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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Observations from a second viewing (all spoilery)
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Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Dec 18 2014, 3:56am

Post #1 of 45 (3482 views)
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Observations from a second viewing (all spoilery) Can't Post

Just a few thoughts and observations from my second viewing. Feel free to add more geeky observations in this thread too. Smile

We heard a lot during the DOS promotions about "fathers and sons", but I think that theme was even stronger in this film, as the storylines came to their conclusions:

Bard and Bain work together to kill Smaug.

Thranduil and Legolas, at first opposed, end by coming to a sort of understanding.

Thorin treats Fili as heir apparent in this movie, and though there's not a lot of dialogue, actions speak louder than words. I paid a lot of attention to Fili this time around, and I noticed that he plays a more key role than might first appear.

  • When Bilbo greets the Laketown dwarves and warns them of Thorin's dragon-sickness, it's Fili who looks most concerned and runs ahead to find him.
  • When Thorin sees him, he throws the jewel to Fili, welcomes his "sister-sons", and then makes his speech about the great treasure of Erebor for Fili's benefit, as the one who will inherit.
  • Fili moves to prevent Thorin from throwing Bilbo off the wall
  • I think it might be Fili who says he's going out to fight and begins to rally the dwarves until Thorin commands them to stand down (though most of that line happens while the camera is still focused on Thorin)
  • Thorin takes "his best warriors" with him up Ravenhill - Fili, Kili, and Dwalin.
  • Thorin tells Fili to go scout out the tower position and to take his brother (specifically putting Fili in charge rather than speaking to them equally)
  • Fili, as the one in charge of the recon expediction, is the one who tells Kili to take the lower tunnels, which initially keeps him from being captured


The dwarves take off their armor after Thorin tells them to stand down and not to fight when the orcs arrive. Thorin is still wearing his crown after that, but not his golden armor, and none of the other dwarves are wearing theirs either - they're all just in chain mail after that.

Thorin refers to the necklace that Thranduil wants as being "the stones of Lasgalen". Eryn Galen (Greenwood) was the original name for Mirkwood before the Necromancer poisoned it. Eryn Lasgalen (Wood of Greenleaves) is the name that Thranduil and Celeborn later give to Mirkwood after Sauron is destroyed. In addition to being a little nod to wider mythology, it also indicates that Thorin knows the necklace belongs to Thranduil by right - or he likely would not call it by that name.

For those who have been upset about the brief appearances of the the Eagles and Beorn - the army they attack is not Azog's army before the Gate; it's the Gundabad army coming in from the north - and they take them all out by themselves. The Dwarves, Elves, and Men were barely hanging on at that point, trying to hold their own against the first army. So yes, it was too brief, but yes, they also saved the day.

I agree with those who say PJ's cameo may be the Laketowner in grey who gets up on the food cart to hand it out to the crowd. It's really a blink-and-you'll-miss-it one, though. There are no direct shots of his face.

On the topic of blood and guts:

All the closeups of fallen warriors (including fallen Elves) show them in pools of red blood.

When Legolas throws Orcrist into the orc that is attacking Thorin, when he pulls it out, it has black blood on the blade.

When Thorin kills Azog and stumbles to the edge of the waterfall to look down on the battlefield, a section of the waterfall turns black with Azog's blood running under the ice, and in the later overhead shots you can also see the blood spreading out under the surface. Shocked

Silverlode



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"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



(This post was edited by Silverlode on Dec 18 2014, 5:38am)


ecthelionsbeard
Lorien

Dec 18 2014, 4:02am

Post #2 of 45 (2613 views)
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Another interesting thought.. [In reply to] Can't Post

I was wondering what the mechanism or device was that allowed Thorin to 'randomly' snap out of his descent into gold madness. Was it sure will power? (fine but that's not very clever writing) And then I remembered Balin's earlier exchange with Bilbo about how if he gave him the Arkenstone, it would make him even worse. In thinking upon that, it occurred to me that the device that allowed Thorin to snap out of his madness was bilbo stealing the Arkenstone from him and never allowing Thorin access to it. As Balin implied, if Thorin had found the sacred stone, his madness would have likely destroyed him altogether. Bilbo had less screen time in this movie than the other two, but his role was more significant than ever to the plot.


