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Balrog of Moria!

leonmuse
Rivendell


Oct 26 2014, 4:19am

Post #1 of 12 (893 views)
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Balrog of Moria! Can't Post

Hello folks!

Here's a quick question that bugs many a JRR Tolkien fan, as it hasn't been clarified properly:

Is the Balrog of Moria a creature with a will of its own, is it still following Morgoth, is it a servant of Sauron (hard to believe) or is it an indirect ally of Sauron?

I ask this, because I don't really know if Morgoth is still capable of ruling over the Balrog, being imprisoned in the Void/darkness.


__________________________________________________________
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
But, sad or merry, I must leave it now. Farewell."


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Oct 26 2014, 8:47am

Post #2 of 12 (678 views)
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morgoth was executed and his spirit removed to the void [In reply to] Can't Post

so i doubt he would have any influence within the physical world beyond that portion of his nature that he lost through dispersement into the physical material of arda. The balrog was independant of any others at the time of the third age and JRRT even commented that there is no reason that powerful evil beings could not be independant of each other.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Oct 26 2014, 2:01pm

Post #3 of 12 (653 views)
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Free from Morgoth [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think anyone is taking orders from Morgoth directly after he's been thrust out into the Void, so I'd say the Balrog is acting on its own. I'm never clear on its exact relationship with Sauron. I wouldn't say servant, so ally seems closer.

Someone at Moria seemed to coordinate the attacks on Frodo (the Watcher singled him out, and the big orc spearmen also singled him out, plus they went to great lengths digging trenches of fire to prevent their escape). The Balrog seemed to be the most powerful being at Moria and most likely to be in charge, so it appears to have been directing the actions which would have benefited Sauron.

If the Balrog were truly a servant, it seems Sauron would have summoned him to Mordor or Dol Guldur to help lead his armies, but that never happened.


squire
Half-elven


Oct 26 2014, 2:18pm

Post #4 of 12 (641 views)
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I go along with the 'independent but really evil' idea [In reply to] Can't Post

With the publication of his notes and drafts, we find that Tolkien displayed a distressing tendency in his post-publication years to tidy up the hierarchies of evil and power in The Lord of the Rings. Examples include his suggestion in Unfinished Tales that the Nazgul had somehow 'awakened' the barrow-wights as additional security against the passage of the ring-bearer. Then on a larger scale there is the unfortunate term 'Maia', retrofitted into the Silmarillion, which has inspired fans to attempt countless calculations of game-like power levels between beings whose powers as originally written were uniquely literary and incomparable. But as pointed out already, Tolkien originally preferred not to be bound by strict categories, and enjoyed creating things, both evil and good, that did not all play in the same gamebook.

As for the balrog of Moria, I think its actions are incomprehensible if they are read as purposeful. Is it allied with the orcs? Does it direct them, or do they direct it? Has it been 'asleep' since the destruction of the Dwarf-colony? If not, what has it been doing with itself? If so, then was it woken by the arrival of orcs from Sauron a few days before (later recounted by the Lorien-elves), or was it woken when Pippin dropped the stone in the well?

My opinion is that it was woken by the orcs, who treated it like a supremely powerful and utterly insane killing machine that could be pointed against the same enemies they had been directed to intercept. But I think the balrog itself sensed the presence of both the Ring and Gandalf and was following its own Morgoth-taught instincts when it rushed forward to capture and destroy both entities without regard for the orcs or Sauron's interests.

Put more bluntly and from an out-of-story perspective, the balrog was there to destroy Gandalf and for no other reason or outside motive.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Oct 26 2014, 9:42pm

Post #5 of 12 (663 views)
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Sauron, Balrog and chain of command [In reply to] Can't Post

If we postulate (as in other posts on here) that the number of Balrogs were few, and they are of the order of the Maiar, and they served Morgoth before Time and through his downfall in the First Age, they would have directly known Sauron since he was Morgoth's chief lieutenant.


Given all that, Sauron was directly under Morgoth in the "evil hierarchy" and therefore, I would assume the Balrogs would report directly to him. This chain-of-command might have been broken after the first War of Wrath, but this seems to be the order during the First Age.


Sauron might have viewed the Balrog as an indirect ally, similar to what Smaug could have been. They did not have to serve him directly, but their interests were aligned with Sauron's. I would wager that if Sauron really wanted to call rank, he could have forced the Balrog to serve him. But why do that when the Balrog is serving you already and you don't have to get into chest-beating contest over "who's the man"....


