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acheron
Gondor
Dec 10 2014, 8:09pm
Post #76 of 187
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The only indication I can recall in the book where it seems as though the staff is "necessary" or at least "helpful" to a wizard in a "magic" sense is in Edoras, where Grima tells the guards to confiscate Gandalf's staff and is dismayed when it doesn't happen.
On one hand, we're probably not meant to think the Rohirrim are especially reliable in these kind of matters (and perhaps especially not Grima) -- what is it Aragorn says about them? Something like "wise but unlearned"?
On the other hand, if Gandalf didn't need the staff for anything, why not just let the guards take it? Ok, so he does use it as a walking stick, but I'm pretty sure the implication that Gandalf tricked the guard to keep his staff so that he could "use" it to heal Theoden wasn't made up for the movie. (Don't have a book with me right now to check; I'll look it up later if no one else has.)
For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 10 2014, 8:10pm
Post #77 of 187
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Gildor tells Frodo that "he said farewell to Bilbo on this very spot" (from memory)
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Am I giving everything away? Do we have a spoilers policy which I am violating? How many push ups?
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Dec 10 2014, 8:11pm
Post #78 of 187
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Don't be shy! Step into the light! (We won't roast you, we promise! )'
We love seeing new faces here! So glad you could join us!
What do you think of the call-backs to the events of The Hobbit?
I read LOTR before reading The Hobbit, so when call-backs occurred, they were as vague to me as a history that I hadn’t yet learnt. But I wonder how more mysterious the ring might seem if I hadn’t read about his finding it, in the Prologue “Concerning Hobbits.” Or perhaps it would seem less important, because I didn’t know its background. Apparently the prologue was added to later editions? (Which means earlier readers of FOTR would be plunged right into the Party chapter, with only TH, or nothing, to inform them?)
An interesting viewpoint. Thanks for sharing! Well, given the vague-ness you describe, how did it strike you? Did you know that there was a book called The Hobbit when you read LotR?
I didn't until I had finished reading RotK, and I think I despaired of ever hearing about Bilbo's adventures. Actually, I remember thinking:
'Who is this guy Bilbo? He has a funny name... Why is he so important? Are they going to tell us in this book? He seems like an old crotchety geezer? Is he the hero!? I hope not!!' 
Why such an interest in the scenery before the action begins? What are your thought on the Shire itself?
It helps create a familiarity, appeal and fondness, ensuring hobbits are relatable to us. Tolkien’s depiction of an idealised ‘Englishy’ rural lifestyle may have been quite compelling to many of his contemporary readers, even though industrialisation was already destroying an England that once was.
I agree. Home is a comfortable place to start, and for readers of TH, a familiar one. It also creates a sense of tension once danger intrudes and the characters are thrust out of the safe place they have always known! But that's another chapter....
I also think Tolkien just loved family trees and setting up these relationships. Not sure where he was at with the Silmarillion at the time he wrote this, but it’s also packed with family ties. Here, they are made a little more ‘human’, and set up the concepts of family and neighbourhood ‘tribalism’ that are closer to our own lives.
He certainly did love detail!I recall a letter wheer he said he could write about hobbits and their amusing doings for a long, long time. He also said that it took some doing to get out of the Shire becuase he loved it so much, but he finally did it, realising that the minutiae of the petty doings of Hobbits would be of little interest to any but himself.
At the time, The Sil was largely sketched out, but far from complete. I think that he had a general idea of hat he wanted it to be, though, because he had already offered to finish it for his publisher. However, it was rejected because the public wanted more about Hobbits. Still, considering the disarry that the drafts of the Sil are in, and the long time it took to write LotR, I don't know if he could have finished the Sil and made it ready for publication before LotR was published-- and it was published expecting a loss! Only through the agency of Raynor Unwin was it put to press, but how might the Sil have been received if the head publisher thought LotR a bit dense!
What about his (Frodo’s) childhood in Brandy Hall? Why do you think he was willing to leave his friends? Is this special upbringing necessary to prepare him for his later role as a hero?
I wonder if, as an orphan in Brandy Hall, Frodo had to quickly become independent, drawn into a big group of hobbit children, but receiving no special parenting. In spite of probably enjoying living there to some degree, Bilbo’s adoption may have given him the attention and guidance that was however missing. If he were too pampered earlier on, he may never have felt a sense of ‘apartness’ which would later make a bachelor and adventurer of him. Kinda like the nerdy child who is ignored at school, and learns he doesn’t need to run with the pack.
