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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
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Escapist
Gondor


Dec 28 2014, 7:58pm

Post #276 of 296 (920 views)
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     My gaming group wasn't so keen on ME and JRRT and such. [In reply to]  

Although they were rather fond of Orcs and Ogres! I would have really enjoyed a group that loved both RPGing and JRRT at once! I am jealous!
As for me, in my beginnings as a roleplayer, I gravitated toward the most fae character that the rules and the GM (like the DM) allowed - player characters that were faeries and youthful dragons and the like. I loved and took advantage of the way GURPS facilitates just making up stuff, too.
My GM quickly learned that he must "reign in" that creativity and they started making templates and pre-made characters to be chosen from Wink. I think I have calmed down now somewhat, although a little twist of that wild faerie madness may still creep into some corner of the characters I make or choose ...
But really, since it was GURPS, we did everything from 007 WWII spies to Firefly and yes - stock fantasy now and then as well.


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Dec 28 2014, 9:23pm

Post #277 of 296 (910 views)
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     I fear you have misunderstood [In reply to]  

my point, or perhaps misconstrued it willfully.
I am not saying Pj deliberately set out to make a film like a video game. Or even that he has been personally influenced by them.
I am saying that the narrative structure of BOFA closely resembles that of a video game. Whether its deliberate or no.

And I am talking about narrative structure here- not the look, not the cgi, not he presentation of the action- the narrative.

Something which makes full use of its medium, as film, to tell its narrative, say for example 2001 A Space Odyssey is not easily transferable to gaming without large narrative changes to make it suitable for a game structure.
Conversely something like Silent Hill 2 whose narrative is dependent on the gaming elements for its structure cannot easily be transferred the other way (which is why despite the SH film looking and sounding perfect its woeful in comparison in its narrative).
BOFA however could easily be transferred without the need to alter its narrative structuring at all because it already has one incredibly similar to a video game. A game could be made out of it in other words without having to change much, if anything about its structuring- even the structuring within certain scenes such as Dol Guldur, which as I pointed out in my review is already just like a game- fight the 9 over and over until an arbitrary point is reached when Sauron/end of level boss is triggered to appear- the 9 respawn, fight some more until the special move that initiates the final Galadriel meltdown cutscene. Its a games structure.

And that in my view is a bad thing because game structuring is not best suited to film narrative and vice versa.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Dec 28 2014, 9:26pm

Post #278 of 296 (904 views)
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     Oh please do [In reply to]  

I enjoy a good debate and you can air your views and we can discuss them.
Besides its always slightly irritating when someone says "I could refute every point you make, I'm just not going to right now, but I could!"
As my foul mouthed old grandad used to say "**** or get off the pot!" Wink

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat

(This post was edited by Ataahua on Dec 28 2014, 10:07pm)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Dec 28 2014, 9:37pm

Post #279 of 296 (921 views)
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     Having clarified - I'm afraid the analogy doesn't stack up [In reply to]  

Let alone causation.

You describe the structure as being like a game (indeed influenced by games) and indicate the sort of game you mean.

But then detail the structure, which is predominantly "overlong cut scenes" i.e. not the actual structure of the sort of game you describe.

It's not convincing, for me.


ecthelionsbeard
Lorien

Dec 28 2014, 9:38pm

Post #280 of 296 (923 views)
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     Well, for starters, my good sir.. [In reply to]  

Why do you say the resemblance between video games and narrative structures in movies is bad?


(This post was edited by ecthelionsbeard on Dec 28 2014, 9:38pm)


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Dec 28 2014, 10:05pm

Post #281 of 296 (889 views)
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     I do [In reply to]  

describe the structure as being like a game, but I did not say it was influenced by games. Nor did I indicate any particular game I thought it was like in my review. I merely used generic examples common to gaming structure.

Nor did I detail the structure as 'overlong cutscenes' I merely used that as a subtitle for the middle section. It is not the meat of the text at all.