Cari
Bree

Oct 27 2014, 1:19pm

Post #6 of 12 (612 views)
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Without the Ring [In reply to] Can't Post

Would it be possible for Sauron to call the Balrog to serve him without the ring? He did put most of his power into it and was much weaker without it.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Oct 27 2014, 4:07pm

Post #7 of 12 (609 views)
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Well, there is an authorial note in Letters... [In reply to] Can't Post

In one of his Letters, Tolkien explicitly states that in creating the Ring, Sauron 'was not dimished'. Rather that he posessed all of his power, but that power he had put into the Ring existed 'in rapport' with himself. Without it, it took longer to reincarnate after losing his physical body, but he would surely have been able to do so eventually.

Sauron-possession of Ring= Sauron
Sauron+possession of Ring= Über-Sauron

Now it may not make Arithmetical sense that possession only adds, but never subtracts, but we must accept it. This may balance the view a little.

Sauron+ existence of the Ring= Sauron
Sauron- existence of the Ring = little Sauron unable to take form in Arda.

The Ring was only a tool, but a vital one as it harbored part if Sauron himself, and once destroyed, so was its power, and it was lost to Sauron forever.

But to achieve this {Creation of the Ring} he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power...pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'.
-Letter 131
So what I take from this is that the Ring was an amplifier of power, but in order to make it, he had to externalise a vital part of himself and expose it to harm outside his body. No doubt he never fathomed that it would be stolen off his finger-- as one of the most powerful forces in Middle-Earth--, but such was the case. As Gandalf said, possession of the Ring would have given him a quicker victory, but he was still powerful enough to continue his reincarnation and direct his armies to a victory of might.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Cari
Bree

Oct 27 2014, 7:58pm

Post #8 of 12 (573 views)
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Thanks for the information ^.^ [In reply to] Can't Post

I had thought that the ring was more akin to Morgoth putting his power into the world, thus making him weaker. It is interesting that the Ring acts as an amplifier of power though.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Oct 28 2014, 11:33pm

Post #9 of 12 (559 views)
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Chain of command [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't dispute your reasoning, which is sound as usual. But I suddenly thought of Shelob, within Sauron's realm, who was a sort of independent pet and not a docile servant.

Granted the balrogs don't seem to have the wild streak in them that Ungoliant and her brood did. It appears that balrogs always did what they were told, unlike Ungoliant. Yet since Sauron never seemed to feel the need to personally confront and subdue Shelob to his will and stop eating his orcs, nor did he conscript her into an army, did he feel the need to make the Moria balrog docile? If we did power rankings, I don't doubt Sauron would win the duel, but maybe winning would damage or destroy the balrog in the process? And maybe, despite his lust for dominating everyone, he made an exception for the balrog like he did for Shelob and didn't mind the free agent out west.


HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Oct 29 2014, 1:37am

Post #10 of 12 (558 views)
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Shelob as a "pet"... [In reply to] Can't Post

Sauron was willing to sacrifice a few Orcs to have Shelob as a guardian of his realm. Even if she wasn't doing so at his behest, her presence in the caves that lead to Cirth Ungol was enough to deter most enemies. So Sauron tolerated her, and if I recall correctly, he actually since Orcs and other prisoners to Shelob for her delight...


BallyWhooo
Bree

Oct 29 2014, 2:29am

Post #11 of 12 (555 views)
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My Precious [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe Gandalf makes a comment somewhere along the way that the Ring draws evil to Itself. So, I always assumed that as Frodo toils along the route, the reason why there is constant episodic danger is because the Ring has a will of Its own and is drawing evil closer, even if the evil can't understand what it is that is attracting it. That's why I think the Watcher attacked Frodo first, and the great Troll singles him for skewering. Who knows what might have happened had the balrog gotten close much closer to Frodo. Gandalf makes the only reasonable decision by pushing the rest of the company to cross the bridge and then putting just himself between the Ring and the balrog. Though Moria always has seemed to me to be this very isolated environment. The orcs there were surely aware of The Golden Wood, but the Ring's will may very well have been powerful enough to be the catalyst that would cause them to dare to tread within it.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Nov 2 2014, 12:34am

Post #12 of 12 (588 views)
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Well, I always thought that Sauron and Morgoth were always just a few over-powered pretty boys [In reply to] Can't Post

They'd take credit for anything!

'Oh, did you hear that Elrond stubbed his toe yesterday? Totally me!!!' Laugh

So perhaps Sauron let Shelob sit there, and allowed her to do as she would so that he could claim her allegiance. As long as she was there, he could say she was his watchdog.

On the more practical side, I do recall that RotK said that she was a more secure guard than anything else, and he thought that nothing could pass her by. I think it might also be the same concerning the Balrog in Moria. If they were doing such an excellent job, replacing them would place the onus of improvement and maintenance as a tax on himself or his resources.

In short: If it ain't broke, don't fix it! Sly

Rambling thoughts as I wander in for a bit......

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?

 
 

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