Interesting speculation. We also speculated earlier why Frodo never mentions his late parents at any time. It is soemthing interesting to ponder, but no answers await us, I'm afraid....
Why do you think Gandalf made them? Why practise the art? Is it a hobby to relax?
Gandalf is ‘a servant of the secret fire, wielder of the flame of Anor’, and can dial up a spark on his staff when needed. Fire is pretty much a specialty, it seems, and I imagine creating fireworks is the ‘hobby’ side of his study.
I think as much is said in the books, but in many places in TH fire is used to great advantage. Considering the common Wizard motif as well, fire control seems fairly standard.
Maybe, also, there is an intended contrast in the methods of the use of fire for good and evil? Gandalf uses it constructively (light, heat, and preserving life) while evil uses it destructively?
What is your favourite part of the party?
My favourite part of the party is not so much a certain moment of it, but the touch of humour, gently poking fun at the Shire folk, their love of food and intolerance of anything too different. Eg. “gardeners came by arrangement, and removed in wheel-barrows those that had inadvertently remained behind.”… “and the uneaten food (a very small item).”
Tolkien excels at this subtle humour. It never fails to make me laugh! Another of my favourites is this:
'"his cat" {Sauron}he calls her {Shelob}, but she owns him not'
Great thoughts!
My sympathies for you and your family.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Darkstone
Immortal
Dec 10 2014, 8:14pm
Post #79 of 187
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Many of his silver spoons mysteriously disappeared and were never accounted for. Personally he suspected the Sackville-Bagginses. On their side they never admitted that the returned Baggins was genuine...
-The Last Stage
First they claim he's an imposter, then they insinuate he's dead.
"Where's there's a will, there's a lawsuit."
******************************************
"Once upon a time and a very good time it was there was a wizard coming down along the road and this wizard that was coming down along the road met a nicens little hobbit named Bilbo Baggins."
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Dec 10 2014, 8:18pm
Post #80 of 187
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Mad Baggins had finally gone cracked and died in a ditch somewhere?
Frodo had killed him?
Some other such rumours? Hobbits seem very apt to declare someone legally dead and collect their stuff. Was it intended to be a slightly morbid but humourous idiosyncrasy?
I do not know if there was a point when Bilbo was 'dead', but in some drafts, as I recall, he left to be married outside the Shire (Or Hobbiton at least), or to another part of the Shire, so perhaps they thought he died on this 'honeymoon' of sorts?
I tend to agree more with this idea of a 'living will'. Perhaps is is similar to a company founder passing control of the company to another before his death so that he can ensure that his picked successor is chosen?
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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acheron
Gondor
Dec 10 2014, 8:18pm
Post #81 of 187
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Chekhov was primarily a playwright, and I had usually heard his "gun" quote described in context of plays (or movies and television shows). Seeing it quoted with the word "chapter" is interesting.
since we're on TVTropes, here's another relevant one, the Law of Conservation of Detail: http://tvtropes.org/...ConservationOfDetail
In any case, I think the medium makes a difference here. In a short story, every word needs to contribute to the fullest extent possible. Plays and their descendents I think are similar. But in a novel, this is less needed; there is more room for detail. (And of course Tolkien insisted (at times) that LOTR wasn't even a novel per se, but a "heroic romance", which I suppose has even fewer "requirements".)
For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Dec 10 2014, 8:19pm
Post #82 of 187
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Now you have Willie Nelson singing in MY ear!!!!
Bebother and confusticate you!!! 
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Dec 10 2014, 8:23pm
Post #83 of 187
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We had a discussion about wizard staffs...
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From what I recall, there is nowhere in Tolkien's books that it is stated 'why' they needed them or what they did. (We don't even get a note on the Ring's abilities and power limits)
I think one person proposed that it was a 'conduit' or 'amplifier' for innate powers, or a greater power from the divine, as well as a symbol of office. So Saruman's staff breaking could be seen as divine rejection and curtailment of his powers.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Dec 10 2014, 8:25pm
Post #84 of 187
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Didn't Hobbits just love family trees and legal niceties?
I think these were enumerated among their many quirks.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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cats16
Half-elven
Dec 10 2014, 8:28pm
Post #85 of 187
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We have that meeting, and also, "'But I saw him once again, very far from here.' He would say no more about Bilbo, and Frodo fell silent."
