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Simon L. de Paiva
Bree
Dec 12 2014, 5:30pm
Post #1 of 14
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Question about the ending.
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I've seen the film this week, but my question is not necessarily for those who have seen it, it's more for those who have read the RotK appendices. ( I've not read them in their entirety yet).In BotFA, the White Council discovers that Sauron has returned, and that he has armies of orcs at his command, so why is it that in the next 60 years until the events in FotR had they done nothing about it? I'm assuming, maybe, it's because they knew he didn't have the One ring, did they not know that the One ring was at large and that Sauron was looking for it? SPOILER AHEAD Also, in that scene in the end, when Gandalf says to Bilbo in the borders of the Shire, that he knew that Bilbo had found a ring of power in the goblin tunnels, did it never crossed Gandalf's mind in 60 years that that could be the One ring? That was more than enough time for Sauron to recover his strength, rebuild Barad-dur and start the war of the ring. It seems strange to me that the White Council could be this negligent. Maybe someone can explain this better to me?
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dubulous
Rohan
Dec 12 2014, 6:37pm
Post #2 of 14
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I guess you could say Gandalf was being a bit negligent. If he did have some doubts and concerns, he probably buried them when Saruman convinced the council that the Ring has been carried by the river Anduin all the way down to the sea and could never be found. He probably should have investigated a bit more, and I think he says it himself later that he wishes he had. The White Council itself did not remain operational for much longer as Saruman settled in Isengard and pretty much cut those ties .
But also, 60 years for these immortal beings who have lived for thousands of years is really not a very long time, though it may be for a hobbit.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 12 2014, 6:39pm
Post #3 of 14
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In the book they are also uncertain about how diminished Sauron is after the events at DG and Saruman suggests, as in the film, that the One Ring has been lost. Now, that said, there isn't an entirely near explanation, as there isn't for how long it takes the WC to act on numerous occasions in the text (it takes them the best part of a millennium to successfully deal with the evil in DG for example). Although it isn't really stated, we might assume a mixture of optimism, fear and not having a particularly great plan to put into action.
On the Ring and Gandalf suspecting it, the film actually paints a rather more plausible picture than the texts. There, in a very strange move, Tolkien tells us that not only did Gandalf know it was a magic ring but it was "plain from the first" that it was one of the Great Rings of Power, of which there were only 20 and he was wearing one of them! I think we simply have to gloss a little bit over likelihood and accept that our favourite wizard simply didn't seriously consider the possibility.
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Simon L. de Paiva
Bree
Dec 12 2014, 7:13pm
Post #4 of 14
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Thanks to you both for answering...
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I guess it's pretty accurate to say that Gandalf really was negligent on the matter. I was caught by surprise by the Dol Guldur storyline, I've always assumed that the last time Sauron posed a threat to the peoples of Middle earth had been on the Last alliance battle ( as shown in the FotR prologue) well, really strange. Also, on a somewhat different matter, something that stuck in my mind after watching the film was that last shot of Saruman saying: " Leave Sauron to me!" Was that the moment when Saruman's betrayal began? Was that the moment when he first allied himself with Sauron? that early on? I don't know if that was implied by the film, or if it was just me. Also, that scene in AUJ when Saruman refutes Gandalf's suspicions of Sauron returning also made me think that his betrayal had started that early, is there anything in the Appendices that says when" The treason of Isengard" actually started?
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 12 2014, 7:25pm
Post #5 of 14
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Saruman's fall in the books is more nuanced.
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And includes a stage where Saruman had gone to the bad but wanted the Ring to rule himself, as opposed to being fully or partially in league with Sauron.
In the texts he had turned to this first extent prior to the events of TH but only began to work with Sauron closer to the events of LOTR.
I actually liked very much how he has been handled in the films as it leaves things interestingly ambiguous - is it simply hopefulness, is it pride, a thought of power for himself, or a first inkling of something darker?
