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frodolives
Lorien
Dec 16 2014, 3:27pm
Post #1 of 22
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Has Jackson been asked any critical questions?
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Before I start, let me say I enjoy these movies very much (with some momentary exceptions), so please don't take this as a 'hating' post.
That said, I would really like to hear PJ answer some questions that are critical of the films. Why, for example, devote so much time to Alfrid - a character whose presence doesn't impact the story at all? Why the change in philosophy from LOTR, where the goal was to make everything look real, like they had unearthed an actual history? Why change the troll scene so much, to the point that Bilbo effectively saves the day along with Gandalf? Why have Smaug outsmarted by the dwarves and then attack Laketown instead of frying the dwarves?
Stuff like that would interest me. I'm not suggesting he would admit to making mistakes, but I would like to hear his answers.
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Macsen
Lorien
Dec 16 2014, 3:41pm
Post #2 of 22
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Why, for example, devote so much time to Alfrid - a character whose presence doesn't impact the story at all?
Comedy relief from the grimness of the battle that's going on around them.
Why the change in philosophy from LOTR, where the goal was to make everything look real, like they had unearthed an actual history?
I think the idea at the start was to go for a lighter tone, like the Hobbit book (which after all has talking purses and all manner of other childish things). However, possibly because of the negative reviews, there was a sift back to LOTR-style by DOS.
Why change the troll scene so much, to the point that Bilbo effectively saves the day along with Gandalf?
Bilbo is the central character, and gets a bit lost within all the exposition at the start of the film. I think this is a way of making him central again.
Why have Smaug outsmarted by the dwarves and then attack Laketown instead of frying the dwarves?
They needed a climax for the second film.
I don't think PJ made 'mistakes per se. There's a good reason for all of these decisions. All the problems basically come back to it being a three movie adaption of a short children's book with limited plot. But if he had adapted it faithfully people would also have complained that it wasn't like LOTR. Fans will never be happy, really.
(This post was edited by Macsen on Dec 16 2014, 3:42pm)
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Dame Ioreth
Tol Eressea
Dec 16 2014, 3:55pm
Post #3 of 22
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I don't know about the questions
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but I think Alfrid does impact the story, just not in a straightforward way. I don't like his character much and I thought his screen time was a waste of time in the second movie (I'm not into poop jokes so the whole chamber pot thing was lost on me). In the third movie however,I think he is there to show the dark side of human nature and how men can be swayed by gold too. I think he's a great counterpoint to Bard who does all these heroic things in such a matter-of-fact way that they seem almost non-heroic. He's calm, he's thoughtful, he is not rash in his judgements, he's able to take care of not only his own family but also his people - he's basically solid character-wise. It would be easy to take that for granted and miss the gravity of what he is actually doing. Alfrid shows the side that Bard could have chosen if he had been a lesser man.
Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
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Danielos
Rohan
Dec 16 2014, 4:19pm
Post #4 of 22
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Good question.
It feels strange when you watch the EE appendices and you get the sense that just as with LOTR they think are making a critically acclaimed masterpiece. No discussion on the mixed reception for these films and all the criticism for CGI overload, bloatedness, juvenilia, lack of realism.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Dec 16 2014, 4:25pm
Post #6 of 22
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Philippa Boyens made some interesting comments about Alfrid...
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...in the Empire interview that was linked here in a post a few days ago.
She said that one of his roles is to play into the theme of power and leadership. Bard is a natural leader - something Alfrid doesn't understand. At one point he rebukes Bard for having a chance of political power in the sense that he understands it - taking over from the Master - and throwing it away. But that isn't Bard's sort of power; he just wants to help his people.
And Alfrid's desire for gold is a foil to the 'dragon sickness' which the hoard exerts. He just wants gold for what he can buy - the hoard is all about possession. Thror, and Smaug, and Thorin, until he came back into his right mind, had far more gold than they could need or use, they just wanted it - all of it.
I think a lot of the answers you want are out there somewhere in the commentaries, the books, the interviews. It's just that there are so many of them that it's difficult to keep track.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 16 2014, 4:27pm
Post #7 of 22
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Is it the role of the filmmaker to give answers?
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I would have thought it was the job of the audience to interpret their own responses.
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adt100
Rohan
Dec 16 2014, 4:35pm
Post #8 of 22
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I sometimes would like PJ's explanations on such things, particular changes....
