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CuriousG
Half-elven
Nov 25 2014, 8:07pm
Post #26 of 66
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Not in a bad way, but those three little bolded words always make me think Luthien felt the depths of anguish that we mortals can't imagine. What I do imagine is that she sensed her own sudden love for Beren sprout up and collide with the foresight that she would be ultimately separated from everything that she knew and everyone she cared about, this wonderful mix of sublime joy mixed with dread. It's a tribute to her how bravely she faced it, but I don't think too many people could face down inner conflicts of that kind, mortal or not. Even Arwen had trouble with it, and she had a much better idea of what she was getting into. (or maybe that was why it bothered her more)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Nov 25 2014, 8:09pm
Post #27 of 66
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Thudding indeed! That one always gets a rise out of me. Cheers for Fingolfin! //
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cats16
Half-elven
Nov 25 2014, 10:42pm
Post #28 of 66
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A great list from everyone so far. I'll throw in the Ents marching to war, as the songs (which I can't quote at the moment) moved me deeply during my last read-through.
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
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a.s.
Valinor
Nov 26 2014, 1:07am
Post #29 of 66
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Possibly in this company, somewhat trite almost and not unexpected. Nevertheless, the passage I find the most moving is in LOTR, when Frodo accepts his burden, sensing he will fail at it:
"No one answered. The noon-bell rang. Still no one spoke. Frodo glanced at all the faces, but they were not turned to him. All the Council sat with downcast eyes, as if in deep thought. A great dread fell on him, as if he was awaiting the pronouncement of some doom that he had long foreseen and vainly hoped might after all never be spoken. An overwhelming longing to rest and remain at peace by Bilbo's side in Rivendell filled all his heart. At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.
"I will take the Ring," he said, "though I do not know the way."
Also: I don't personally care for The Hobbit much, but that's not important. What's important is that if YOU care for The Hobbit, that is all that matters. Seriously.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
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Cari
Bree
Nov 26 2014, 1:47am
Post #30 of 66
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Meneldor
Valinor
Nov 26 2014, 2:56am
Post #31 of 66
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The chanting swelled, Felagund fought,
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And all the magic and might he brought
Of Elvenesse into his words.
...and Finrod fell before the throne.
:(
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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acheron
Gondor
Nov 26 2014, 2:51pm
Post #32 of 66
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my most memorable moments of the Silmarillion are tragic
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Moving in a tragic way...
Then Fëanor swore a terrible oath. His seven sons leapt straightaway to his side and took the selfsame vow together, and red as blood shone their drawn swords in the glare of the torches. They swore an oath which none shall break, and none should take, by even the name of Illúvatar, calling the Everlasting Dark upon them if they kept it not; and Manwë they named in witness, and Varda, and the hallowed mountain of Taniquetil, vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession.
Thus spoke Maedhros and Maglor and Celegorm, Curufin and Caranthir, Amrod and Amras, princes of the Noldor; and many quailed to hear the dread words. For so sworn, good or evil, an oath may not be broken, and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.
Or:
Then Manwë upon the Mountains called upon Illúvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda. But Illúvatar showed forth his power, and he changed the fashion of the world; and a great chasm opened in the sea between Númenor and the Deathless Lands, and the waters flowed down into it, and the noise and smoke of the cataracts went up to heaven, and the world was shaken. And all the fleets of the Númenóreans were drawn down into the abyss, and they were drowned and swallowed up for ever. But Ar-Pharazôn the King and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills: there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom.
But the land of Aman and Eressëa of the Eldar were taken away and removed beyond the reach of Men for ever. And Andor, the Land of Gift, Númenor of the Kings, Elenna of the Star of Eärendil, was utterly destroyed. For it was nigh to the east of the great rift, and its foundations were overturned, and it fell and went down into darkness, and is no more.
For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams
(This post was edited by acheron on Nov 26 2014, 2:52pm)
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Meneldor
Valinor
Nov 26 2014, 5:07pm
Post #33 of 66
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Maybe I'm the only one who is this slow,
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but I just now made the connection between Ar-Pharazon's army waiting for the Last Battle, and the army of the dead waiting for the king to release them from their oath. The professor loved to recycle a good idea, didn't he?
