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Guert
Rivendell
Oct 26 2014, 3:08am
Post #1 of 33
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The Power of the Three
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This caption in the Elrond photo releases yesterday... The power of the Three...
The power of the three other members of the White Council aka Galadriel, Elrond and Saruman ?
Or maybe the power of the Three Rings... Aka the rings of Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf, leaving Saruman out of this fight...
Obviously the power of the three will defeat Sauron and the Witchking in Dol Guldur. But, which of the above ? Apart from the banner, we haven't seen anything of Saruman yet, and he is also excluded of the Dol Guldur lego set.
I'm hoping Saruman will stay in this battle... At the pace these movies seems to be changing, it makes me wonder...
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dubulous
Rohan
Oct 26 2014, 7:57am
Post #2 of 33
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I think it would make sense to mean the Three Rings, ie Galadriel, Elrond, and Gandalf. If it meant the White Council, it should be the power of the four, because I don't see why they should leave Gandalf out of the equation even if he may be injured. There just isn't the same kind of natural connection between Galadriel, Elrond, and Saruman as there is between the three ringbearers.
That doesn't have to mean Saruman doesn't have his part to play. Maybe the power of the Three will be used against the power of the Nine, and then Saruman will show up and they'll all drive Sauron away together?
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Oct 26 2014, 10:41am
Post #3 of 33
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Is Radagast a member of the White Council?
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If so, it would be power of the four others.
Either way, Radagast will be there too. We know from Gandalf's staff
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Oct 26 2014, 11:02am
Post #4 of 33
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It isn't specified in the books or the films.
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He might be a member of the WC, he might not. The only definite, named members were Saruman, Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel and Cirdan.
(This post was edited by Spriggan on Oct 26 2014, 11:05am)
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Earl
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Oct 26 2014, 1:56pm
Post #5 of 33
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Sauron guessed, but did not know for sure, where the Three were bestowed. He guessed correctly concerning Elrond and Galadriel though.
So it might seem strange if the Three were used to drive him out, as he would know about their bearers then. Or perhaps if won't be a problem because in the LOTR films it's ambiguous about whether Sauron knows, or even cares, about the Three (the only hint we get of this notion of the Three being hidden is from Galadriel's Song).
If they do use the Three, it could be the point when Saruman learns Gandalf has a ring of power, and could make for an interesting reaction.
The Hobbit Soundtracks - Being an online archive of information concerning Howard Shore's score for The Hobbit films.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Oct 26 2014, 3:02pm
Post #6 of 33
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The Three were supposed to have been kept hidden from Sauron, so it would be very strange if Jackson decided to have their bearers use them to fight the very being they were supposed to be hidden from. I'm sure those pesky book details wouldn't stop Jackson from doing something like that, though.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Oct 26 2014, 3:26pm
Post #7 of 33
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What difference would it make?
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I can't think of any impact that would be different between Sauron knowing who had the three and merely suspecting, as he had done for thousands of years. I can't think of anything that would be different in either the books or the films.
As it happens, I think it is unlikely that anything much will be made of the three, as most viewers won't know anything about them, but that's by the by.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Oct 26 2014, 3:48pm
Post #8 of 33
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...he might have made a much stronger effort to try and attack Lothlorien and/or Rivendell over the millenia. Hell, this could have been accomplished way back in the 2nd Age if Sauron knew for certain who the bearers were and where they were hiding. The fact that he didn't know is not a superfluous detail as you seem to be suggesting.
In any case, it's a detail of the story that doesn't need to be changed for the films. But it would not surprise me in the least if it were.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Oct 26 2014, 3:58pm
Post #9 of 33
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Well he guessed Galadriel and Gil Galad straight away
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And seemingly acted on it as forcefully as he could!
But I meant in the years between TH and LOTR, which is the time period that would be affected. I couldn't think of anything obvious.
I'm never sure about things "needing" to be changed and, as I say I suspect it won't be strongly featured in the event, but if it has no consequence then I would say I can't see why it should be of concern.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 26 2014, 4:21pm
Post #10 of 33
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Radagast and the White Council
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Radagast was presumably considered to be a member of the White Council; however, he seldom involved himself in Council business. We do know that Radagast has to make at least one more appearance in the Hobbit films.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Oct 26 2014, 4:30pm
Post #11 of 33
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...was at the absolute height of his power during the 2nd Age, so if he did know for certain he should have been able to do much more than he did. I can tell you this though, Gil-galad, Galadriel, Cirdan, Elrond, and Gandalf would not have been foolish enough to reveal the Three right to his face! Besides, the Three are not used for purposes of combat.
And no, it might not have any bearing as far as the way Jackson is telling the story, but it's the way Jackson is telling the story I mostly have a problem with. If it doesn't need to be changed, then why make the change? Just because it has no consequence doesn't mean that it was at all necessary or wouldn't have worked just fine if done the way the author wrote it.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Oct 26 2014, 4:43pm
Post #12 of 33
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I can't think that it would have had any bearing in the book, as it goes.
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But if the worry is simply that no detail should be different, no matter if it has no consequence then I suppose we ought to be scouring the texts to see which finger the three were worn on .......
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Oct 26 2014, 5:05pm
Post #13 of 33
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If a change/addition serves a purpose within the overarching story...