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We do of course get explanations in the EE, both in the features and the commentary, though I've found less so in the Hobbit EE's compared to the LOTR EE's. In the LOTR EE's we of course got 4 commentaries for various people involved in the films and also more 'book to screen' type features.
With regards a couple of your comments, personally I think Alfrid was a worthy addition and was one of the few welcome lighthearted moments in the film. Certainly made a change from the Dwarves being used as 'joke fodder'. He probably has a little more screen time than I would have liked, but his role certainly isn't pointless as he has a key role for Bard to play off in a number of scenes.
The troll scene in AUJ I have no issue with tbf, as in the book it is actually too unrealistic. A large rock, in reality, cannot in any way block out the sun. Sure it works in a children's book, but when filmed in a 'realistic' way of a live action film simply doesn't wash.
As for Smaug, he never bothered to fry the Dwarves there either, yet I believe he was aware of their presence?
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frodolives
Lorien
Dec 16 2014, 4:36pm
Post #9 of 22
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… it is the job of the journalist to ask them.
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Dame Ioreth
Tol Eressea
Dec 16 2014, 4:42pm
Post #10 of 22
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Wow, I feel smart now.  
But seriously, I need to start paying attention to those interviews. I think it's fascinating to hear how a writer makes their decisions. I may or may not agree with them, but hearing the thought process is always intriguing.
Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
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frodolives
Lorien
Dec 16 2014, 4:50pm
Post #11 of 22
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My issue with the troll scene...
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… is that, in the book, Bilbo FAILS. The entire debacle is his fault. It is crucial to his story arc to see him try to impress his companions and utterly flop at it. The failure makes his subsequent triumphs all the more meaningful. IMHO, the film fails to understand that. The focus in the book is still entirely on Bilbo and makes him a more sympathetic character. Also, being covered in troll snot is … just … no.
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Skaan
Lorien
Dec 16 2014, 4:51pm
Post #12 of 22
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Most of the appendices footage
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Is from when they were still filming and probably before most of the criticism had reached their ears.
If you want more up-to-date comments from them, listen to the commentary tracks.
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adt100
Rohan
Dec 16 2014, 5:08pm
Post #13 of 22
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I've just read the new article on the homepage - very interesting!
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May have answers, in part, to some of your questions, even if not specific scenes.
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Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea
Dec 16 2014, 5:09pm
Post #14 of 22
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I love hearing context and why why people make the decisions they do. I find it interesting.
Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13
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Brandybuckled
Lorien
Dec 16 2014, 5:30pm
Post #15 of 22
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Good point. My issue with the troll scene
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… is that, in the book, Bilbo FAILS. The entire debacle is his fault. It is crucial to his story arc to see him try to impress his companions and utterly flop at it. The failure makes his subsequent triumphs all the more meaningful. IMHO, the film fails to understand that. The focus in the book is still entirely on Bilbo and makes him a more sympathetic character. Also, being covered in troll snot is … just … no.
Is that trolls in a hurry to eat before daylight wouldn't cook dwarves over a fire so low that the food is cracking jokes and not even getting singed.
There certainly was a better way(s) to depict the scene that could have depicted both comedy along with menace and danger without adding idiocy.
NAArP: Not An Ardent purist since Arda was dented
(This post was edited by Brandybuckled on Dec 16 2014, 5:33pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Dec 16 2014, 6:41pm
Post #16 of 22
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The role of the artist is to articulate.
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Whether that results in communication or not is strictly another matter.
******************************************
"It was a bright cold day in April, and the mantle clock was striking thirteen."
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mirkwoodwanderer
Lorien
Dec 16 2014, 6:56pm
Post #17 of 22
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Huh.. he is there only a few times.. briefly.
and all these moments he stands for a large group of people in real life who are like that.
They could have taken a new caracter for all of these situations
they choose one and they choose well
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 16 2014, 10:05pm
Post #18 of 22
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Really? Some of those seem like odd things
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For even a journalist to ask. Why did character A get screentime X?
Authorial intent isn't all that interesting to me, in the main, and intend to think it is down to us to respond to what we see, rather than seeking guidance or boundaries.
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frodolives
Lorien
Dec 16 2014, 10:13pm
Post #19 of 22
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These questions interest me far more than "what was it like working with Orlando Bloom?'
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 16 2014, 10:24pm
Post #20 of 22
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Ha - well they don't interest me either!
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I just think you will find better answers to the sorts of questions you mention in thinking about your own reception.
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DanielLB
Immortal
Dec 17 2014, 7:28am
Post #22 of 22
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When are you going to answer those 20 questions?
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