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Army of Ringwraiths

emre43
Rohan

Oct 26 2014, 10:47am

Post #1 of 11 (732 views)
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Army of Ringwraiths Can't Post

When Frodo is stabbed by the Witch King at Weathertop it was said that if not treated he would become a Ringwraith. My question is, why did the Ringwraiths not go round stabbing random individuals with a Morgul Blade in order to build an army of wraiths?


CuriousG
Half-elven


Oct 26 2014, 1:48pm

Post #2 of 11 (538 views)
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More like army of shadows [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe Gandalf tells Frodo he would become a wraith, but a very weak one, not an equal to the Nazgul. Then as a wraith, he (or anyone else) would have trouble seeing the living, making them not that great in combat if they're always sniffing for their opponents.


HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Oct 26 2014, 9:31pm

Post #3 of 11 (500 views)
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They wanted him alive as well... [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe the Nazgul wanted Frodo alive. Most of their other enemies, they'd likely just kill. But they wanted to bring Baggins back to Barad-dur. They probably would not have killed the other Hobbits, either.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Oct 27 2014, 4:27pm

Post #4 of 11 (483 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

It sounds similar to a question I asked, as to why the RW's don't go about invisibly haunting the leaders of the Free Peoples, causing paranoia and madness.

I think the answer lies in the fact that the RW's were not invincible. If they had gone around building an army of ghosts (Less powerful spirits with questionable military usefulness) then eventually someone would unite them all against the threat and people would sit down and figure out their weakness and kill them. It would have the opposite effect than they desired, by making their enemies stronger. If you do a magic trick once too many times, someone will figure it out.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


emre43
Rohan

Oct 27 2014, 7:30pm

Post #5 of 11 (473 views)
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It then, of course, [In reply to] Can't Post

Begs the question. How did Gandalf know that Frodo would be turned into a wraith by the Morgul blade if nobody had been stabbed by one before Crazy


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Oct 27 2014, 11:51pm

Post #6 of 11 (442 views)
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Hmm, good question [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe he read something in archives at Minas Tirith?

He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has a broken thing.
- BG


Plurmo
Rohan

Oct 28 2014, 6:19am

Post #7 of 11 (441 views)
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The Wraith World seems to be immaterial (oh damn!) [In reply to] Can't Post

to those who want to enslave free peoples of flesh and blood and build over them an empire. Sauron is not Melkor. He uses different methods and has different objectives. Perhaps you're following a melkorian reasoning.

I think the use of Morgul knives to create wraiths is unproductive. One wraith per knife would meant a lot of steel to carry around and a lot of sorcery work. And they are probably not necessary, anyway, because wraithmaking probably depends heavily on the strength of the subject's spirit, or in this case, perhaps only the stains and weaknesses are in fact relevant. I expect Sauron would be able to turn a weakened person into a wraith by incantation alone, or maybe a song of power or a sorcerous sneeze. The Rings too are non trivial examples of wraithmaking devices. They were meant for the overpowering of strong personalities in distant places. The Morgul knife, in particular, carries the written incantation, so its purpose is somewhat clear for a learned loremaster.

That specific Morgul knife used on Frodo seems to be a sorcery of great power, customized for the subduing of someone who might be in possession of the very One Ring. Certainly it was meant to work on someone with great strength of mind and body. A veritable ringbearer. Why expect anything less? That the Morgul Lord who made it didn't understand hobbits and their exceptional resilience was the consequence of Sauron himself having overlooked them. That the Powers chose hobbits to bear the Ring is an indication that they would be stronger than what the Enemy would presume.

Even then, in my personal interpretation there is a greater reason why not trivialize the cruel attempt to capture Frodo by means of his spirit. The Morgul Lord seems to know his sorcery, or at least in this particular case he seems to be following a deep insight on the magical nature of Arda, for there is another instance where an inward working splinter is being used to recover a Ring from an usurping carrier: that's the way the Ring of Morgoth is being taken from him in an ages long struggle.

There is an important metaphor which says that Arda itself, the Ring of Morgoth, his magical heart, was created on the tip of a needle by a very crafty Eru. And there is a possibility that this needle's tip was inadvertently made by Melkor himself who used to wander in the Void and have thoughts of his own. Think about Turin's sword, whence it came. What was it made from.

Consider then, that instead of a method for replicating wraiths, what you are being given the opportunity to witness in this tragic part of Frodo's tale is one important movement in the Music of the Ainur where Melkor performs a mockery of Eru's original composition, without knowing that it was meant to shape the way and the agony of his very own end.

Literally it was meant to be a knife in the Dark.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Oct 28 2014, 11:40pm

Post #8 of 11 (408 views)
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Because he was one of the Wise, and they know everything. [In reply to] Can't Post

Just kidding. You bring up a great question.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Oct 28 2014, 11:49pm

Post #9 of 11 (429 views)
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On 2nd thought: maybe Glorfindel told Gandalf [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe the knife's writings said things like, "I will turn you into a wraith."

Here's the Glorfindel passage:


Quote
Briefly Strider told of the attack on their camp under Weathertop, and of the deadly knife. He drew out the hilt, which he had kept, and handed it to the Elf. Glorfindel shuddered as he took it, but he looked intently at it.

‘There are evil things written on this hilt,’ he said; ‘though maybe your eyes cannot see them. Keep it, Aragorn, till we reach the house of Elrond! But be wary, and handle it as little as you may! Alas ! the wounds of this weapon are beyond my skill to heal. I will do what I can – but all the more do I urge you now to go on without rest.’



Tolkien, J.R.R. (2012-02-15). The Lord of the Rings: One Volume (p. 210). Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.


emre43
Rohan

Oct 29 2014, 11:29am

Post #10 of 11 (476 views)
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Good answer [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile I like being able to delve into Tolkien's works and being able to find answers to the questions. Somehow gives even greater depth to that which has already been provided.


Beleg Strongbow Cuthalion
Bree


Apr 8 2015, 8:12pm

Post #11 of 11 (249 views)
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Ringwraiths [In reply to] Can't Post

The Ringwraiths were the nine Kings of Men, as everyone knows, and Tolkien also says that they were very proud. So, since they were so proud, couldn't they have retained their former disposition and decided that nine was enough since they just "couldn't be killed"?

~"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” ― Gandalf the Grey~


 
 

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