Hmm, I wonder where else he could have seen Bilbo? If Bilbo is moving in a generally-East direction, and Gildor's group generally-West, that isn't very conducive to crossing paths again. I suppose the Elves didn't have to be going directly West. Huh, I guess they aren't called the Wandering Companies for nothing. 
I'm good for a few push ups, if we owe some.
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 10 2014, 8:29pm
Post #86 of 187
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I think that's a good point- the gun goes off more quickly in the more concise forms.//
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~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 10 2014, 8:44pm
Post #87 of 187
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The Reverend, a now sadly departed former contributor to this site, had the idea that the staff carried all those energies that a wizard could not fit into the human form that he had taken (Or that she had taken, if that arose).
I think that's completely brilliant. If it's not true, it ought to be!
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 10 2014, 8:49pm
Post #88 of 187
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"What parallels and/or contrasts to The Hobbit do you find in the first chapter?
For one thing, we get to see hobbits and the Shire.
In The Hobbit, we assume that Bilbo is both a prototype (when he is fussy and contemptible) and an exception (when the Tookish part takes over); but here we actually get to see a few examples of the spieces, and can make up our minds for ourselves. Also, we get to know the land - something we did not in The Hobbit.
Identifying with both the simple, rural folk of Middle-earth and with the land itself, is critical for our with the book. We do not want Sauron to be defeated merely because the author wants us to root for Gandalf - but because we care. And we couldn't care that much for just an individual hero of a strange, alien race. "
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 10 2014, 9:12pm
Post #89 of 187
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This chapter and book reading order
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Your comment:
"What parallels and/or contrasts to The Hobbit do you find in the first chapter?
For one thing, we get to see hobbits and the Shire.
In The Hobbit, we assume that Bilbo is both a prototype (when he is fussy and contemptible) and an exception (when the Tookish part takes over); but here we actually get to see a few examples of the spieces, and can make up our minds for ourselves. Also, we get to know the land - something we did not in The Hobbit.
Identifying with both the simple, rural folk of Middle-earth and with the land itself, is critical for our with the book. We do not want Sauron to be defeated merely because the author wants us to root for Gandalf - but because we care. And we couldn't care that much for just an individual hero of a strange, alien race. "
made me think how pivotal this chapter is. We need to start in the Shire, immerse ourselves in it, have a party in it, and feel a part of it not just to appreciate the arc of LOTR, but The Silmarillion as well. As much as I like the Sil, I don't think I'd like it that much if my memory were wiped and I read it first. Yes, I would have all the erudite knowledge of understanding references to Feanor et al, but I think it's the tantalizing details dangled in LOTR that make me appreciate the stories in the Sil. From a macro view, the Sil determined the scenario of LOTR, and the outside world determined what happened in the Shire, but we go in reverse direction by starting small and hobbit-like and appreciating the larger Tolkien universe as we go along. That half-glimpsed vista that makes us always want to know more while also intriguing us about the spot we're standing on.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Dec 10 2014, 10:13pm
Post #90 of 187
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Thanks to sador for that original comment...
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My only contribution was the question.
I totally agree with your comment. How does Brethil say it I am in, 'Vehement Agreement' or was it 'Violent Agreement'? Well...she says it much better anyway....
I love this part:
...{W}e go in reverse direction by starting small and hobbit-like and appreciating the larger Tolkien universe as we go along.
Exactly as it should be!!!
That last sentence, in particular, strikes me deeply:
That half-glimpsed vista that makes us always want to know more while also intriguing us about the spot we're standing on.
This is wonderfully poetic and perfectly encapsulates the feelings and emotions that I experienced upon my first reading, and the thrill of immersion that led me further in. Always another 'half-glimpsed vista' to explore; ready to pick out new details.
Middle-Earth is a world meant to be 'experienced'.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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cats16
Half-elven
Dec 10 2014, 10:46pm
Post #91 of 187
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I remember countless times while in NZ when that feeling came over me. Suddenly a forest gave way to a tranquil valley filled with little rivers and hillocks, soon giving way to more forest-covered mountaintops.
And then beyond...who knows what the horizon may bring?
The simultaneity of wonder one feels while stepping upon new ground fluctuates mysteriously with a yearning to know what lies beyond the mountaintops.
Ah, this is all bringing me back.  I think for me, this read through has a lot more definition to the landscape of Middle-earth. Even the little moments are much more vivid.
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
(This post was edited by cats16 on Dec 10 2014, 10:48pm)
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a.s.