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Simon L. de Paiva
Bree
Dec 12 2014, 8:13pm
Post #6 of 14
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I've read LotR a few years ago but didn't go through all of the appendices, now I'm looking forward to it even more. I, too also enjoyed very much how Saruman was depicted in both trilogies. I believe Christopher Lee said a few years ago ( in the University of Dublin, if I'm not mistaken) that he considered Saruman to be the main antagonist of LotR instead of Sauron, it may sound like a strange thing to say, but I think I know what he meant. Not only does Saruman have a physical form and an overbearing presence ( in the films, thanks to Sir Christopher's immense talent and sheer awesomeness), not only that but the fact that he was good once and was corrupted by evil, not necessarily Sauron's evil but his own darker side, it gives a human element to the character, as opposed to Sauron who is just pure evil.
Here are the links to that interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zg_Vd-kLdDU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQVi_DC9HvI
The man is beyond awesome.
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glor
Rohan
Dec 13 2014, 2:28am
Post #7 of 14
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On the Ring and Gandalf suspecting it, the film actually paints a rather more plausible picture than the texts. There, in a very strange move, Tolkien tells us that not only did Gandalf know it was a magic ring but it was "plain from the first" that it was one of the Great Rings of Power, of which there were only 20 and he was wearing one of them! I think we simply have to gloss a little bit over likelihood and accept that our favourite wizard simply didn't seriously consider the possibility.
Film or book verse, knowledge or suspicion, the one thing Gandalf cannot and never does it hold the ring in his own hands, for fear that his power combined with the evil of the ring will create a devastating force. The ring is safe with Bilbo because Bilbo doesn't know what it is, understand it's true significance or power, to Bilbo the One Ring is simply a magic ring that turns him invisible all be it with a dark side that unnerves Bilbo.
If Gandalf knows or even suspects that Bilbo has The Ring, he needs to know who he can trust if, anyone at all with the information as to it's whereabouts. Tolkien makes it clear that The Ring corrupts, the more innocent the bearer the longer it takes to influence, and there is none more innocent in Middle-earth than a Hobbit. Gandalf's allies, are all too worldly, too powerful at this point to be trusted with the knowledge that the ring (may) have been found, this is proven to be true because later, in LOTR, Saruman alines himself with Sauron.
The One Ring can never be in safe hands, but in Bilbo's it is the closest to safe as it can be and to keep it protected, it too keep silent on the matter until such time as Gandalf is sure who can be trusted and then do what needs to be done when the time is right.
It makes perfect sense to me because of the absolute power of the ring itself, a ring that Galadriel, Elrond et refused to even touch for fear of corruption. Of course, he could have got Bilbo at the end of the Hobbit to go to Mount Doom, to try and destroy it but, after his adventure our Hobbit was probably too exhausted (LOL) and what is more perhaps after his journey to the Misty Mountain not innocent enough to be trusted to make it too Mount Doom, that is why it had to be Frodo, a Hobbit untainted by the world outside the Shire.
No mascara can survive BOTFA
(This post was edited by glor on Dec 13 2014, 2:29am)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 13 2014, 9:09am
Post #8 of 14
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Gandalf had matched the identity of Bilbo's to the One all along but was using Bilbo as an unknowing safe place to keep it?
I think the text outright contradicts this and the film's seem to strongly portray Gandalf discovering the nature of the Ring rather than already being aware of it.
I'm also not quite sure that seems like the sort of thing Gandalf would consider fair on Bilbo!
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Dec 13 2014, 11:30am
Post #9 of 14
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There was recently another thread
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about this, those sixty years in-between when nothing was done against Sauron, and if Gandalf had been naive and was believing everything to be all right during all this time...
I think it was Darkstone who in that thread posted a most excellent (to my eyes) series of quotes straight from what Gandalf himself explains at length about that, later on at the Council of Elrond.
Because Gandalf's speech is so long, I must admit I had never really read it so carefully before, but Darkstone was quite right: all the answers needed were right there, expressed by Gandalf himself. Quite convincing, I would say.
