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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Nov 27 2014, 11:23pm
Post #1 of 27
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Bolg and Azog a bit of confusion?
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Now looking at the posts in here in general and gaging some public reaction and my own personal opinion, I wonder if PJ made a bit of a mess of the whole Bolg and Azog characters. Rather a surprising one really, for one who is so often concerned with common threads running through his movies. However, in the first one, Azog is the big, bad, and fearsome Orc-guy. Fair enough. But in the second movie, he is barely in it and Sauron replaces him with his son, Bolg. Now, after all that emotional stress over the feud between Azog and Bolg, this is totally dropped in movie 2. I suppose it might come back in movie 3 but it does seem strange just to dump all of that emotion build up for the second one. Now, fair enough, Azog wasn't that well recieved, but even so, to replace him seems a bit of a stretch and makes a little mess of that part of the movies. Couldn't he have just adjusted the look or the character of Azog instead?
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Bishop
Gondor
Nov 27 2014, 11:35pm
Post #2 of 27
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I've often wondered what the ultimate strategy is for these two characters. Also, I'm not sure where that appalling Troll/Orc things comes into all of this, but I hope he doesn't get too much screen time. There are more than enough well defined bad guys. Hopefully Bard will run him down with his cart in the first 20 minutes of the movie.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Nov 27 2014, 11:54pm
Post #3 of 27
(675 views)
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It struck me more as concentric circles of evil
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I think there is both an inexorability of Thorin's tragic fate and a sense of circles of evil returning to their root across the the three films.
In the first film we see the evil of the Orc, created by the exodus after the Dragon, drawn by the Dwarven greed.
In the second the antagonist is the dragon, drawn by the Dwarven greed
In the final film, the evil is the Dwarven greed
There is an interesting sense in which Thorin is unable to defeat these enemies as they are, in a sense, externalisations of his (and his family's) inner flaws. Rather than the films being a progress to victory, they are a descent and a return through the layers to the heart of the evil.
(This post was edited by Spriggan on Nov 28 2014, 12:05am)
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Nov 28 2014, 3:27am
Post #4 of 27
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Maybe try to Diagram this like a Math Equation on a Whiteboard?
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Thorin Hates Azog for De-Capitating his Grandfather
Azog Hates Thorin for De-Capitating his Arm below the Elbow.
Azog leaves.. Wounded
Thorin rallys his Dwaves without their Leader..Azog.
Dwaves Win the Battle
BUT, Orcs Still retain Moria,...
SSoo..you could say... this was a Draw?
Dwaves kill thousands of ORCzz, But Leave
Actually gaining Nothing? Certainly not Moria...
Some years Later...
Revenge is the only thing on Azog's mind..
End the Line of Durin..WHY?
His Arm..is a constant reminder of Thorin.
Thrain is Captured in Dol Guldur..WHY?
Sauron needs to enter his Mind..destroying his Sanity.
Here is where it really gets interesting...
Does Sauron now, know How Dwarves THINK?
By reading Thrain's mind?
..THERE is where? Sauron realizes
"Dwaves will try to Take Back Erebor".
Which would leave his Ally, Smaug incapable of controlling
That part of MiddleEARTH with the ONE Weapon
BOTH know how to use..
FEAR?
(Fear of Failure? always Kills Success.)
SSOoo. NOW the pieces of the Puzzle get Played
out in our Final film..
The Puzzle/Riddle/Equation/ Solution?
will be explained soon..
In this FINAL Film..
WHY? does bom think this? in the Production Videos
often, we saw PJ & this Team using a Whiteboard in
Conference Meetings & Rearranging the Players like
Toy Soldiers?
Can not wait to see the Final Solution.
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Nov 28 2014, 9:11am
Post #5 of 27
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WOW! Great Post! 13 Thumbs UP!.."Spriggie".//
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www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
(This post was edited by Bombadil on Nov 28 2014, 9:12am)
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor
Nov 28 2014, 10:21am
Post #6 of 27
(511 views)
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The problem of "The Hobbit" always was...
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That there's no real physical arch-enemy of our heroes. Greed is the villain. It's a children's book so there has to be a certain kind of morals in the end. Friendship. Love. Selflessness against Greed and Selfishness. That's the morale I always saw.