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Dec 18 2014, 4:09am

Post #3 of 45 (2515 views)
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I've only seen it once so far... [In reply to] Can't Post

... and totally missed the journey of Orcrist...

wait, is that Orcrist that Legolas just threw....?????????????

"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.





Cirashala
Valinor


Dec 18 2014, 4:29am

Post #4 of 45 (2561 views)
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another observation about Fili (thanks for compiling this for us!) [In reply to] Can't Post

When Thorin does his pretty "sister-sons" speech, Fili's eyes widen as far as they go in complete shock, but also worry and fear- I think he knows EXACTLY what sickness Bilbo meant, and has more than heard of Thror's dragon sickness (as opposed to Kili's slightly more confusion initially).

I think, out of the Laketown dwarves, FILI is the first one to recognize exactly what it is- the same sickness that took Thror, and I think it utterly terrifies him to see that in Thorin. Unsure

Also, when they show Fili being dragged out by Azog, you can see blood on the side of his face, and I think I recalled a bruise on the other side- it didn't show it, but he clearly fought back before being overwhelmed Evil I was hoping they'd show that, but it does kind of ruin the suspense and shock of his capture...

Glad he didn't go out like a wimp though (but the waver in his voice when he says, "No" clearly indicates that he was in fact very frightened). And that's fine, in fact highly believable I think, that he would be. Warriors in that situation would be terrified- they'd have hearts of stone if they weren't! And it also shows his youth- he's a brave, fine dwarf warrior and definitely king material- but he's still young, and forever will be. Frown But overall I think he still died with dignity.

I also noticed that Thorin ever so slightly (almost imperceptibly) shakes his head no at him right before he dies- I think he's telling him to die like an Heir of Durin, and not to be afraid Evil He's a king, but he's also Fili's uncle- and it was lovely to see that bond in that moment.

And Dwalin- you can tell he really loves Fili too, because when he's stabbed he looks away- he can't bear to watch him die Frown I think Dwalin is as much of an uncle to them as Thorin is, even if he's really a cousin by blood...



Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Dec 18 2014, 4:33am

Post #5 of 45 (2519 views)
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Thorin [In reply to] Can't Post

That little "no" shake of his head was hearbreaking. And Dwalin's turning aside to not look was as well. There was real emotion there in that scene for both of them.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


syameese
Bree

Dec 18 2014, 4:49am

Post #6 of 45 (2485 views)
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Bilbo and Balin [In reply to] Can't Post

I loved Balin's little raise of his eyebrows when he mentions it would be better if the Arkenstone remained unfound. It certainly suggested to me that he suspected Bilbo may have had some idea of its whereabouts.


tarasaurus
Rohan


Dec 18 2014, 5:25am

Post #7 of 45 (2449 views)
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Azog's blood [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, I actually noticed that detail with Azog's blood under the ice, but for some reason I thought it was the ice melting! LOL, I was wondering why only a part of it darkened. That makes much more sense and it such a cool detail, as morbid as that sounds. I don't remember the overhead shot of it, but I'm due for my second viewing so I'll be on the look-out for stuff I missed the first time around.


Avandel
Half-elven


Dec 18 2014, 5:40am

Post #8 of 45 (2396 views)
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Wow, thanks for posting these observations! [In reply to] Can't Post

Because I think I pretty much missed all this - too much to take it all in. But hoping to sneak in a second view tomorrow night.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Dec 18 2014, 6:01am

Post #9 of 45 (2605 views)
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A followup thought... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thinking more about the "stones of Lasgalen", it occurs to me that since Lasgalen means "greenleaves", and Legolas is referred to as Legolas Greenleaf, the writers may have decided that Lasgalen is essentially the name of Thranduil's royal house, in other words his family name - making the necklace possibly part of the "crown jewels", for lack of a better term.

If that was the line of thinking, no wonder Thranduil wants them back enough to go to war for them. It's not only sentimental value (assuming they were for/worn by Legolas' mother) - it's an insult to have one's royal emblems withheld from him by dwarves and essentially held for ransom.

