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Crunchable Birdses
Rohan
Nov 25 2014, 2:51pm
Post #26 of 51
(553 views)
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Good lord, look up "strawman" in a dictionary!
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Your post was just about the strawmanniest strawman that was ever planted in the wheat-field.
You totally misrepresented my argument, and based your response on that.
* crunch *
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Nov 25 2014, 2:59pm
Post #27 of 51
(510 views)
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That's exactly why I do the same as you...//
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'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Nov 25 2014, 3:04pm
Post #28 of 51
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The thing that doesn't chime with me about the argument
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that the two film trilogies shouldn't be closely tied and inter-referenced is that, it seems to me, this is exactly the approach that Tolkien took in creating his own sequel. In some ways it seems counter-intuitive to appreciate this in the texts but dislike it in the films.
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Nov 25 2014, 3:06pm
Post #29 of 51
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Better to just stop this little discussion then...//
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'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Nov 25 2014, 3:21pm
Post #30 of 51
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It's OK, thanks, I do know what it means...
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I just don't agree with you!
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dormouse
Half-elven
Nov 25 2014, 3:26pm
Post #31 of 51
(493 views)
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The linking was Tolkien's long before it was Peter Jackson's.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Nov 25 2014, 3:29pm
Post #32 of 51
(478 views)
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I agree, though I would go beyond linking
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With the whole of Middle Earth and time to choose from, the creation of a sequel with so many intextual references, shared characters, locations, themes, tonal directions, episodes etc. etc. seems to me to be a very overt choice.
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Nov 25 2014, 3:43pm
Post #33 of 51
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I would say for Tolkien it was one and the same
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story, as Sam himself once said, in which Bilbo had had his time of participating, and now it was their time...
That underlying Unity is precisely one of the things that make Tolkien's world so dear to me, and a fact which I'm so glad PJ tried his best to make visible and understood by all through this second trilogy.
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Nov 25 2014, 3:45pm
Post #34 of 51
(452 views)
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I've never really understood the argument for treating The Hobbit as an independent story. It was only that before Lord of the Rings was conceived as its sequel, and I doubt if anyone here was around to experience it in that way. Tolkien made them part of each other and of the whole mythology.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Nov 25 2014, 3:55pm
Post #35 of 51
(449 views)
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Sure, I will bash on WB for this ham-fisted effort...tho agree w. your post
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Not that I don't agree with your very well-worded post - mostly.
You think they shouldn't acknowledge - in just one of umpteen TV ads - that this is
a) related to Lord of the Rings and
b) the last of Peter Jackson's Middle Earth films. *Shrug* this spot was so badly done I thought when the clip started it was a mistake or joke, e.g. some old ad for LOTR - and I do mean OLD in that to me, there are parts of LOTR that look dated including the Frodo clip. It's pretty forced. I was about to mouse-click elsewhere....
I understand what you are saying and think it's correct, but IMO too bad the Hobbit films - and I would point out to PJ if I could, I think deserve to NOT be constantly carrying the burden of LOTR (no pun intended), which has its own issues IMO.
To me this kind of thing seems to be a kind of - well, put down of the miracle IMO the Hobbit films are, which to me stand beautifully alone, and however the filmmakers intended, not everyone wants or needs the relentless reminders. For me in general the performances in the Hobbit way overtop LOTR, for one thing, so I like to see the cast get that respect and not have RA and LE and whoever (maybe the war boar) compared to Aragorn and so on especially when RA can actually deliver a speech *cough*.
*Ahem*. But I do understand what you are saying, and true enough, the other TV spots have been great and I have really enjoyed those, more so than the trailer actually whose editing I thought was too ponderous and some other issues. They changed my view of BOFA.
And sure, I'd bash WB , because I am still sad that IMO they didn't go all out with the PR (so far) and it isn't even up to par with AUJ; plus posts from folks describing all the beautiful things that were made in connection with LOTR. Perhaps the world changed since then, but I would have liked to have owned some nice imagery and collectibles for the Hobbit films, because none of this will ever happen again, not with this cast and this vision.
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Noria
Gondor
Nov 25 2014, 3:57pm
Post #36 of 51
(441 views)
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I liked the spot and enjoyed the link to LotR.
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Why not make that link in the promotions? The movies go together. Some of you are already talking about six-movie boxed sets and marathons.
My primary interest of The Hobbit novel lies in its link to LotR and the rest of the Middle Earth saga. The movies I like more for themselves.
Thanks for posting it.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Nov 25 2014, 4:25pm
Post #37 of 51
(431 views)
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Bash on at WB, if you like....
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... I'm not trying to silence anyone's argument, just to balance things a bit.
I agree with you that the Hobbit films are a miracle and would stand alone - and hold their own against any other franchise you can name - if they had to. Visually they're in a class of their own; the acting performances have been superb, and whatever anyone else tells me, the computer work still takes my breath. But the thing is, they don't have to stand alone. With the same director, script writers, concept artists, actors for repeated roles, composer; many of the same artists and production staff and a storyline which runs on unbroken into the earlier films it would be impossible to separate the two trilogies even if you want to.
