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boldog
Rohan
Nov 16 2014, 10:08am
Post #1 of 11
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A few interesting questions
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I love exploring deep into Tolkiens works, and for now on im going to try and ask 3 interesting questions often.
This weeks ones have popped into my mind only a few days ago, but im sure many more will come up
1. If divers were able to dive deep under the ocean west of the grey havens in the third age, Would they be able to see the ruins of Beleriand?
Could great cities like Gondolin, Menegroth, and Nargothrond, now be "Atlantis" like cities, taken over by the ocean life? If not, would there be any trace of Beleriand that could be discovered under the water?
2. Was Numenor west of Beleriand, or Post 1st age Endor?
After the drowning of Beleriand, Elros and the faithful Edain were given an island to live on and make as their own, very close to valinor. But this got me thinking. Could Numenor have been a part of Beleriand that was not drowned by the sea? Beleriand was rather close to Valinor, so it would seem possible. But if Numenor was further west than Beleriand, then that would make it very closer to Valinor and further from Middle earth, thus making it harder for Mariners to find the western shores of Endor.
3. Would the Orcs know of the Valar, and Maiar?
Considering that they are bred to be purely evil, and have hardly any knowledge of good, would their hearts even be able to comprehend such beings? Im sure they would all know of Sauron, Gothmog, and Morgoth, but would they know of their origins, and the controlling powers that govern Arda? Or are they just too ignorant of these things that they take little heed of it, possibly referring it to "Elvish folklore". The big question is WOULD THE ORCS KNOW OF ERU?
Like I said I want to make this a regular thing, because i Have a really long list of questions and interesting theories concerning many things in tolkiens lore. I cant do them all at once
Azog and Bolg. That is all I can say.............
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Nov 17 2014, 12:25am
Post #2 of 11
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I think the answer to question No. 1 is in question No. 2. In other words, Numenor was likely the ancient "drowned" civilization that divers likely would find underneath the sea. It would appear the world was broken too many times for the ruins of Beleriand to be found, although one could not rule it out completely.
Numenor is like the ancient Greek myth of Atlantis, so that would be the lost civilization our hypothetical divers would probably find.
As to question No. 3, to me that would depend upon the origin of the Orcs. If they were corrupted Avari (or any race of Elves), they would know of Valinor and the Gods, at least in rumor. If they were created out of some other beings by Morgoth, maybe they would have no idea of the Valar. The question depends on the nature of the Orcs. If they are sentient beings (which they obviously are), then you can argue they have some idea of their surroundings. If they are just biological robots or automotons. maybe not.
Nevertheless, the Orcs of the First Age did fight in the War of Wrath, and therefore would have at least known they were fighting mighty beings from the West. Would those Orcs of the First Age pass down their knowledge so that those of the Third Age would know? Maybe, maybe not. They were not completely wiped out, so some of them would have survived to tell.
At the least, we know that some Orcs in the First Age came in direct contact with the Gods (even if these were lesser gods), so some of them knew. Did they know before the battle or after most of them were wiped out? Again, depends on their nature.
(A side note: It doesn't appear that many races or beings by the Third Ages knew of the Gods. Did most Hobbits know of Valinor? Men? Dwarves? Probably not, so would it be fair to ask the same of the Orcs)....
(This post was edited by HeWhoArisesinMight on Nov 17 2014, 12:28am)
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Nov 17 2014, 8:16pm
Post #3 of 11
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First, let me say that I love these kinds of posts! It makes me go back to the books and rediscover new things, allows me to help other Tolkien-fans, and encourages me to indulge in one of my favourite pastimes: speculation outside the published works. Keep asking questions!
To answer #1, I'd say maybe. Personally, when I see the drowning of Beleriand, I see it as a result of the 'War of Wrath', and one that took a while. It was not a cataclysmic event, else how would the Free Peoples not involved in the Valar's crusade know to migrate east? I think that the massive power displayed by the Valar to subjugate Melkor/Morgoth unsettled the geological balance of Beleriand, and it slowly caused the continent to sink into a fault. It is definitely possibly, but given the massive forces of nature I imagine to be set in place, I doubt it. If they were not over-run and destroyed by Morgoth, what are the odds the complex survived?
On a slightly more positive note, we do have internal book speculation that Tol Morwen ( Nienor and Turin's cenotaph) remained above the waves, as well as the death mound of Glorifindel of Gondolin. Also, the high place of Numenor, Meneltarma, was said to rise above the waves of destruction, so we could speculate that some divine providence could have saved them. Treebeard did say that he hoped to walk the vales of Beleriand again, a wish that Galadriel shared in their LotR meeting.
So how do you see the Ruin of Beleriand taking place?
#2 A helpful quote:
'A land was made for the Edain to dwell in, neither part of Middle-earth nor of Valinor, for it was sundered from either by a wide sea; yet it was nearer to Valinor. It was raised by Osse out of the depths of the Great Water, and it was established by Aule....'
pg. 260 The Silmarillion: The Akallabeth; Houghton-Mifflin 1997 First American Ed. (Emphasis mine)
Of course, this is a result of the compilation of several drafts by CT, and it would take more research to confirm that this was a constant facet of the story, but it is what went to print.
#3
Hewhoarises has it pretty much covered, but I'll add a bit. Of course the orcs had fought the Valar and Maiar, so if we take any kind of RL analogue, you would probably get to know your enemy and their beliefs pretty well. Whether they believed it, or thought it propaganda, or just didn't care is also up for speculation. Hewhoarises does bring up a good point of the seeming lack of spirituality in M-E. Not many actually 'worship' in an organised manner. So if the good-guys don't how much less the bad-guys?