Valinor
Dec 10 2014, 11:40pm
Post #92 of 187
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well...not ENTIRELY "made up" for the movie
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I'm pretty sure the implication that Gandalf tricked the guard to keep his staff so that he could "use" it to heal Theoden wasn't made up for the movie. (Don't have a book with me right now to check; I'll look it up later if no one else has.)
I don't know, because I don't think it's ever clear what the Wizards have their staffs for, or that they are actually needed for "performing magic". I don't think magic works that way, for Tolkien. I think this thing we call "magic" is rather an innate part of certain orders of being. So that the Wizards are using their staffs somehow, and they certainly represent the power of the Wizards and are recognized as belonging to Wizards--but I don't think Gandalf needs his staff to make anything happen. Gandalf could make "stuff" happen even without the staff, as long as he had his Ring, I suppose, which somehow enhances his natural abilities as the One Ring enhances small failings into great evil, etc.
In the book, Gandalf points his staff at the high windows in Théoden's Hall, and first the sun is blotted out, and then the sun shines brightly. And Gandalf tells him not to lose hope, and bids him to "come out". And he goes out of the hall and is renewed.
Like that. So Jackson based his rendering on the book, but it is not faithful to the book, IMHO.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.
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Ithilisa
Rivendell
Dec 11 2014, 5:38am
Post #93 of 187
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In The Hobbit, we assume that Bilbo is both a prototype (when he is fussy and contemptible) and an exception (when the Tookish part takes over); I understand what you mean by "exception", but what do you mean by "prototype" in this case? The definition I know isn't making sense in this case (blaming my ignorance, not the wording). Just trying to keep up with the rest of you.
"I name you Elf-friend; and may the stars shine upon the end of your road!" - Gildor
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sador
Half-elven
Dec 11 2014, 9:38am
Post #94 of 187
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it behooves me to answer.
What I've meant is that in The Hobbit we get the sense that Tooks are not your run-of-the-mill hobbits, but something special - as in the absurd rumour of having a fairy ancestress.
But the Baggins family - now they are the quintissential hobbits! You could know what a Baggins would answer before you asked the question. They nothing do anything unexpected or unconventional. They exemplify hobbits as they preceive themselves - which we would normally have rather a low opinion of, and wouldn't really care if the whole people would be enslaved by Sauron.
Now I think that Bungo Baggins was not as contemptible as it seems. Tolkien (whether subtly or simply unintentionally) does endow him with a few redeeming features - as I've written here and (after I had fully considered Bungo's 'legacy') here.
(This post was edited by sador on Dec 11 2014, 9:38am)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 11 2014, 12:16pm
Post #95 of 187
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How do you picture Gandalf in Bag End?
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As a book-firster, it wasn't until I saw the movies that I realized Gandalf should be bumping his head against the ceiling of Bag End, yet that's never mentioned in the books, and he seems quite comfortable at all times. Do you suppose he really was?
I don't think that one can say that hobbits had high celings, because when we get to Bree, the Bree-men are worried about Men from the south coming to Breeland and expecting hospitality. The Bree-hobbits, however, are unconcerned, because it seemed absurd to think that Men would try to ask for shelter in a hobbit-home.
It's a minor issue, and maybe Gandalf had been in the Shire often enough that he was used to stooping, but my mental image of him in Bag Eng chatting with either Bilbo or Frodo is always a cheery, comfortable image, like he belongs there, not that he's awkardly trying to fit himself in.
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squire
Half-elven
Dec 11 2014, 1:02pm
Post #96 of 187
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Remember, Gandalf is very short
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Or at least we can so infer from Tolkien's presentation of him in The Hobbit:
Bilbo saw ... an old man with a staff. He had a tall pointed blue hat, a long grey cloak, a silver scarf over which a white beard hung down below his waist, and immense black boots. (The Hobbit, I)
"Old man", "Tall hat", "Immense boots" - all descriptions that go better with a short old fellow who dresses to give a comic impression of greater size, than with a towering six-footer.
Tolkien was not a very good artist of the human figure, so this drawing is mostly suggestive of how large Gandalf is, rather than definitive. But seeing the dwarves in the foreground, and Bilbo in the bushes as far back in the picture as the wizard, not to mention the generally squat proportions of the wizard himself, it's hard to imagine Gandalf bumping his head on the ceiling of Bag End:
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
 = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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a.s.
