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incineratexxx
Registered User
Nov 12 2014, 12:44pm
Post #1 of 5
(369 views)
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Dwarven Rune Language
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Hey everyone! I was wondering if anyone could help me translate "The Rightful King" in dwarven runes from The Hobbit. When I use a translator it gives me 3 runes for "The" but when I use the chart it gives me 2 runes for "The" and that's because the chart says a "th" is one rune. Any help would be awesome! Thanks everyone!!!
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Nov 12 2014, 4:35pm
Post #2 of 5
(261 views)
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click Angerthas
Good luck!
It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him.
- JRRT
A dead dragon is not a big problem.
- BG
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Nov 13 2014, 11:51am
Post #3 of 5
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The runes used in The Hobbit (book) as based on the Anglo-Saxon system, thus runes from the real world.
http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/runes-eng.pdf
So if you check the actual Anglo-Saxon runes, you can see that the same figure is used for th as in The Hobbit -- a single rune for this sound, sort of like the letter 'thorn' þ can be used for a th sound (th in a Roman version can represent a voiced sound as in English 'then', or an unvoiced sound as in 'thing', for example)
http://www.acondia.com/...unes/info/hobbit.htm
That said you may want an actual system used by the Dwarves. As they would not use an Anglo-saxon system 'back then', living in a time before Anglo-Saxon even became a language (thus to be represented in runic writing at some point)...
... then the Angerthas Erebor is rather another system (considering Bracegirdle's post) imagined to actually be used by Tolkien's Dwarves, for example...
http://ring-lord.tripod.com/.../angerthaserebor.htm
... and again the runes of The Hobbit are considered to simply 'represent' the real runes, not to actually be a true system used back in ancient Middle-eath.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Nov 13 2014, 12:06pm)
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Cirashala
Valinor
Nov 13 2014, 8:02pm
Post #4 of 5
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so if one is writing fan fiction (sorry if OT)
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which rune system should I use in my story for the Erebor dwarves?
I'm not sure yet if I'm necessarily going to specifically mention the exact system (that depends on how the story goes) but in part of my story I'm considering one of the company teaching Bilbo the basic runes for directions and such so that he can navigate within Erebor (I have a feeling that runes would be etched into the walls and such- kind of like street signs- to help navigate such a large city).
This seems plausible to me since, at this point, Bilbo is pretty much considered a "dwarf friend" (before Arkenstone ordeal), plus since Balin only goes halfway down with him, he's going to need some sort of directions (I actually liked the "maze" setup of stairwells and hallways going down in the movie, rather than a straight shot tunnel, because that strikes me as something the secretive dwarves would do-make it a wee bit harder to find the gold even from the secret door)-and if they're stuck in the mountain for a week or two, surely the dwarves would eventually get tired of having to draw him maps or whatnot all the time just so he doesn't get lost  It's NOT a tiny city!
There isn't a lot of precedent for dwarf language being taught to those outside their own race (Eol, Maeglin, and Elrond being notable exceptions off the top of my head) but since runes do end up in the Red Book of Westmarch, he had to have learned the cirth at least at some point. So I think it plausible that some of the company may have taught him after he'd earned their trust.
I do try to make my story organic to ME- meaning that it's clearly Tolkien's ME and not a facsimile of it within a completely implausible or ridiculous story. So any tips on which runic cirth I should use would be greatly appreciated 
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Nov 13 2014, 9:46pm
Post #5 of 5
(228 views)
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... it's just that if you follow the Anglo-saxon based runes, then you are calling upon a conceit similar to when you say Bilbo was really speaking in Westron, not English.
Or if you use the Mode of Erebor for example, there's some 'Ereborian usage' illustrated in Tolkien's manufactured (burnt and smudged and so on) illustrations for the pages of the Book of Mazarbul. An illustration of a 'true relic' from the time would have both the language of its day written in the writing of the same period, but Tolkien didn't really invent much Westron at all, for example, nor actual Dwarvish.
The explanation Tolkien gave in the third edition of The Hobbit was really a later shot at explaining why the runes are 'English runes'. JRRT appears to have waffled a bit about how he was going to explain his runic systems historically, from an internal perspective...
... but in my opinion he thought it best to land on: the translator decided to employ those 'English runes' in the book, just as he translated Westron into English for the reader.
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