Many people say that SMAUG is the main villain but it he? He appears at the end of the book but is not involved in anything that happens before besides that fact that he is the reason why the Dwarves travel east.
The GOBLIN KING isn't the main villain either since he only appears in one scene/chapter and dies. Although his minions appear several times to avenge his death. The same thing with the Spiders and the Trolls. They only appear in one scene.
Is BOLG the main villain in the book? No. He is the son of AZOG so there's a connection to the line of Durin but he only appears in the end. Just like Smaug he has nothing to do with anything that happens before.
And the NECROMANCER? Is only mentioned in one sentence.
What Peter, Fran, Philippa and Guillermo did... they connected all these different villains to each other. Everyone of them has a certain connection to Dol Guldur/the Necromancer and the return of darkness in Middle-earth. In the end Tolkien already began to connect Smaug with Sauron when he wrote the Appendices for ROTK.
So what's Azogs role in the movie-verse? Basically he is in there to connect certain elements with each other. Besides Thrain he is the main link between Dol Guldur and Thorins company.
The main question remains... would it have been better if they just called him Bolg? Why not this way:
Battle of Azanulbizar:
Azog kills Thror
Dain kills Azog
Bolg wants to kill Dain but Thorin cuts off Bolgs arm (we need the Bolg-Thorin enmity)
Dwarves defeat the Orcs
Bolg captures Thrain
Before the Quest for Erebor:
Bolg brings Thrain and his Ring to Dol Guldur
Bolg allies himself with the Necromancer
Bolg kills all the Beornings except for Beorn
Bolg wants to wipe out the line of Durin and kill Thorin
Bolg puts a bounty on Thorins head
An Unexpected Journey:
Bolg learns of Thorins Quest (perhaps by Crebains?)
Bolg sends his Warg scouts to find Thorin
Goblin King informs Bolg about the Dwarves in Goblintown
Bolg and his Warg riders confront Thorin and Co
Bolg defeats Thorin
Eagles rescue the Dwarves
The Desolation of Smaug:
Bolg and his Warg riders try to follow the Dwarves
Beorn stoops them
Beorn tells Thorin about his feud with Bolg
Bolg is called to Dol Guldur
Bolg and the Necromancer discuss the war plans
Bolg sents Fimbul (his master hunter) to follow the Dwarves
Bolg confronts Gandalf in Dol Guldur
Fimbul and his Orcs are defeated at the forest river
(No Orc enters Lake-town)
Bolg leaves for Gundabad to gather the armies of the Orcs
Gandalf witnesses this
The Battle of the Five Armies:
Bolg and his troops leave Mount Gundabad
Gandalf warns the free people about the Orc army he learned about in Dol Guldur
Bolg and his armies from the North arrive
Bolg/his bodyguards kill Kili and Fili
Bolg defeats Thorin (end of the Bolg-Thorin feud)
Beorn arrives and kills Bolg (end of the Bolg-Beorn feud)
So... that would be my perfect solution. I would be fine with Manu Bennett playing Bolg (I really like him as Azog). Lawrence Makoare would be my choice for flashback Azog and Conan Stevens as a secondary Orc villain. Perhaps one of the bodyguards mentioned in the book and leader of the Warg Scouts.
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
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Foromir
Rivendell
Nov 28 2014, 10:21am
Post #7 of 27
(438 views)
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You give a strong argument for the quite serious and dark subtext of this seemingly innocent story. Great food for thought, thank you for that!
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Macsen
Lorien
Nov 28 2014, 10:59am
Post #8 of 27
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The confusion seems to arise from the fact that PJ made a lot of changes at the last minute.
Azog wasn't in AUJ until near the end, and Bolg was also inserted into DOS at the last minute (you can see Azog in some of Bolg's fight scenes in the early trailers).
If he had his time back again, PJ may well have decided to have Thorin kill Azog at the start, setting up a family feud between him and Bolg. But then he decided the prosthetic orc in AUJ wasn't a strong enough villain, and that he wanted to go CGI rather than use the prosthetic Bolg which was seen in a few pictures. To achieve that in a short space of time before release, and using footage already captured, they needed to paint Azog over the AUJ prosthetic orc (which he killed off at Weathertop). I'm not sure however why they then felt the need to include Bolg as well... perhaps Azog and Bolg will need to be in different places in the third film.
