|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
erdildeniz
Rivendell
Nov 1 2014, 2:29am
Post #1 of 18
(1508 views)
Shortcut
|
|
"Tell her we must force his hand."
|
Can't Post
|
|
When Gandalf send Radagast to warn Galadriel, he says that. Who is "he" in here?
|
|
|
Greypilgrim
Bree
Nov 1 2014, 3:34am
Post #3 of 18
(888 views)
Shortcut
|
I immediately thought Gandalf meant Saruman actually. Saruman after all was unconvinced of the necromancer being a legitimate threat and would not agree to an attack. so that's the way I took it- they have to force him into it.
It could be either Sauron or Saruman but I think it would be more interesting if it is meant to be Saruman. This also fits with the idea that when Gandalf says "it's undoubtedly a trap" he is getting himself trapped on purpose because it's the only way Saruman will actually believe is a real threat and help them! After all why would Gandalf the Grey willingly walk into a trap he was aware of?
I like to think it's Saruman being forced to attack but the more obvious choice is Sauron and forcing him to reveal his plan
(This post was edited by Greypilgrim on Nov 1 2014, 3:34am)
|
|
|
mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Nov 1 2014, 4:25am
Post #4 of 18
(837 views)
Shortcut
|
although the apparent meaning would be Sauron:
Gandalf probably knows that Galadriel will get both the apparent meaning and the really intended one!...  both dreadful threats actually, so not much to laugh about  , but Gandalf's subtlety always delights me, hence my ...!
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
|
|
|
adt100
Rohan
Nov 1 2014, 7:53am
Post #5 of 18
(737 views)
Shortcut
|
|
It seemed obvious to be Sauron/Necromancer to me
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
These films aren't really meant to be subtle I don't think, it easy to read too much into such a line.
|
|
|
dormouse
Half-elven
Nov 1 2014, 8:26am
Post #6 of 18
(720 views)
Shortcut
|
In the sense of forcing him to reveal who he really is and what he's up to.
I don't think they can mean Saruman because it's too early for them to have any real suspicions of him. If Gandalf is trying to force Saruman's hand at this stage, going to ask for his help at the start of Fellowship would be idiotic.
Although, thinking about it, I suppose it could be 'force Saruman to take action'.....
(This post was edited by dormouse on Nov 1 2014, 8:28am)
|
|
|
BlackFox
Half-elven
Nov 1 2014, 9:09am
Post #7 of 18
(702 views)
Shortcut
|
Gandalf says: "A spell of concealment lies over this place, which means our enemy is not yet ready to reveal himself. He has not regained his full strength. Radagast, I need you to carry a message to the Lady Galadriel. Tell her we must force his hand." (my emphasis)
|
|
|
Girdle of Melian
Lorien
Nov 1 2014, 10:48am
Post #8 of 18
(675 views)
Shortcut
|
|
But why ask for Lady Galadriel....
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Saruman is the head of the White Council....
Would have Galadriel acted even without the blessing of Saruman (as far as the White Council is concerned)?
|
|
|
Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Nov 1 2014, 10:51am
Post #9 of 18
(664 views)
Shortcut
|
|
That's the nice thing about lines!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
We don't need to have only one interpretation.
|
|
|
BlackFox
Half-elven
Nov 1 2014, 11:22am
Post #10 of 18
(660 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Gandalf surely wants to force the White Council (including Saruman) into taking action against the Necromancer by walking into an apparant trap, but...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
... I maintain my stance that the "he" refers to Sauron here (the answer the OP was looking for). Were it to stand for Saruman, then, I'm sure, the line would go "we must force Saruman's hand", because Gandalf had just referred to the Necromancer as "he" ("He has not regained his full strength.") and having him use the same pronoun with another person in mind in the next sentence would just create unnecessary confusion.
|
|
|
Old Pilgrim
Rivendell
Nov 1 2014, 11:26am
Post #11 of 18
(639 views)
Shortcut
|
Lothlorien isn't so far from Dol Guldur and unless Radagast can teleport himself he would have much longer way traveling to Isengard (if Saruman is there) then to Lady Galadriel and time is of the essence.
The other reason could be his previous conversation with Galadriel where she told him he can call for her if necessary arise. I doubt she would act without Saruman's blessings but with Gandalf beeing captured and Sauron's armies revealed it shouldn't be that hard to convince him to take action.
|
|
|
mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Nov 1 2014, 12:20pm
Post #12 of 18
(609 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Oh, I didn't take his previous words into consideration...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
If theyares what you say they are, then you're right indeed, this second 'he' refers also to Sauron!
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
|
|
|
BlackFox
Half-elven
Nov 1 2014, 12:48pm
Post #13 of 18
(590 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Yes, on a purely textual level there is little doubt of whom Gandalf speaks
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
But I can see how the reasons behind Gandalf's actions (that is (a) to force the Necromancer to reveal himself and (b) to have the White Council confront him) may cause some confusion here.
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Nov 1 2014, 2:48pm
Post #14 of 18
(545 views)
Shortcut
|
Saruman is the head of the White Council....
Would have Galadriel acted even without the blessing of Saruman (as far as the White Council is concerned)?
Gandalf knows that Saruman has been against taking action against Dol Guldur. That is why he wants Radagast to approach Lady Galadriel initially. She needs to apply pressure on Saruman to convince him to comply.
Knowing Gandalf's full statement gives the context to the individual line. It is Sauron's hand that needs to be forced. Without the context, he could indeed be speaking of Saruman, who must be convinced to act.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
|
|
|
HiddenSpring
Lorien
Nov 1 2014, 3:52pm
Post #15 of 18
(510 views)
Shortcut
|
Galadriel seems to have a healthy disregard for authority since her early days. She gave the finger to the Valar (initially), I'm sure she'd give it to Saruman if he tried to convince her not to go help Gandalf.
(This post was edited by HiddenSpring on Nov 1 2014, 3:53pm)
|
|
|
Greypilgrim
Bree
Nov 1 2014, 4:43pm
Post #16 of 18
(483 views)
Shortcut
|
after all it was Galadriel's idea to form the white council and against her wishes that Saruman should be it's leader. She and the other elf-lords wanted Gandalf, but he declined.
(This post was edited by Greypilgrim on Nov 1 2014, 4:43pm)
|
|
|
dubulous
Rohan
Nov 1 2014, 4:47pm
Post #17 of 18
(502 views)
Shortcut
|
Galadriel is the only one who has actually offered to help, so of course he would send for her. She's the one he can actually count on coming.
|
|
|
KingTurgon
Rohan
Nov 2 2014, 5:33pm
Post #18 of 18
(400 views)
Shortcut
|
thought Saruman - Gandalf wants he and Galadriel to force Saruman to attack Dol Guldur because they he is essential to victory. If it was just the two of them that was needed I'm sure they would have cleaned the fortress out already.
He could have meant Sauron as well though. Gandalf goes in and gets captured on purpose, the WC comes and rescues him, Sauron is forced to reveal himself during the fight or his escape.
|
|
|
|
|