Silverlode



Want a LOTR Anniversary footer of your own? Get one here!

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Cirashala
Valinor


Dec 18 2014, 6:05am

Post #10 of 45 (2380 views)
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GREAT theory [In reply to] Can't Post

And if that's true....

Then Thranduil and Thorin's confrontation over the Arkenstone is really the pot calling the kettle black....

Ya know, I keep saying that those two could be best buds if they didn't hate each other so darn much Angelic

Cool



thomasofrohan
Lorien

Dec 18 2014, 6:08am

Post #11 of 45 (2399 views)
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Given their importance, it struck me as odd that... [In reply to] Can't Post

There's no resolution for the gems that Thranduil comes to claim. I suppose we can assume that his priorities change after the battle begins (there's no time to be worrying about any riches when you have orcs swinging at you), but does he still demand to receive them afterwards? I'm hoping something was left for the EE.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Dec 18 2014, 6:17am

Post #12 of 45 (2382 views)
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Like the Laketown restitution... [In reply to] Can't Post

one is left to assume that Dain (or Balin, as senior remaining member of the Company) made the payments that were promised. It would take some time to sort out a 14th share of the "profits" and hand it over, so all that might likely have been still in progress when Bilbo left.

But it would be nice to see a little something about that in the EE.

Silverlode



Want a LOTR Anniversary footer of your own? Get one here!

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



thomasofrohan
Lorien

Dec 18 2014, 6:24am

Post #13 of 45 (2397 views)
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Given how Dain treats Thranduil during their confrontation... [In reply to] Can't Post

One has to wonder if he was open to the idea of handing out payments to an elf. Wink


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Dec 18 2014, 6:46am

Post #14 of 45 (2379 views)
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But it's a matter of honor [In reply to] Can't Post

as Bilbo pointed out to Thorin. Thorin gave his word before witnesses. It would be dishonoring to his memory to ignore that after his death, just as it was a betrayal of his own honor to ignore it during his lifetime.

Which isn't to say Dain wouldn't be making some choice comments during the exchange, of course. Wink

Silverlode



Want a LOTR Anniversary footer of your own? Get one here!

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Avandel
Half-elven


Dec 18 2014, 7:40am

Post #15 of 45 (2325 views)
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But [In reply to] Can't Post

AUJ mentions that it was said the dwarves - possibly - were "denied their rightful pay" tho no-one really seems to know how things went downhill.

Realistically, after everything that has happened it would be mean-spirited not to give the gems back, but still leaves things possibly with the dwarves having gotten the short end of the stick of whatever the original bargain was. So I don't see that honor per se is at stake here, only whether it is noble and wise to just put an end to it, no matter what really happened.

As for Thorin and Laketown, one of the things I appreciate the most was the writers FINALLY pointing out that the situation at Laketown was not that kindly re the dwarves, and the duress they were under, and as Thorin points out, they were only helped because the dwarves had something the Laketowners wanted. Only Bard, ultimately, was freely kind. But he was paid, initially.

So for me it does come down to Thorin's word, and whether to be noble, or not.
Which Thorin won't be, not then. But all things considered and with everyone in ME except Beorn being pretty unhelpful, + all these elves at the door, even if Thorin were sane I could not blame him for feeling pretty put upon.


Roheryn
Tol Eressea

Dec 18 2014, 10:33am

Post #16 of 45 (2278 views)
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Great observations, Silverlode. [In reply to] Can't Post

I hadn't quite put that all together about Fili, but you're spot-on. Thorin treats him as his heir, and he's a bit more indulgent with Kili.

I noticed the spread of Azog's blood under the ice too. Somehow that was rather a shocking visual, after several other shocking and hard-to-watch visuals (I'm with Dwalin; I closed my eyes too!). And the pools of blood on the snow around the slain -- whatever their race -- is admittedly more realistic than *not* having the blood, but also of course more disturbing. I don't think we've seen this much blood in any other M-e battle before. Maybe a lot of Orc blood at Azanulbizar, but that's the beauty of it being black: it doesn't show up against black rocks. It does, however, show up starkly against snow and ice. I bet all the blood was really pushing the limits of the PG-13 rating.