And why we need the Troll in the 3rd film I don't know. We already have 13 named villains by this point (Sauron, Smaug, The Nine, Bolg, Azog)
The funny thing is that the villains were a bit weak in LOTR. Now they're much better but there are too many of them!
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Nov 28 2014, 11:11am
Post #9 of 27
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I totally agree that Bolg could and should have taken the main villain role easily...but we know why they stuck with Azog (the Defiler), don't we? Such a cool name they just had to use it ...
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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Arannir
Valinor
Nov 28 2014, 11:22am
Post #10 of 27
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I guess there will be a certain pay-off for having two of them in BotFA.
With so many heroes taking part in the battle, it may be good for the dramatization and orchestration of the battle to have two villains present.
Of course this could have been Bolg and an invented Orc captain - but there is a certain beauty in having Bolg and Azog besides the name of the latter... especially if one knows about their relationship.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Nov 28 2014, 11:22am)
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor
Nov 28 2014, 11:26am
Post #11 of 27
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Well there are several possibilities... ;-)
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If the NAME is the only reason for letting Azog survive... why don't they thought about:
1.) Change names. Like Azog being the son of Bolg. Instead of Bolg being Azogs son. The same characters but
2.) Name him "Bolg, Son of Azog the Defiler"
3.) Name him "Azog the Defiler son of Azog the Great"
--> It's nothing special that kings in Middle-earth carry the same name as their ancestors. We've got Aragorn II. son of Arathorn II. or Thorin II. (Oakenshield) and Dains II. (Ironfoot) son named Thorin III.
Orcs are not that creative with names are not that important so it wouldn't be that strange if Azog would name his son Azog too. At least in the movie verse if the authors love the name "Azog" so much.
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
(This post was edited by Lieutenant of Dol Guldur on Nov 28 2014, 11:28am)
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Nov 28 2014, 11:35am
Post #12 of 27
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Bom is SSOoo..Glad we have TWO Kick-ASS Monsterzz..
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One in command of the Dol Guldur forces
(Which seem to have come to Camp.. there from Mordor)
One in command of the Mount Gundabad forces
THAT need instructions that " Now..... is the time to Attack"
In a Short scene inside MT.Gundabad where Bolg Tells them "The Forces have left Dol Guldur &
We will meet THEM..on Erebor's DOOR STEP.."
...Roaring Ugly guys Screemm..
Maybe even have Leggy & T-Warrior hear this &
as fast as they can..RIDE ahead of the pack..
Also, It would be cool if some of Azog's Forces
are riding Giant Spiders?
Anyway, bom would like..
THAT
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor
Nov 28 2014, 12:45pm
Post #13 of 27
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We know that there are all kinds of different war beasts bred by the Orcs. Not just Trolls and Wargs but I read about giant serpents, giant vampire bats, battle-tank beasts... why can't there be giant spiders as well?
Orcs riding spiders... why not? But I would say that full armored Orcs might be a little too heavy... but Goblins from Goblintown? They're small and light.
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Nov 28 2014, 1:03pm
Post #14 of 27
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It seems that this would mostly just be swapping Bolg for Azog and Fimbul for Bolg. We still wouldn't see the antagonist of AUJ facing the dwarves in DOS, which sounded like the OP's core issue.
I think this would have some additional / alternative potential nagatives.
Firstly, on this run through I can't see why we would have Azog or Dain in the initial section. Azog would appear, only to immediately die and I can't see that Dain's role in the third film would necessitate him cropping up at the start of the first.
Secondly, presumably, the filmakers wanted a climax in DOS for the Laketown dwarves and the errant elves. I'm not sure what alternative climax we would have for this group.
Similarly, I presume the filmakers would no more choose Beorn to kill Bolg in the third film than seems likely with the current state of play. And, I suppose, it reduces the "big baddies" available for the third film's denoument, which is not an obvious advantage.