For myself, I don't want to. I loved the first trilogy and now I'm getting a chance to go back into that world. When the official video of 'The Last Goodbye' was released I loved the way the two came together and blended - and were so obviously one stylistically and thematically that I had a quiet chuckle reading all the posts that said the LotR clips were so much better than The Hobbit - not for me, they weren't. They were all one and I really enjoyed seeing them that way.
I get what you're saying about The Hobbit, though. It has been overshadowed by the success of its big brother and isn't getting the credit it deserves. I'm afraid that was inevitable. Things never happen the same way twice, and so many fantasy films have jumped aboard Peter Jackson's coat tails that the audience and the profession can't be taken by surprise again - they know Peter Jackson can do this. And Warners don't have the same emotional investment that New Line did, for them it's just another film. Things have changed - but the one thing that hasn't changed, I think, is that we have an exceptional film series to wallow in for years to come. And there have been some pretty nice images and collectables, haven't there? And memories?
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Nov 25 2014, 4:40pm
Post #38 of 51
(416 views)
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I think that appropriate references to LotR in The Hobbit films are been fine and actually belong in the trilogy: Gollum and the Ring, Elrond and Galadriel, for instance, are entirely right for it, and this sort of thing would have been sufficient to provide a good link with LotR.
However, stuffing an older, stouter Legolas into the film (he looks older than Thranduil!), and giving him a role that involves those awful facial expressions he pulls, zombie eyes, and stupid stunts really lowers the tone of The Hobbit for me. A cameo appearance would have been absolutely fine, but this extension of the character, and the whole storyline around it, is badly written and unnecessary, in my view. Worse, it takes away from characters that do belong in The Hobbit and needed expansion, such as Beorn and the Dwarves.
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TnuaccayM
Bree
Nov 25 2014, 4:44pm
Post #39 of 51
(408 views)
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.. that the army of orcs coming out from the mountain in these recent tv spots actually look like the LotR armored goblins? :D
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Bishop
Gondor
Nov 25 2014, 5:08pm
Post #40 of 51
(402 views)
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Personally I have two problems with this trailer
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First of all I think to the casual moviegoer it is extremely confusing. For all intents and purposes it gives the impression that the Hobbit follows LOTR, and that just seems weird to me. I also don't understand the need to keep ramming home the idea that this is the "Defining Chapter" of the entire ME saga. What does that even mean?
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Fàfnir
Rohan
Nov 25 2014, 6:07pm
Post #41 of 51
(340 views)
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but it sounds important and i hadn't even fought of what it could mean until now, so I guess as far as marketing goes it's pretty okay
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 25 2014, 6:18pm
Post #42 of 51
(341 views)
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It seems odd that Warner Brothers is leveraging off the enormously popular first trilogy
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to get people along to the final film of the second trilogy.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Bishop
Gondor
Nov 25 2014, 6:22pm
Post #43 of 51
(319 views)
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And it's probably a great marketing tool. It's a tad overblown though to imply that this film is the is the one that defines the entirety of the saga.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Nov 25 2014, 9:40pm
Post #44 of 51
(276 views)
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LOL dormouse, I still think re your writing
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you are high elf of some kind, able to see another person's point of view while showing another way to look at things (will you look into the mirror? *smiles*)
For myself, I don't want to. I loved the first trilogy and now I'm getting a chance to go back into that world. When the official video of 'The Last Goodbye' was released I loved the way the two came together and blended - and were so obviously one stylistically and thematically that I had a quiet chuckle reading all the posts that said the LotR clips were so much better than The Hobbit - not for me, they weren't. They were all one and I really enjoyed seeing them that way....
And Warners don't have the same emotional investment that New Line did, for them it's just another film. Things have changed - but the one thing that hasn't changed, I think, is that we have an exceptional film series to wallow in for years to come. And there have been some pretty nice images and collectables, haven't there? And memories?
*Laughs* well, I would counter that there haven't been nearly ENOUGH images and collectibles , but if it means that much to me, I can get busy 'shopping and see if I can come up with my own stuff - the Valar knows the fan community has done some utterly beautiful work re the Hobbit . Tho I think there will never be art like the films themselves.
And there is my own "world view" in that mentally for me re the books, there has always been a sense of distance between the two (the Hobbit is the Hobbit, LOTR is LOTR...) - the different tone, the actual years. That's just me, but it's a pretty inset feeling - it's actually why I initially had not a lot of interest when I heard about PJ doing the Hobbit, I really believed he was taking a little break of some kind and vaguely thought PJ was going to make a little kiddy film. So for memories, that's one of mine LOL - going from initially dismissive to becoming a fanatic of sorts *grins* and the Hobbit movies would become my favorites of all. (That's another good memory, the first trickle of dwarf images, they were so rich and nothing like the "garden gnomes" I was expecting....yes, lots of good memories)
Thank you for understanding it's primarily the cast, and the work that was done re sets on the Hobbit, that I fiercely want to see get their just due . Not just my beloved Thorin & co., but all those I watch in the mind-boggling Appendices who worked so hard, and with such commitment - I can see in the Appendices how much cast and crew cared, and took pride in their work, even those small details. And I am not saying I think the performances in LOTR are bad - in fact w. TTT especially there are some I find riveting. But the cast in the Hobbit to me has just been indescribable, and it's all the more impressive when I see how often they had to perform, and there is nothing in the room at all .