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...but doesn't affect the outcome and isn't a complete contradiction, then I see no problem. But why contradict the source if it doesn't absolutely need to be contradicted? Using the Three for purposes of battle is not something that is necessary. Nor was, I would argue, the idea of Nazgul tombs. Something could have been easily done that would have fit within the established lore that would establish the Nazgul (who are now referred to as "the dead", when in the LotR films they were "neither living nor dead").
And come on Spriggan, your comparing the fingers each Ring was worn on to the actual purpose of the Rings within the lore is a bad comparison.
(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Oct 26 2014, 5:17pm)
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NecromancerRising
Gondor
Oct 26 2014, 5:15pm
Post #14 of 33
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Now,i would like you to propose some alternative ways of how you would depict the White Council driving out of Dol Guldur a powerful sorcerer like Sauron, since Tolkien doesn't give us any clue about that matter.
"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Oct 26 2014, 5:19pm
Post #15 of 33
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Are you saying it cannot be done without the aid of the Three Rings?
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Because it WAS done that way in the books, being that Sauron fled and the major factor in this was Saruman, who did not have possession of a Ring of Power. Tolkien absolutely gave us a clue.
(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Oct 26 2014, 5:19pm)
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NecromancerRising
Gondor
Oct 26 2014, 5:23pm
Post #16 of 33
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I am not saying anything like this.I believe the aid of the Three Rings is not necessary.I am genuinely asking you how would you depict that sequence.Your ideas,your thoughts.And to make it even more concrete,how would you show Saruman mostly and the other members achieving this goal.
P.S. I am aware of the fact that Saruman was a major factor but i insist on my opinion that Tolkien did not give us a clue about HOW he succeeded in it.
"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Oct 26 2014, 5:30pm
Post #17 of 33
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We'll hold on that's two options
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A is if it serves a purpose and doesn't affect the outcome then it's fine
B is only make change if absolutely necessary, even if it doesn't make any difference.
Which it is, of course impacts on the rest, Nazgul included.
We also seem to have moved away from Sauron seeing the rings as an issue to using the rings in battle as weapons, which is not anything I have heard anything about. Where does this idea come from?
As to my original comparison, I can't see that Sauron seeing the rings at this point makes any more difference than which finger they are on.
But then I should confess that any approach involving terms like established lore, legendarium, canon etc is very alien to me. I usually just think of it as a story in a book.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Oct 26 2014, 5:36pm
Post #18 of 33
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I would have the Elves, Radagast and Gandalf...
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...being beaten back by Sauron and his minions pretty severely until Saruman arrives to turn the tide and put the fear of wrath into Sauron and his minions. Sauron flees to Mordor. No Elven Rings needed.
Of course, in this version of the story we are not even certain that Mordor has been prepared for Sauron's arrival like it is supposed to be, since the Nine have apparently been inactive since the fall of the realm of Angmar (for close to 1000 years).
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NecromancerRising
Gondor
Oct 26 2014, 5:42pm
Post #19 of 33
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Harsh language?Magic skills?Galadriel also beaten back at start?Because your description so far,matches a bit with the banner scene apart from the Elve's appearance.
"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Oct 26 2014, 5:45pm
Post #20 of 33
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...we are having is based on the idea that the Three might be used in Dol Guldur to combat Sauron. I haven't moved away from anything DavidDevant, I mean Spriggan.
True about the Nazgul tombs plot-line affecting other things, however it is a massive contradiction that could have been avoided had the writers been more concerned with staying within the bounds of Tolkien's lore (which they claim to be great adherents of).
Yep, stories in a book is all they are. However, the blueprint was pretty much already laid out for those adapting these books, however they consciously chose to ignore that blueprint and make up something entirely different. If you like it, great. But I don't.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Oct 26 2014, 5:51pm
Post #21 of 33
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And if that turns out to be the case...
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...then I'll be happier than a pig in slop. DG, and Saruman in particular, are things I am very much looking forward to in the next movie, however it could easily go awry if Jackson gets too crazy with it. And Jackson has a habit of going too far quite often, in my honest opinion.
Anyway, this particular discussion is about the Three Elven Rings being used to fight Sauron. That is why there's an emphasis on talk about the Three. And you seem to agree with my assertion that using the Elven Rings to fight Sauron is completely unnecessary.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Oct 26 2014, 5:53pm
Post #22 of 33
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I'm afraid this is getting increasingly confusing.
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Am I not right that your initial issue was Sauron knowing about the owners of the rings and then your issue became them being used as weapons, against their nature?
That seems like moving from one issue to another, but perhaps I am as confused by that as I am by other elements of your post.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Oct 26 2014, 6:02pm
Post #23 of 33
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The Three were supposed to have been kept hidden from Sauron, so it would be very strange if Jackson decided to have their bearers use them to fight the very being they were supposed to be hidden from. I'm sure those pesky book details wouldn't stop Jackson from doing something like that, though.
Same issue. You're either forgetful or you're simply cherry-picking.
(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Oct 26 2014, 6:03pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Oct 26 2014, 6:10pm
Post #24 of 33
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Being focused on the issue of remaining hidden, as did the subsequent posts, hence my responses and the conversation on the subject.
The question of the nature of the rings and their uses seems to me to be a different one.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Oct 26 2014, 6:22pm
Post #25 of 33
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The question of the nature of the Three Rings...
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...supports my stance that the Rings would not, and literally could not, be used as weapons against Sauron. It's part of my argument, and does nothing to divert attention away from the main topic. Accusing me of something doesn't make it so.
(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Oct 26 2014, 6:24pm)
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