In fact I have to admit to finding it interesting that those who choose to defend the film against my review do so by highlighting the framing device of my review- not any of the criticisms of the film in the text.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Dec 28 2014, 10:08pm

Post #282 of 296 (882 views)
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     Becuase [In reply to]  

in my long experience of gaming (started on a atari system with pong back in the 1970's!) narrative structure in the majority of games tends to emulate narrative structure in tv and film, but poorly.
I dont therefore see much good in a film borrowing structure from a pale imitation of itself.
There are of course gaming exceptions to the general rule- I cited SH2 above as a good example of a game whose narrative structure is dependent upon the totality of his gameplay, not on cutscenes that emulate film.
But in general most games have a poor narrative that is derivative of tv and film.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat

(This post was edited by pettytyrant101 on Dec 28 2014, 10:10pm)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Dec 28 2014, 10:14pm

Post #283 of 296 (900 views)
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     I'm responding to your clarification. [In reply to]  

And your statement that the film is structured like a game.

I wasn't just referring to your subtitle, rest assured, but to the content of the film and your description of the content, the majority of which would be cut-scenes, in your suggested structure. Games, of the type you describe, are not in fact structured in that way so I don't find it personally convincing as a conclusion (or premise).


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Dec 28 2014, 10:33pm

Post #284 of 296 (881 views)
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     Again though [In reply to]  

you are only responding to the framing device- which is not the meat of the review- the meat of the review are the numerous inconsistencies, plot dead ends, character dead ends and narrative inconsistencies which the film is plagued with and which I highlight.

However as I did point out above the Dol Guldur sequence follows the narrative structure of a game perfectly- the game play bits, not cut-scenes.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat

(This post was edited by pettytyrant101 on Dec 28 2014, 10:34pm)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Dec 28 2014, 10:35pm

Post #285 of 296 (875 views)
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     Yeah - that was the bit that interested me. [In reply to]  

And as I say, you went on to make the content point that the structure was that of a game and this was a bad structure for a film.


ecthelionsbeard
Lorien

Dec 28 2014, 10:48pm

Post #286 of 296 (854 views)
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     So what you're ultimately saying is that... [In reply to]  

The Hobbit's narrative structure is weak. Why?


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Dec 28 2014, 11:07pm

Post #287 of 296 (831 views)
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     For all the reasons [In reply to]  

I gave in my review- poor plotting, character, plot dead ends. Inconsistencies, contrivances, telling not showing. Lots of reasons- all in the review.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


Milieuterrien
Rohan

Dec 28 2014, 11:11pm

Post #288 of 296 (837 views)
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     'Plot inconstancies' are not a game indicator [In reply to]  

No videogames are built on the purpose of plot inconstancies. Plot inconstancies are just hazards and failures of their own, that may come into any narrative structure. A movie is a narrative i.e. a sequence of plots, and a game is a narrative i.e. a sequence of plots, so you can find movies exposed to plot inconstancies as well as games exposed to plot inconstancies. But the presence of plots inconstancies doesn't indicates that a particular movie is built like a game, or a game is built like a movie.

Furthermore, the structure of your thread isn't pointing inconstancies as the 'meat' of your review, on the contrary : if you state there is a 1st level, than a 2nd level, than a third one and again, this indication alone shows that you see a progression in levels, which is not an addition of inconstancies.

Adding to its absence of consistancy in pointing 'inconstancies', I also suggested that your thread was 'too long'.

If you want to point out inconstancies, why not ? But you'd better point them one by one, throughout the many appropriate threads opened by other RING-forumers avoiding a massive unreadable message which is, as you state from the beginning, overly long, and without bringing this '1st-2nd-3rd-level-argument' which is distractive and pointless because PJ did not build a videogame sequencing while following Tolkien's narrative and had no reason to do so.

And as you don't even ask for excuses in your overly long message, I guess you won't be surprized to get none from your readers.


(This post was edited by Milieuterrien on Dec 28 2014, 11:12pm)


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Dec 28 2014, 11:27pm

Post #289 of 296 (824 views)
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     You seem to still be [In reply to]  

misconstruing.

Firstly it is a review- therefore belongs on the user review thread. Thats pretty obvious and straightforward I should think.