*Cough* maybe I will watch the Last Goodbye vid one day - the song really (for now) is not my thing at all, but perhaps one day.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Nov 26 2014, 12:02am
Post #46 of 51
(231 views)
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LOL Glorfindela - trying to be good
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E.g. desperately hanging onto a "wait and see" attitude in spite of Legolas channeling Aragorn's line (which I can't fault OB for, since it was his job to say it) and in spite of the fact that I am still flinching at certain scenes in DOS, that a good-resolution BR is not helping.
But actually, re all these trailers and TV spots distressingly (for me) seems to be an awful lot of a certain character being Wonder Woman, to the point it almost seems like Legolas is some sort of secondary-tier character. But I am hoping dwarf time, Beorn time, is being kept hidden, because the filmmakers have to keep back something.
However, if Beorn, Thranduil, the dwarves don't get their just due, IMO, at the end - well, I hope I am either at a con, or can witness another fan one day, asking PJ & co. WHY certain decisions were made. And one day my "Forward" button will be seeing some seriously heavy use.
And will concede, for me, flat-out while in certain scenes I think OB looks pretty good *shrug* Lee Pace is just beautiful. HE looks ageless and flawless and the most elfiest elf ever, IMO.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Nov 26 2014, 12:19am
Post #47 of 51
(225 views)
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You manage to be much more diplomatic than I am, Avandel (and also to find some great pictures).
I keep saying to myself that I will restrain myself, but then something sparks off a reaction in me, and I'm off again, on my two most non-favourite subjects in DoS. I suppose this happens because of my great disappointment in DoS, after loving AUJ, and also when I think about how many great things there are in the films, and how much effort was put into them, only to be wasted to a large degree (on me) because of a few very poor decisions with regard to the storyline. It has also really, really irked me that two non-canon characters have been given so much publicity, far above that given to characters that are key to the story and really do belong in it.
Lee Pace is fantastic as Thranduil, and the most Elf-like, ethereal creature I've ever seen. He's really what all Elves should be like, in terms of mystery and aloofness – not to mention beauty. And Lee Pace can certainly act…
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Avandel
Half-elven
Nov 26 2014, 12:41am
Post #48 of 51
(223 views)
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Trying for courtesy but it slips
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There's a lot to be said for just saying how things are. And I try to remember there will be fans for all characters even if I personally think something is ripe cheese *love scene...snerk*.
But, yeah, I've been kind of straining lately because of things that are showing up in the TV spots that I am not too happy with:
It has also really, really irked me that two non-canon characters have been given so much publicity, far above that given to characters that are key to the story and really do belong in it.
Yep, I might as well say it, for me Tauriel in TV spots, here, there, everywhere, unsinged, undirty, heroic.....oops, I am sliding down that slippery slope. Then again, I am probably in trouble for really resenting Elijah Wood for showing up at the AUJ premieres and being some sort of occasional spokesperson, because that's a lot for like being in a film for a few minutes IMO. At least in the latest round of articles EL has quit talking about "Lost" zzzzzzzzz tho in person for me - *meh*. Seeing her stuntie in the Appendices - wow, very pretty, very cool personality, badass, made me wonder why not just hire her for Tauriel and save some money! Unfortunately now I am beginning to easily tell the two apart when watching DOS, so that's disconcerting.
For right now, I don't know what to think, re the final film. Find myself worrying less about Legolas because to me, in these TV spots, he seems pretty much sidelined at the moment. Let us hope, however, we have seen the last of the surfing ANYTHING.
Am glad you enjoy LP as Thranduil - for me LP as Thranduil has evoked all the legends and tales I have ever read of the "Fair Folk". His scenes in BOFA are some I look most forward to, and can only hope he has plenty of screen time, unlike *sigh* DOS.
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Danielos
Rohan
Nov 26 2014, 6:23am
Post #49 of 51
(200 views)
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LOTR material in Hobbit trailer
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I am not against using some shots from LOTR in a Hobbit trailer but then it should be of material that is relevant to The Hobbit like: Old Bilbo, Gollum, Legolas, Gandalf the Grey, Sauron, Saruman, Galadriel, Elrond and the Ring.
Aragorn, Arwen, Sam, Merry & Pippin does not belong in a Hobbit trailer.
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DwellerInDale
Rohan
Nov 26 2014, 7:16am
Post #50 of 51
(187 views)
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Sorry but just have to jump in here...
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Opinions are opinions, but when you start to say stuff that's contradictory to the evidence...well, someone has to step in and defend Tauriel...
"Wonder Woman"? "undirty"? All we've seen is Bolg block her attack and throw her against a wall like a bale of hay...and she's wounded, blood dripping down one cheek, a wound under the other eye...
Don't mess with my favorite female elf.
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