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Avandel
Half-elven
Nov 14 2014, 12:25am
Post #1 of 10
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*SPOILERY* pondering - classic Thranduil line; Thorin & Bard
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1) Wonder if this line is going to show up. From the book (not that specific memories of mine are that great) guess this line has stuck with me for a long time:
Long will I tarry, ere I begin this war for gold.
As I recall at the time, because as I read (some things) they get pictured in my mind, and for me this one simple pure line opened an entirely new vision of the book Thranduil for me, an image of a wise elven king who had lived a very long time and perhaps while he was irritated and frustrated with this pack of truculent dwarves and had had them thrown into cells - well, now, things are serious, and this elven king well knew the cost of a major conflict.
Just pondering because of the mentions re the film that a primary motive for Thranduil is this necklace, and SO FAR as depicted the Thranduil I'm seeing seems more determined, not thoughtful - one who has had it with these dwarves - Thorin (and Thror) in particular and having left the forest, isn't going to return until he gets what he wants. (And what would the dwarves be doing with Thranduil's wife's necklace? - don't have the companion books ).
In any case, if this is an angry, fed up Elven King, was speculating how this classic line would get folded into that motivation, because ??? Thranduil would not begin a war for gold, but he would for this necklace? And will Thranduil (being a fey elf who has lived long) understand really quickly that he's not even dealing with a sane Thorin at this point? If he does, will he even care? Or knowing that Thorin is mad with dragon-sickness, from Thranduil's perspective it's even more reason to engage?
2) One thing I do like is the friction between Thorin and Bard re the book and now in the films has A) remained intact; and B) think the films have a nice balance. IMO the presentation in the films for me so far has been great; each race with their own motivations but don't think either comes across as wholly wrong, or wholly right. I utterly love Thorin - my favorite character - but one of the things that has struck me is Luke Evans' Bard, e.g. I can believe that this man could be furious and frantic over Thorin; could take in a sick dwarf when no-one else would; could in his rage and pain tell this king "you have brought only ruin and death"; could be practically begging Thorin to make another choice vs. war.
Just sayin' think Luke Evans deserves some kudos as I think he is achieving a somewhat difficult balancing act. I saw the book Bard as far less appealing, myself (tho there too Thorin is my favorite). Don't remember liking Bard much, in the book, if at all (which I will re-read at some point when the films have settled with me). I think the scene of Bard looking at the lines of elven warriors says volumes about him.
And *sigh* re the movie Thorin and Bard I think they could have been friends in time; Thorin in Erebor; Bard in Dale.
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Nov 14 2014, 7:23am
Post #2 of 10
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I too love that Thranduil line from the book
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and I wish they will find a way to use it - and to make it clear Thranduil is NOT such a villain as he has been depicted most of the time until now. Some posts were hinting that it is actually Legolas he wants to have back...
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Nov 14 2014, 1:41pm
Post #3 of 10
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Yes - that line has been in my head since I first read the book...
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... at about eight years old. I loved the Elvenking and everything about him, and that line told me everything I needed to know about what a noble and wonderful character he was. (Have to confess I didn't like the dwarves at all then - that's changed!  )
I do hope they will give Thranduil a chance to say that, or to express that side of his personality in some way, if not in that way.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Nov 14 2014, 3:34pm
Post #4 of 10
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Love my dwarves but never see Thranduil as a villain/Legolas back???
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Some posts were hinting that it is actually Legolas he wants to have back...
Er, Legolas hasn't gone anywhere and as far as I can tell has been depicted as a dutiful son, so where was Legolas supposed to have gone?????
It's been said before but for me Thranduil both book and movie is an Elven King, in synergy with the forest and fey, unfathomable, feral, ageless, and can be dangerous. Like the dwarves being dwarves and hoarding stuff and being fiesty, Thranduil is who he is, and WHAT he is.
That IMO doesn't make him a villain, but DOES make him fascinating. For me the most elvish of the elves in PJ's Middle Earth.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Nov 14 2014, 3:48pm
Post #5 of 10
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Love when a single sentence can paint so much!