Secondly the framing device is just that a framing device- the level 1 level 2 merely chapter headings and sub-headings to break up a long post. The text and its criticisms of the film are the meat of it. And few seem to want to take those on for debate. Yourself included.

Thirdly I can write as much or as little as I choose, and will do so without permission from anyone, you least of all.

And lastly you are and were under no obligation to read it. I put the warning of length at the start so that folk like yourself who think a long review in this fashion is inappropriate need not bother with it- not my fault you did anyway- thats your fault.

Finally I would like to say a thankyou those who have pm'd me to say they enjoyed the review- the fact those who have done so did not wish to make a public comment for fear of being jumped on by the defenders tells its own story I think.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat

(This post was edited by pettytyrant101 on Dec 28 2014, 11:30pm)


Milieuterrien
Rohan

Dec 29 2014, 12:00am

Post #290 of 296 (810 views)
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     As soon as your 'review' began, it induced a deliberate read-off [In reply to]  

... As your message stated by himself that it was overly long and didn't ask for excuses being so.
How dare you complain that most of readers don't read it till the end ?

Now you are suggesting that other people are so much terrorized by 'movie fans' that they had to send you personal messages in order to welcome you for this overly long message deliberately un-excusable ? I think that either you love building erratic fictions, either if those people are real and really hide, they could as well belong to a plot encouraging the kind of post you did post.

By its structure alone, which is by advance harrassing lecturers who WON'T read it entirely, any overly long message like the one you post shows by itself being a (smart ?) kind of trolling. And If your clandestine private correspondants are inclined to imitate THIS type of posting, they may soon end as well being seen as a bunch of deliberate trolls. So, thank you for evoking their presence in your PM, their activity can easily by now be scrutinized by moderators of the site.

Once more, if your wish is to sincerily point what you think are 'plot inconstancies', you'd better not overfill a thread destined to receive global reviews with arguings that better suit threads specifically destined to discuss precise inconstancies.


shadowdog
Rohan

Dec 29 2014, 12:10am

Post #291 of 296 (788 views)
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     agree [In reply to]  

This is a movie discussion board. Yet is seems to have been turned into a let's spit at each other thread and gotten completely off the movie.


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Dec 29 2014, 12:19am

Post #292 of 296 (786 views)
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     I did not complain anywhere [In reply to]  

that most readers dont read to the end. You are making stuff up now.

I said that I made a disclaimer so that those who had no desire to read such a long review need not bother. I made the disclaimer on the forum where I first posted this review. Or are you suggesting I was in some fashion trolling the people of that forum too by doing so?

As to trolling- well lets see- I posted a film review- since when I have had some decent responses from some and constructive criticisms form others, for which I am grateful. But from some, such as yourself, thinly veiled abuse as a response which fails at ever turn to address a single issue raised in the review.

Nor do I see how anyone pm'ing me to comment on my review is in anyway trolling. And it is very unfair and disingenuous of you to suggest that they are doing so in any fashion.

Perhaps if your posts addressed any of the issues raised in the review, rather than what you seem determined to do, which is simply to cause trouble over the fact I posted it all or to try to find says to attempt to belittle the poster (and believe me I can take the cheap shots you dish out all day long) things would be a lot more constructive.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


Milieuterrien
Rohan

Dec 29 2014, 12:19am

Post #293 of 296 (781 views)
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     So, why don't you post your own movie review [In reply to]  

....Instead of complaining that the movie-board turns off-topic ?


shadowdog
Rohan

Dec 29 2014, 12:21am

Post #294 of 296 (775 views)
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     Haven't seen it [In reply to]  

Yet. Wink


Milieuterrien
Rohan

Dec 29 2014, 12:35am

Post #295 of 296 (761 views)
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     You welcome ! [In reply to]  

Anybody is free to chose which kind of battle they prefer to look at on screen.
For myself, I plan to add some other rewatches of the movie.

... but not to add rewatchings of any so-called 'reviews' of the movie, i'm afraid ;-)


shadowdog
Rohan

Dec 29 2014, 12:45am

Post #296 of 296 (765 views)
Shortcut
     I live many miles [In reply to]  

from the nearest movie theater. (Over 60). Will catch it on DVD.

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