Valinor
Dec 11 2014, 1:10pm
Post #97 of 187
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Well, I realize this doesn't directly answer the question about Gandalf bumping his head on the ceiling at Bag End, but in Unfinished Tales in his essay on the Istari, Tolkien describes him as:
"...seemed the least, less tall than the others, and in looks more aged, grey-haired and grey-clad, and leaning on a staff."
What I always forget about Gandalf, and surprises me almost every time I read it, and that's a lot--is his blue hat.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.
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sador
Half-elven
Dec 11 2014, 2:21pm
Post #98 of 187
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Fishing for leftovers (a very small item)
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Why choose the Shire as a starting point? Is this a relic of a time when the story was solely of a Hobbit’s adventure?
It has to do with what I've written before: it establishes Middle-earth, and gets us involved in it.
As Merry will put it later (The Houses of Healing) - you need to grow roots somewhere, and the Shire's soil is deep.
Why a party to introduce the book?
It establishes hobbits very well. Food, gossip, low-brow entertainment.
If you read The Hobbit first, did this chapter influence the way that you see Hobbits?
Very likely; but I don't quite remember. For one thing, Bilbo wasn't quite prosy, and he had nobody in particular to gossip with (see Many Meetings).
Do you see development of their portrayal from The Hobbit?
For sure. The only thing I knew of hobbits' society from the previous book was that they had butchers, solicitors and museums (the policemen squire remembers so fondly were edited out of the second edition - so I never knew they were there until joining TORn). And also inns and morning letters - but we don't even know whether these were run by hobbits.
What do you think of the call-backs to the events of The Hobbit? Distracting and unnecessary for the tale that stands alone, or contributive to a larger backdrop?
In this chapter? They serve very well to guide us into the tale, and to hint (through the neighbours' reactions) that Bilbo is in fact somewhat of an alien in his hometown. Which puts us firmly on his side, of course.
Why such an interest in the scenery before the action begins? What are your thought on the Shire itself?
19th century novelistic conventions, especially in books by French authors (English writers usually first published their books as serials, which made them second-class writing in the view of continental critics, and made them skip the ling intros). Ever read Emil Zola? If you find this part tedious, don't even think of trying.
What do you think of his circumstances? His parents are never mentioned again, nor any other mentor figure, so did Bilbo take the place of a father?
Well, yes. Or a fairy godmother, if you prefer.
What about his childhood in Brandy Hall? Why do you think he was willing to leave his friends?
Well, becoming the heir of a fablously rich bachelor, with a nice hobbit-hole to boot, as opposed to living as an orphan, one among dozens of Gorbadoc's family?
If his choice so strange?
Is this special upbringing necessary to prepare him for his later role as a hero?
Of course. Apart of the usual sympathy and mystique attached to an orphan (or deserted child, like Luke Skywalker), there is also the psychologic dimension squire mentioned. Added to that, a wealthy, elderly, notorious bachelor uncle is a perfect jumping-point for an adventure - you are likely to be left several skeletons in the family cupboard, and also with ample means to set out on the ensuing adventure!
What do you think of this first plot point? Is Bilbo merely planning a short trip at this point, or not?
Well, it is a holiday, in being only a leisurely, limited adventure - a trip to visit friends and a bit of sight-seeing. After that, he goes into quiet retirement.
When do you think he decided to leave for good?
He's had enough. Even without the Ring - there is a limit to how long one can bear a hobbity life. Kerewyn mentioned Ian Holm's performance as Bilbo - I loved it, and I think he nailed most of it. I refer you to his exasperation of the neighbours.
Is this a relic of the idea that Bilbo was intended to be the hero and go on an adventure?
Well, the problem with that idea was that it blatantly contradicted the end of The Hobbit, in which Bilbo was said to have no more adventures and live happily until the end of his days. So the adventure was put off for a long time (meaning internal time), until Bilbo was sufficiently venerable.
The inevitable price to pay for that is that once the tale turns sinister, and action becomes urgent - Gandalf seems to be an absolute dunderhead for letting the Ring lie in the Shire for so long.
How much do you expect the whole event cost? How does it tally with the Gaffer’s account of Bilbo’s wealth? (Some big bags and a few chests) Does it seem too little? If so, does it mean that his treasure was highly valuable, that the Shire had a very small living expense, or that perhaps much of the Party was financed by the favours of friends? Perhaps Bilbo, already wealthy, lived on his inheritance and only used his fortune for extravagances?