Thanks for the insights on "Lasgalen" -- I hadn't made out what he said there, and what a great geeky nod to the mythology that is.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Dec 18 2014, 11:46am

Post #17 of 45 (2216 views)
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YOU BOW to No ONE...SILVERGIRL..Sail on &ON! [In reply to] Can't Post

SUPER-DUPER Posting...

Often... Stops you in your
Tracks for some
TIME to
THINK..

"In Dungeons Deep."

bom

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


lionoferebor
Rohan

Dec 18 2014, 12:17pm

Post #18 of 45 (2252 views)
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I absolutely agree [In reply to] Can't Post

Fili did die with dignity. He also died a selfless death. There he is unarmed, in the hands of an unmerciful enemy, totally out of reach from anyone who could possibly help him, and what does Fili do? Does he cry out for Thorin or Dwalin to save him? No. Does he plead with Azog to spare him? No. With his last breath he tells those he cares about most to "run". Even as he's about to die, he's still thinking of others before himself.

Also, right before his death, when he and Kili are scouting Ravenhill, they both hear something in the upper corridor. Knowing there is something or someone down there Fili sends Kili to the lower hall out of harms way and explores the upper hall himself. I find it strange in all the reviews I read that no one ever mentioned this, because that moment there puts a whole different perspective on Fili's capture and death.


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Dec 18 2014, 2:00pm

Post #19 of 45 (2205 views)
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A whole different perspective indeed... [In reply to] Can't Post

Self-sacrifice for the sake of saving the lives of others... Oh my, Fili, how courageous of you once again...

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Dec 18 2014, 2:12pm

Post #20 of 45 (2161 views)
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"Choice comments"... LOL! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Dec 18 2014, 2:23pm

Post #21 of 45 (2184 views)
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How many significant details one can find [In reply to] Can't Post

in those films if one really looks carefully... Which shows how much thought and care has gone into the details of the script as well, which most often will go unnoticed by most viewers...
Thanks really for this whole list which through each of its points makes the film all the more meaningful.Cool

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


lionoferebor
Rohan

Dec 18 2014, 2:57pm

Post #22 of 45 (2167 views)
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Yes, Fili is very courageous [In reply to] Can't Post

sadly though many people will miss this point, because he doesn't die the stereotypical death of a hero, fighting with a sword in his hand. Courage isn't always gained through battle, more often it is gained through love, loyalty, and self-sacrifice. We've seen all of these traits in Fili throughout the trilogy, and all three were certainly there in his last moments.


Avandel
Half-elven


Dec 18 2014, 4:54pm

Post #23 of 45 (2102 views)
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Details are why I wish I had the DVD already! [In reply to] Can't Post

To luxuriate in, and study.


Quote
Which shows how much thought and care has gone into the details of the script as well, which most often will go unnoticed by most viewers...


Your comment hit home with me because I was strolling some new reviews yesterday, both positive and negative, and w. some of them my mouth was hanging open in disbelief at the PERSPECTIVES some of the writers have - so completely distant from mine. At times I don't even think the writers are seeing the film, at allFrown. Even if it's a positive review there seems to be so much intellectualizing at times, with some I kept thinking "WHAT are you trying to say, besides impressive three-syllable words?"Cool

*Sigh* Thankfully, whether I like what PJ does or not, he and WETA were hunkered down in NZ and could just work, and focus on the details we fans appreciate so much. Heart


Na Vedui
Rohan


Dec 18 2014, 6:37pm

Post #24 of 45 (2091 views)
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Ah, you thought that as well?... [In reply to] Can't Post

"Knowing there is something or someone down there Fili sends Kili to the lower hall out of harms way and explores the upper hall himself."
I too got the distinct impression that Fili heard or saw something which made him send Kili out of danger ... must look again when I go for a second viewing.


BlackFox
Half-elven


Dec 18 2014, 6:50pm

Post #25 of 45 (2077 views)
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*nods* [In reply to] Can't Post

This is how I remember it (I've seen the film three times now): they both hear something, Kili immediately wants to push forward, but Fili stops him and says: "No, you go search through lower halls."


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