Perhaps you could go and read those few pages in LOTR Part 1, 'The Fellowship of the Ring' ?
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Dec 13 2014, 11:42am
Post #10 of 14
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Here is Darkstone's old post with quotes from FOTR:
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http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=804582;search_string=Gandalf;#804582
It was on December 5th, in the thread "Gandalf being naive?", almost at the end.
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
(This post was edited by mae govannen on Dec 13 2014, 11:43am)
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glor
Rohan
Dec 13 2014, 6:36pm
Post #11 of 14
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Doesn't that depend on whether...
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on how one reads or interprets Tolkien's Gandalf, I for one, always loved the way Tolkien gave a certain ambiguity to Gandalf's actions, his power if you will, comes not just from his Maia magic but his patience and ability to manipulate. Tolkien wrote with an Anglo-Saxon pre-Enlightenment perspective, a way of thinking about knowledge not in today's terms, as something to be shared for the common good but as something darker more sinister, where the power of knowledge is something dangerous. Wisdom again isn't just about taking knowledge and acting upon it in the (morally) correct way, it is about knowing when to reveal, when to stay silent and when to be patient and test the reactions of others to one's information.
I have always read Gandalfs proclamations as to the whereabouts of the Ring during the Council of Elrond as the actions of someone playing their cards close to their chest, he wants to understand and observe how those in attendance wish to act, what their intent is, most importantly who would take the ring for themselves, this is how Gandalf is written as a character of observation and patience, a powerful being who disguises himself as a 'tramp' in order to watch and learn from others.. Gandalf knows how corrupting the ring is, he doesn't even trust himself with it, so much so that despite the fact he thinks he knows it is in Bilbo's possession, he cannot even reveal to himself by speaking aloud his suspicions or knowing.
there is another clue: when at the Council of Elrond Gandalf says:
Yet at last, as his shadow grew, Saruman yielded, and the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood and that was in the very year of the finding of this Ring: a strange chance, if chance it was
If chance it was, is the key here. The One Ring is described as having a will to find it's master, I have always felt that Gandalf was observing not just how others would react to the possibility of it being found but how the ring itself would behave, in Bilbo's hands. I have always viewed the ring passing through the hands of Gandalf's Hobbit associates, as Gandalf thinking that perhaps the ring was willing itself to him and not wanting to be part of that.The thing about the One Ring is that it's power is only relative to it's bearer, the more innocent the bearer the less power it has, the Ring was as safe n Bilbo's hands as it could be.
I would also add: 60 odds years is not a long time in Middle-Earth, a place inhabited by races and people's many of whoms lifespans extend way beyond our human years, if they are not immortal
No mascara can survive BOTFA
(This post was edited by glor on Dec 13 2014, 6:39pm)
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Simon L. de Paiva
Bree
Dec 13 2014, 6:40pm
Post #12 of 14
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I just finished reading The Council of Elrond in its entirety.
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I ended up finding answers to other questions that I had about the remaining members of Thorin's company, like Gloin and Balin, and what the latter was doing in Moria prior to his death, And also an excellent account on Saruman's treason. But there is not a doubt in my mind that Gandalf only discovered that Bilbo's ring was the One Ring in FotR, when he went to Gondor to investigate, and found the answer in an old scroll ( The hidden markings brought up by fire ) That is made clear both in the book and in the movies ( in that scene in Fellowship when we have our first glimpse of Minas Tirith) I still think it's quite strange that it took him 60 years to have this suspicion, still, nobody's perfect, not even the great wizard.
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Dec 14 2014, 4:41am
Post #13 of 14
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Very interesting observations and comments!
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I think you are quite right to add that dimension to Gandalf's behavior, which I had not seen so clearly yet myself.
Thank you! 
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Dec 14 2014, 4:47am
Post #14 of 14
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Yes, you're right... No one is perfect!!!
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Except Eru, the One Being whose Consciousness guides each of us from within so that the needed overall result does happen, through all the difficulties that will also help each of us grow and develop into our own loving wisdom..
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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