It strikes that I'm not sure the tension with this element is particularly driven by the output we have seen on the screen, but more about having a closer name-mapping to the texts and, possibly, assumed difficulties from having observed the production processes.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Nov 28 2014, 2:17pm
Post #15 of 27
(357 views)
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T-Warrior said "the Spiders are Breeding Dol Guldur"
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SSoo where did THEY GO?
Back home..DUH? NOT....
bom
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor
Nov 28 2014, 2:33pm
Post #16 of 27
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The little robin in AUJ told Radagast that...
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the Spiders came from the old fortress. When defeated by Radagast the Spiders return "home". He follows them to Dol Guldur where he encounters the Necromancer.
He tells Gandalf that:
"Spiders, Gandalf. Giant ones. Some kind of spawn of Ungoliant or I'm not a wizard. I followed their trail, they came from... Dol Guldur."
And Tauriel tells Thranduil:
"We cleared the forest as ordered, my Lord, but more spiders keep coming up from the South. They are spawning in the ruins of Dol Guldur. If we could kill them at their source..."
So they're bred by the Necromancer to infest the whole forest of Greenwood. Since Greenwood is already infested... I could imagine that the Necromancer sends his Spiders against Erebor as well.
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
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dormouse
Half-elven
Nov 28 2014, 3:06pm
Post #17 of 27
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One spider-infested scene is quite enough, thanks!
Besides which, if they have spiders running around in the final battle where they don't belong it will start looking too much like the final battle in Harry Potter. That's my defence and I'm sticking to it. No spiders, please - I don't want to have to watch more of the Hobbit through closed eyelids.... 
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Nov 28 2014, 3:10pm
Post #18 of 27
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Come ON! dmouse..they are "MOSTLY Harmless".:.. "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"//
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www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Nov 28 2014, 3:17pm
Post #19 of 27
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I stand totally with you about this!!!
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I do have to close my eyes too, and am i glad that scene was NOT extended in the EE!...
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Nov 28 2014, 3:28pm
Post #20 of 27
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In the trailers it's obvious why (SPOILER):
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Two villains are needed to head the two orc armies descending upon the Lonely Mountain, one from Dol Guldur and one from Gundabad.
And I am personally glad the writers kept to the two names that were chosen by Tolkien to be actually mentioned in the story, Azog at the beginning and Bolg at the end.
Something might yet come out of the fact that they are father and son... that remains to be seen, and shouldn't be ruled out in advance while we don't know how it all plays out in the end.
Btw, I have never got the feeling of any 'feud' between the two.
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Nov 29 2014, 12:16am
Post #21 of 27
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if they have spiders running around in the final battle where they don't belong
Neither Azog nor Trolls belong in the battle either.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Nov 29 2014, 12:34am
Post #22 of 27
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...and the fact that they thought having Bolg out to avenge his dad would've been too confusing for us viewers. So now, they have to dedicate screen-time to TWO Orcs instead of one. I'm certain there were more than a few movie-goers who thought to themselves during DoS, "Why is this guy chasing them now? What happened to the guy from the first movie?" They spent all this time building Azog up as some great foe of Thorin in the first movie, and then for the second movie PJ did a last minute switcheroo that considerably lessened Azog's role (probably because PJ realized he'd made a mistake including Azog in the first place).
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Nov 29 2014, 12:38am
Post #23 of 27
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Hoping that this anachronism known as Azog...
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...is only there to cement Dain's character in the hearts of the viewers, because if Dain doesn't kill Azog than IMO Azog's inclusion will have been for naught.
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Name
Rohan
Nov 29 2014, 1:46am
Post #24 of 27
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From the spoiler reports that have leaked it appears like Dain will not be involved with Azog's death.
How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?
"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"
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dormouse
Half-elven
Nov 29 2014, 8:48am
Post #25 of 27
(239 views)
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... introducing one character or group of characters that weren't in the book story doesn't justify introducing others. By that logic you could have cybermen turning up, or Winnie the Pooh.
Azog is part of the film story. Whatever anyone feels about that initial decision, to leave him out now would make no sense. Trolls? Well, I suspect they're a visual thing - they add drama and scale. In any case, the real point of my post is that I hate spiders!
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