The opening line of this question though does invite comment. The origin of the orcs has always been a tricky subject,(Much like the existence of Balrogs and their wings). As an idea, it evolved over time, and Tolkien struggled with an explanation. If they were their own race, why would a good deity, Eru, create them? If they were twisted Men or Elves, what did that mean for their souls? There is a wealth of discussion here, but as I am pressed for time ATM, I will simply point it out, and leave it to others to elabourate if I am unable to return.
Great questions, I hope to come back and discuss some more!
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
(This post was edited by Rembrethil on Nov 17 2014, 8:17pm)
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Nov 17 2014, 8:56pm
Post #4 of 11
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Addendum: On the goodness of orcs
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Here is a discussion we had on orcs if you care to peruse it following my notation on the origin and goodness of orcs.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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boldog
Rohan
Nov 18 2014, 8:14am
Post #5 of 11
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Very interesting discussion rembrethil
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Many of thosse things are always debated in my head haha 
Azog and Bolg. That is all I can say.............
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Cillendor
Lorien
Nov 20 2014, 10:28pm
Post #6 of 11
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Regarding the question on religion,
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One could make a claim for the Hobbits at least having some sort of religion or belief in a higher power. As you mentioned a couple of months back, Sam uses the phrase, "Lor bless you." To be consistent with the world, he is likely referencing some sort of deity worshiped by the Hobbits, whether that be Eru or one of the gods or some imaginary force.
Here's the post. I think you were arguing before against it being a reference to a deity, but I postulate that the Hobbits had at least some rudimentary sense of a god. Scientifically, that is even part of the human condition (read this to see what I mean).
Now as to how much they knew of the specifics of the spiritual world, I would guess that is very little.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Nov 21 2014, 12:19am
Post #7 of 11
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As a common saying, "Lor bless you" is not evidence...
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...of belief in a higher power. People use these phrases with no consciousness whatever of what they mean. Even in its original incarnation, "Lord bless you" could perfectly well have expressed hope that one's feudal lord of times past might look on one favorably.
The theoretical basis of LotR is Sam's Red Book. If Sam either had no personal religion or did not choose to discuss it, it wouldn't tell us what Frodo or other hobbits believed or knew. The Sil & related parts of the legendarium are theoretically based on Elven documents, history, and legends, and of course the Elves had these in abundance.
The external point, of course, is that Tolkien studiously avoided delving into religious beliefs in TH and LotR, so most of these questions fall into the category of things like "Who/what is Bombadil" that Tolkien simply chose not to tell us, so we don't know. I take his assertion to his priest friend that LotR was a "profoundly Catholic work" with a whole tablespoon of salt, an assertion that he knew would make his friend happy but was never intended to be published as his sworn testimony.
Yes, it's frustrating, sometimes.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Nov 21 2014, 12:23am)
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Plurmo
Rohan
Nov 21 2014, 2:24am
Post #8 of 11
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3 - Yes, a small band, known as the Eruk-hai.
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The Blue Wizards took them along in their expedition into the Blue. For ages there was no longer any memory of their existence, until they started to ressurface, disguised as televangelists, so they became known as the Teleru.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Nov 23 2014, 2:21am
Post #9 of 11
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The only organised religions were founded in Beleriand and Numenor.
In Beleriand Melkor set himself up as a deity to the Men. Could you really call this religion though, or would you call it 'false' religion? None of the other 'gods' (Valar) wanted or sought worship. (He also did this in Numenor before the Downfall)
The one and only instance of worship of the creator of Arda, Eru, was in Numenor. There they had Meneltarma and ceremony, temples and the like. None of that seems to have been carried over to Gondor or Arnor. Well, perhaps the Kings' High Hallow in Gondor could count?
You also have the Dwarves worship of Mahal (Aule), but that seems the limit of religion in Middle-Earth.
I think that the lack of detail in this regard, was due to his expressed wish to make a mythology that could be accepted, if only 'badly', by a Catholic mind. I cannot find the reference ATM, I know it is in Letters. Can anyone remember it?
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Nov 23 2014, 2:31am
Post #10 of 11
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Just throwing this out there: in "The Passing of the Grey Company" Aragorn gives the history of the Dead (the men of the White Mountains) and why they broke their oath to Isildur: "for they had worshipped Sauron in the Dark Years."
But overall, religious observance is remarkably scant. The Elves revere Varda and sing to her, but there don't seem to be temples to her, or priests or priestesses of Varda, or roadside shrines, etc., so I'm not sure that's religious. Maybe it's the equivalent of modern day celebrity worship.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Nov 23 2014, 2:41am
Post #11 of 11
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That it was a sort of more externalised faith. Elves and Men have known the Valar, and at least heard of Eru, I would assume. They have, or had, a more complete picture of the Divine than I'd say is present in our world. In Arda, there is also a more defined struggle of Good vs. Evil. It's easy to see Sauron/Melkor=bad; Elves/Valar/Eru=good. Thus, I'd say that the 'religion' of Arda is far more proactively based and finds its fulfillment more in action than belief. I don't see any missionaries asking for Eru worship, and his emissaries only encourage the Free Peoples to rise an take positive action against the Evil. Eru seems to take no interest in worship, just the fulfillment of his Theme and whether you are in tune or not. I'd say that the belief system in Arda is more simplistic than the Primary World, and it makes the morality of a person easier to determine as it often leads to direct action.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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