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Nov 26 2014, 6:56pm
Post #34 of 66
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“Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.”
But, sneaking off in daylight takes much more cunning.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Nov 26 2014, 7:29pm
Post #35 of 66
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Sam's star in Mordor.
Horns, horns, horns.
The flag of Gondor unfurling on the black ships.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Nov 26 2014, 9:34pm
Post #36 of 66
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The flag of Gondor unfurling on the black ships.
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Ah, the cavalry … er .. flotilla to the rescue.
I’d forgotten that one.
Thanks Aunt Dora! 
“Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.”
But, sneaking off in daylight takes much more cunning.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Nov 26 2014, 11:23pm
Post #37 of 66
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I am touched by Fili and Kili falling by Thorin
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in TH. Its so understated.
But truly, one of the times I am always affected during LOTR is when Merry pledges to Théoden...
"As a father you shall be to me!"
"For a little while."
The quiet and noble dignity of Théoden, balanced against the warm and naïve love of Merry. JRRT speaks of disliking the 'overwrought' and he certainly conveys so much with this simple exchange.
(This post was edited by Brethil on Nov 26 2014, 11:26pm)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Nov 27 2014, 1:03am
Post #38 of 66
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The fact that it's a black flag is an extra note of irony.//
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squire
Half-elven
Nov 27 2014, 1:27am
Post #39 of 66
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Did Tolkien ever acknowledge that?
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If I remember, he did admit that the root Mor- (Black) in his invented language had a resonance with the Latin root for Death. But did he ever do the same for Black, as a color (non-color), admitting it was a code for evil in his world?
Sure, the Black Riders and the use of Black/Dark for everything related to Sauron seems indicative that such a link is intended, until we learn a little more about Middle-earth. Then we begin to realize that Black is the original color of the Elves' universe: the perfect unstained night under the stars. And thus the livery of Gondor is black and silver; the wall and rock of Minas Tirith and its mountains are black; the Numenoreans' construct of Orthanc is black; and the livery of Elendil the original son of the enlightened West, as displayed in Aragorn's banner made by Arwen, is ... Black.
I agree, it seems ironic that the sails of the Corsairs and the banner of Elessar are both black. But did Tolkien himself ever acknowledge, in his writings, that he was being deliberately ironic in making black the color of Good as well as of Evil? I can't remember noticing his own admission of such, but I might have missed it.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Nov 27 2014, 1:58am
Post #40 of 66
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I don't know of an explicit statement to that effect...
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...but, yes, all the usages of black that you cite are there, and they are contradictory (and the "good" blacks also contradict the Primary World's recognition of black as evil). I think he's having a ball with it. Black Orthanc is another irony, isn't it, because the Numenorians were good but (by LotR) Saruman is bad.
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a.s.
Valinor
Nov 27 2014, 2:12am
Post #41 of 66
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did Tolkien himself ever acknowledge, in his writings, that he was being deliberately ironic in making black the color of Good as well as of Evil? I can't remember noticing his own admission of such, but I might have missed it.
I don't think this is quite what you are asking, as I'm not sure if he did (of did not) acknowledge deliberate irony in this matter.
But he was aware of the different interpretations made both by characters in the novel and by readers, and aware that it would be noted by the reader the two uses of black in this context.
In the story of Tal-Elmar in "Peoples of ME", when Tal-Elmar goes aboard the Numenorean ships, 3 with white sails and 1 with black, he is afraid BASED on the black sails which have come to be known as representing evil enemy invaders. The Numenoreans on the ships ask him,
"But why do you speak so of the black sails? The black sails are to us a sign of honour, for they are the fair night before the coming of the Enemy, and upon the black are set the silver stars of Elbereth. The black sails of our captain have passed further up the water."
Still Tal-Elmar was afraid because he was not yet able to imagine black as anything but the symbol of the night of fear.
So I'd say Tolkien knew the effect he was having here in LOTR, based on the earlier story. I don't know if that is an illustration of "deliberate irony", though.
a.s.
