we know is when the Witchking actually breaks Eowyn's arm with a mace - quite out of character. To his credit as a wraith, he makes up for the error with his speech about how he won't be killing her - although he could - but will torment her to madness instead (presumable Earnur's fate as well).

What then would Elendil do? The best I can imagine, in a classic "Tolkien is just a board game where characters have numerical power points" exercise, is that Elendil, even nobler than Aragorn and a far sight more so than Earnur, would face a Nazgul down and dare him to do his worst. Should it come to swordplay rather than vitriol and blood-curdling threats, we should remember that even the Men of Arnor were capable of making knives that would "break the spell" that held the undead wraith's physical beings to their wills - as Merry can testify. Surely Elendil would be packing one or two of these equalizers in any (unlikely, to be sure) situation that promised a showdown between the hero of the Second Age, and the villains of the Third. And a quick shot of athelas would bring him round after any consequent paralysis or Black Breath. "Monarch, heal thyself," you might say.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Dec 20 2014, 3:35am

Post #15 of 33 (1409 views)
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I took the original question [In reply to] Can't Post

 as more of a TORn ‘Arena’ type query, so yes, although the Nazgul and Elendil inhabit different ‘realms of creation’ a comparison can nonetheless be made, as we are all wont to do.

As for weapons, Narsil was forged by Telchar so I’m not sure if it would have the necessary wherewithal to ‘break the spell’ that held a Nazgul’s physical identity together; such as Merry’s apparently insignificant little sword had (up to the point of a sneak stab on the Pelennor).

Apparently(?) Jackson has taken his usual liberties with the written word and included Elrond and Nazgul at the BOFA (the more action the more merrier the more $). Wink

“Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.”
But, sneaking off in daylight takes much more cunning.



Bracegirdle
Valinor


Dec 20 2014, 3:40am

Post #16 of 33 (1397 views)
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Oh, and no problem Vic [In reply to] Can't Post

A little spoiler here and there - no big deal. SmileSmile

“Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.”
But, sneaking off in daylight takes much more cunning.



Meneldor
Valinor


Dec 20 2014, 5:31am

Post #17 of 33 (1409 views)
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MINOR SPOILER to clear up your misunderstanding [In reply to] Can't Post

They weren't at the actual battle. They were in the movie titled BOTFA.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


Plurmo
Rohan

Dec 20 2014, 7:32am

Post #18 of 33 (1395 views)
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An argument in Half. [In reply to] Can't Post

While I think that Elendil could do what Merry did with the Westernesse blade and break a Nazgul's invisible body into pieces, rendering him destroyed (like Sauron was at the Siege of Barad-dûr,) I don't believe he could extinguish his spirit, like Éowyn seems to have done to the Witch King. Not while the One Ring existed.

It is my perception that in spiritual terms Éowyn is half a wraith herself, the other half being so strong that she would pass for a wholesome person to those without the eye to see the full extent of the darkness the years of suffering brought her, as Aragorn (and Gandalf) saw.

So, my view is that Éowyn, being the rarest person, partly made of strong light, partly of deep darkness as only a mortally tormented yet still fierce noble Woman warrior could be, was a mighty black swan in the path of the Witch King. One that would not be defeated by his threats under the black breath. One that could strike his unknitted body hard, both in the visible world, and in the Wraith World, at the same time.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Dec 20 2014, 12:56pm

Post #19 of 33 (1389 views)
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Ah, I get it. Thanks Meneldor! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

“Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.”
But, sneaking off in daylight takes much more cunning.



SilentLion
Rivendell

Dec 20 2014, 8:31pm

Post #20 of 33 (1380 views)
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But the proohecy had not yet been made when Elendil was still alive [In reply to] Can't Post

And remember how it was phrased: "Not by the hand of a man will he fall."
It wasn't that he couldn't be killed by a man, but that he wouldn't be. In the right setting (one-on-one combat), with the right opponent (Elendil, the strongest, most noble human of the Second Age), with the right weaponry (the particular weapon that Merry had played an important role), I would say that Elendil would be more than a match for any of the Nazgul, but that particular encounter was never fated to happen.


Meneldor
Valinor


Dec 21 2014, 3:56am

Post #21 of 33 (1379 views)
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I'm trying to remember if Tolkien described Eowyn as "fey." [In reply to] Can't Post

That could be interpreted as her having a presence in the spirit world of wraiths, at least during a few moments of anguish as her world collapsed around her at Pelennor Fields.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 21 2014, 4:27am

Post #22 of 33 (1383 views)
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I always thought 'fey' meant.. [In reply to] Can't Post

'Lost in the moment to a total abandon of emotion'. A more polite way of saying 'gone cracked'!

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Meneldor
Valinor


Dec 21 2014, 4:56am

Post #23 of 33 (1388 views)
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I believe Tolkien would use it more in the manner of Arthurian legends [In reply to] Can't Post

with characters like Morgan le Fey. She was far more otherworldly than "gone cracked." At least, in most versions of the tale!


Just dragged out the OED, which says, strange, otherworldly, whimsical, and clairvoyant. Also, (this one surprised me), fated to die.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


squire
Half-elven


Dec 21 2014, 5:58am

Post #24 of 33 (1390 views)
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Aragorn, Denethor, Theoden, and Eomer - but not Eowyn [In reply to] Can't Post

All are described as 'fey' at one point or another. What you may be remembering is that it's Eowyn, along with Eomer, who uses the term to describe Aragorn in his need to walk the Paths of the Dead.

As intriguing and creative as the idea is - another new one after all these years, another chime for the RR! - I don't see Eowyn's grief and depression as actually putting her in the 'wraith world' and thus empowering her against the witch-king. Had she been thus visible to the Nazgul in the way Frodo was while wearing the Ring, the demon would not have been amazed and daunted by the revelation of her sex.

I have always favored her status as a loving and fundamentally innocent virgin as the key to her unlikely triumph.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


a.s.
Valinor


Dec 21 2014, 3:29pm

Post #25 of 33 (1374 views)
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and Frodo [In reply to] Can't Post

Not being argumentative, just saying that I don't think Tolkien used the word "fey" to mean "of fairie" or "otherworldly", as Frodo's behavior is described as "fey" from Sam's point of view (at least once, maybe more not sure):


Dread was round him, and enemies before him in the pass, and his master was in a fey mood running heedlessly to meet them. (Shelob's Lair).


Which Hammond and Scull comment on in LOTR Reader's Companion in this specific portion of text as "a fey mood"--Fey 'overexcited or elated, as formerly associated with the state of mind of a person about to die' (Concise OED)."


Not sure what this explains about the use elsewhere, but its use everywhere I can think of off the top of my head, does seem to fit in with the older definition of "the state of mind of a person about to die".


a.s.

"an seileachan"


Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.



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