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I too fervently hope that line is woven into PJ's version of events; think everyone on the board knows these snippets used in trailers are just for an effect of sorts. For one thing re the films think it would not be logical for Bard to ally with Thranduil so readily unless some immediate help was offered - getting gold is nice but far as I can see Laketown's burning left all with little but what they might have been wearing.
Kudos to many of the original lines from these movies !
The "where does your journey end" and the way it was said gave me chills as for me it was so evocative, so one day perhaps there will be that "director's cut" I fantasize about. Tho trying to contain my greed because I really hafta remember that we might not have had these movies at all!
Plus I haven't even had time to watch the Appendices yet so I have hours of goodness ahead.
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Nov 15 2014, 5:20am
Post #6 of 10
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following Tauriel, and hasn't come back yet - and in the meantime the dragon WAS woken up as Thranduil feared, and has destroyed Lake-town as he anticipated... and Legolas, from all appearances in the trailers, is still away back with Tauriel, going to Mt Gundabad and what not, while his father worries about him, the last of his lineage as well as his last link with the wife he already lost...
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Nov 15 2014, 5:34am
Post #7 of 10
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That's because the Dwarves themselves have changed!!!
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I mean, from the book to these movies!... I used not to like them either, when PJ had not yet re-vamped them the way he luckily did, and the book gave the only depiction of those Dwarves, both physically and psychologically. I doubt they would have had any sympathy from the viewers, let alone have had any fangirls as several of them have now, if in the films too PJ had kept them the same as in the book... 
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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Avandel
Half-elven
Nov 16 2014, 12:54am
Post #8 of 10
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oh - that didn't cross my mind because
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I think of Legolas as someone who scouted through Mirkwood quite a bit, plus he IS a fearsome fighter and an immortal elf? so I imagined if he were gone for a time, this would not be a new thing.
*Cough* forgot tho that the DRAGON had woken up which makes things a bit different.
*Frown* all the more reason to have kept the Thranduil/Legolas "2 days" scene - well, maybe. I don't know how Thranduil will engage but that time limit COULD have led to a scene of Thranduil becoming more tense as the time passes, and with Legolas not returning, Thranduil decides to ride out - perhaps.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Nov 17 2014, 9:12pm
Post #9 of 10
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We had an interesting discussion on Thranduil's character a while ago..
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Elarie came up with a fantastic point:
Tolkien's description of "Less wise and more dangerous" suits him perfectly, and I thought Lee Pace's portrayal was riveting. Such arrogant, complicated beauty, and the whole concept of goodness without compassion is really interesting.
I replied that:
'Goodness without compassion' is such a complicated but beautiful sentiment. It seems to imply that he takes moral action without heartfelt motivation. He's good because he needs to be, but for no other reason. A Selfish moralism.
Riven-Delve thought it was interesting; a sort of 'empty goodness'.
All in all, I love the complex portrayal here. There is an almost infinite sub-text here to be explored in the last film. Why is he doing all this?
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Nov 18 2014, 11:37am
Post #10 of 10
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For me Thranduil has deep and true motivations,
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although he will not talk about them because they are based on utterly traumatic experiences in his historical background, that he himself hints at by revealing the hidden wound when provoked by Thorin's insults.
From what Tolkien has written, following his father King Oropher to join in the Last Alliance, he has had the direct, dire experience of Sauron and his maleficent Power, and the fear that it could come back is haunting him - which is for me why Thranduil cannot stand listening quietly to the captured Orc who is announcing exactly that. I see his sudden, brutal beheading of him as an irrational attempt to stop what the Orc says from happening, by stopping him from saying anything more.
But of course he cannot explain all that to Legolas, his beloved son, whom he seems to try to protect from all this dark past, in which he Thranduil, his father having been slain, has had to bring back home the remnants of their army, I guess he probably learned that way to become the fierce isolationist we see him to be, trying his best to save at least what he loves most and feels responsible for.
I am sorry that this scene has finally been deleted, in which he was talking so softly to Legolas asking his permission to bring back Tauriel. One could feel his affection for his son and he hinted at the danger he actually feared for both of them: that they be caught in Lake-town when the woken dragon would attack...
Already in last December I tried in several posts to show this other, hidden side of Thranduil which has nothing to do with his apparent empty vanity. I do hope I am proven right in the end...
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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