(I don't own PoME, I am quoting from Scull and Hammond LOTR Reader's Companion in the section discussing Aragorn's banner on the ships)
"an seileachan"
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Nov 27 2014, 2:22am
Post #42 of 66
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Yes, black sails and black ships
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Yet the standard of Elessar apparently could made out at quite a distance (somewhat less than a mile perhaps?)
And wonder took him, and a great joy; and he cast his sword up in the sunlight and sang as he caught it. . . upon the foremost ship a great standard broke, and with wind displayed it as she turned towards the Harlond. There flowered a White Tree, and that was for Gondor; but Seven Stars were about it, and a high crown above it, the signs of Elendil that no lord had borne for years beyond count. And the stars flamed in the sunlight, for they were wrought of gems by Arwen daughter of Elrond; and the crown was bright in the morning, for it was wrought of mithril and gold. (RotK, Battle of the Pelennor Fields.)
I’m sure the background was black but I can’t locate textual notation (anyone?)
“Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.”
But, sneaking off in daylight takes much more cunning.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Nov 27 2014, 2:35am
Post #44 of 66
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But he used a lot of black did he not
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Black Gate
Black Numenoreans
Black Land
Black Breath
Black Stone (Erech)
Blackroot
Black Shadow
Black Captain
Black Riders
Black Hand
Black Pit
Black Speech
(more?) Most all of course in a negative connotation. Wonder he didn't run out of Black Ink. 
“Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.”
But, sneaking off in daylight takes much more cunning.
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a.s.
Valinor
Nov 27 2014, 3:09am
Post #45 of 66
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There is probably an earlier reference to the background color that is escaping my mind, but later when Sam and Frodo come before the King on the Field of Cormallen, the text says,
Behind the seat on the right floated, white on green, a great horse running free; upon the left was a banner, silver upon blue, a ship swan-prowed faring on the sea; but behind the highest throne in the midst of all a great standard was spread in the breeze, and there a white tree flowered upon a sable field beneath a shining crown and seven glittering stars."
I remember this because Imrahil is one of my favorite unexplored characters in LOTR. I ALWAYS wish there was just a bit more about that kingdom by the sea and the knights of Dol Amroth!
a.s.
"an seileachan"
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a.s.
Valinor
Nov 27 2014, 3:13am
Post #46 of 66
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mumbles incoherently about texts other than LOTR....
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Well. I have never read entirely through most of PoME either, and by that I mean I haven't read hardly ANY of it.
You know I can't even keep the characters in the Sil properly in their places in the order of beings...After all these years I still am totally confused by Sindar and Noldor and etc.
But the LOTR Reader's Companion? Oh. I am starting to be able to quote whole pages.
LOL.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Nov 27 2014, 3:26am
Post #47 of 66
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Oh, that mysterious land! I wish we had more information on it and Prince Imrahil also. Not just the origins of how there came to be Elven blood there, and Amroth swimming out to sea, but what was Dol Amroth like in the current day--couldn't we get a tour and spend a week at Imrahil's court? I always feel like there's a lot more to tell about him and his home. *sigh*
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Nov 27 2014, 4:14am
Post #48 of 66
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That's the quote I was looking for..
Thanks a.s.
“Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.”
But, sneaking off in daylight takes much more cunning.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Nov 27 2014, 2:58pm
Post #49 of 66
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There is that moment of almost eucatastrophe
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when the elves look up and see the Silmaril as a star. I don't have it in front of me, but I remember that making a vivid impression on me.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Nov 27 2014, 3:13pm
Post #50 of 66
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Now when first Vingilot was set to sail in the seas of heaven, it rose unlooked for, glittering and bright; and the people of Middle-earth beheld it from afar and wondered, and they took it for a sign, and called it Gil-Estel, the Star of High Hope. And when this new star was seen at evening, Maedhros spoke to Maglor his brother, and he said: ‘Surely that is a Silmaril that shines now in the West?’ (Sil. Of the Voyage of Earendil.)
“Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.”
But, sneaking off in daylight takes much more cunning.
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