As a rule, the Shire's economy is highly idealized, and we never get to understand just how it works.
squire's analysis is as brilliant as usual - but I have to say that Tolkien's idea brought in The Peoples of Middle-earth about having the major clans local lords works well with the Tooks and Brandybucks, but not with the Bagginses - they are thoroughly burgeois (and judging by their family tree, the Boffins are even more recent_social_climbers).
Why do you think Gandalf made them? Why practise the art? Is it a hobby to relax? How would it help fight evil?
Recreation. Why do I bother answering these questions? Because it is delightful fun, at once stimulating and soothing.
Is this a relic from the time he was simply a wandering wizard in The Hobbit before he became Olorin the Maiar?
Is this what wandering wizards do? Do they go aroung tricking-and-treating people for their sustenance?
Ah, that adds another layer to Gandalf's resentment at being treated as if he was selling buttons at the door!
What is your favourite part of the party?
The refreshments, of course. Of any party, they are.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 11 2014, 2:50pm
Post #99 of 187
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A couple of "Pierre Menard" observations... about pace (book vs. Movie) and transition (Bilbo--> Frodo)
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Who is Pierre Menard, you ask? In short, it's the alias of a guy who back in 2011 decided to read LOTR in an unusual way - every day he copy-typed a single page, and then wrote about it. If there were songs on that page he arranged, performed and recorded them. And so on for two-and-a-half-years solid.
He (he is NOT me BTW, if you were wondering) writes more about this project here http://iampierremenard.wordpress.com/who-is-pierre-menard/ , should that be intriguing.
I find a lot of interesting and amusing things in his writing, so wanted to share his work as a resource for our read-through now.
Here are some "Pierre Menard" observations from page 36 (From the line "He paused, silent..." to “…and the uneaten food (a very small item).”*:
Frodo comes back to Bag End (we previously saw him sneaking off from the party) and finds Gandalf sitting, deep in thought. Gandalf directs Frodo to the envelope that Bilbo put together, with the ring and Bilbo’s will. Frodo takes it, and Gandalf recommends that he does not try to use the ring. And, of course, Gandalf tells Frodo to “keep it secret, and keep it safe!” I imagine in the book this is less dramatic than what we see in the movie. Gandalf goes to bed, and Frodo is left with the responsibility of sending everyone home from the party... Talk about movies accelerating the dramatic pace of a novel! Here, we get Gandalf’s warning to keep the ring secret and safe, and in the movie, he immediately bolts out of Bag End. In the book, that same warning that (in the movie) is filled with such haste and worry is followed by “Now I am going to bed.” What? Beddy time for Gandalf? Who are you, Link?... The exciting thing is, you can feel that the book is transitioning. The party is over, and now it’s time to get to Frodo. This part really does feel like an homage to The Hobbit, and we get to see Bilbo’s final parting from the Shire, going back to doing what he loves, adventuring. We like that image, but it’s not what this book is going to be about. Bon voyage, Bilbo. Forward Frodo! http://iampierremenard.wordpress.com/...silent-for-a-moment/
[ *M Menard has the 50th Anniversary Edition - this is nice for me,: I got a 60th Anniversary Edn in September (my birthday is 3 days before Bilbo and Frodo's and I'm 10 years younger than FOTR). Thanks to that nice birthday gift, my page numbers match his. Your Pagination May Vary of course, if you have a different edition. ]
I think those are 2 nice observations - while Movie Gandalf tears off to the Gondor Archives, the probably rushes back in time for the next chapter, events unfold at a much more leisurely pace for book-Gandalf. In a couple of weeks of our time we'll doubtless be discussing how long it takes Frodo to hit the road, even after he understands something of his peril: that difference in speed starts up in our current chapter.
I suppose it is about this point in the chapter that a first-time reader starts to get "Frodo-shock" if you're going to get it. But, trying to imagine that I have no idea how the story is to unfold, I suppose at this exact point of p36, I don't know whether to expect the story to follow Bilbo, or this new Frodo character...
PS - What do you think of his suggestion about the meaning of "backarappers"? (
http://iampierremenard.wordpress.com/...n-again-by-the-gate/ ) 
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Darkstone
Immortal
Dec 11 2014, 3:35pm
Post #100 of 187
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...according to Tolkien's drawings Bag End did have high ceilings:
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"Once upon a time and a very good time it was there was a wizard coming down along the road and this wizard that was coming down along the road met a nicens little hobbit named Bilbo Baggins."
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Aughh!!!!
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