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MTT Gandalf
Bree
Oct 25 2014, 12:39pm
Post #1 of 18
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What was the original Thrain-subplot, and why was it changed?
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I'm thinking about the Thrain-subplot in the movies. We know, that it was a part of the films from the beginning, and that during the principal filming-period there was a fight scene filmed between Gandalf and Thrain, because we saw it in the very first trailer. It was used later in the extended edition of The Desolation of Smaug.
But we kow, that there were later reshoots with a different Thrain-actor (Sir Antony Sher). But why? Why was the original subplot changed and what was the change? I think, they not just extended it for the three-movie decision, they rewrote the ending of it, because the actor-change was after the fight scene, and Sher continued and ended the story. What could be the original ending of this subplot, before the reshoots?
(This post was edited by MTT Gandalf on Oct 25 2014, 12:40pm)
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Oct 25 2014, 12:43pm
Post #2 of 18
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But maybe it was more like the book and the Thrain stuff was going to happen as a flash-back in AUJ?
If so we would have seen Gandalf in a flashback going to Dol Guldur ( some time after the Battle of Moria, before he meets Thorin). He finds Thrain there and Thrain gives him the map and key to give to Thorin, shortly before dying.
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MTT Gandalf
Bree
Oct 25 2014, 12:49pm
Post #3 of 18
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But Glamdring was there in the hands of Gandalf, so the fight scene coundn't be a flashback.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Oct 25 2014, 1:07pm
Post #4 of 18
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One would imagine it was just fleshed out somewhat.
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With a more famous actor and some more dialogue. I would assume the basic events were the same as we saw here.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Oct 25 2014, 1:12pm
Post #5 of 18
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I think the idea it was planned as a flashback is unlikely.
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Not just because of the Glamdring issue but also because that would mean the impact of Gandalf discovering Sauron's identity would lose urgency and the sense that it is part of the current story. It would make any of Gandalf's prior activities around his suspicions redundant (Radagast, high fells, WC etc).
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Aitieuriskon
Lorien
Oct 25 2014, 4:19pm
Post #6 of 18
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We don't know for sure that he did have Glamdring in the scene as it was originally shot. Most of the original scenes from the fight involve a lot of staff-twirling. I think Glamdring was only used later, when they expanded the scene and used Sher for Thrain.
"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Oct 25 2014, 8:41pm
Post #7 of 18
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You can see glamdring in the AUJ trailers. The scene was originally going to be placed where the high fells takes place in DOS when TH was going to be two films.
The flames of war are upon you..
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irasel
The Shire
Oct 26 2014, 1:47pm
Post #8 of 18
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How do you know Thrain was originally meant to appear in the High Fells? //
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Oct 26 2014, 2:34pm
Post #9 of 18
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OP meant that when Gandalf leaves the company at Mirkwood, he doesn't go to the High Fells, he goes straight to Dol Guldur and Thrain's scene would have taken place while the dwarves were in Thranduil's halls.
The reason we can assume this is because the High Fells scene originally took place while the dwarves were in the stone giant battle in AUJ. This was removed for whatever reason and Gandalf's absence isn't really explained beyond being at Rivendell.
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Oct 26 2014, 2:38pm
Post #10 of 18
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Actually, Glamdring isn't in those shots...
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In the first Hobbit trailer he's only holding his staff. The trailer much closer to release shows him holding Glamdring. But it's difficult to say whether it was ever going to be a flashback or not.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Oct 26 2014, 2:59pm
Post #11 of 18
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Even at the time of the first trailer
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Whilst we can't see Glamdring in the brief shot with Thrain we can see two shots of Gandalf with Glamdring and in DG alone.
So if there was a Thrain visit in flashback then Gandalf would also have needed a reason to return to DG after Beorn on his own for some reason?
We also see the High Fells in the same trailer so it would seem that Gandalf could not have discovered Sauron in flashback or this would be a purposeless visit.
So the proposed flashback could, even in theory, only be Gandalf finding Thrain but not discovering anything more. So what then would happen to Thrain?
It would also mean that Radgast's scenes, the WC, the High Fells, the DOS prologue and the Thrain scenes themselves would all be completely different from what was planned at the time.
This is conceivably possible but I can't see any evidence in the other pan of the balance to suggest this was ever planned or shot in flashback.
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Oct 26 2014, 3:14pm
Post #12 of 18
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It could have been like the book...
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So in the flashback Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur (knowing about the necromancer), he discovers Thrain, who has lost his memory. Thrain gives Gandalf the map and key and then dies - Gandalf learns nothing more, but notices the Ring has been taken. - He suspects, but doesn't assume Sauron.
Gandalf, armed with map and key, seeks Thrain's son (not knowing his name). Eventually meets Thorin and starts the adventure.
He would then go to the High Fells after the Rivendell scene to seek out the mystery involving Thrain's ring and the Morgul Blade.
Then, after the Beorn stuff he leaves the company for Dol Guldur and searches the place (possibly alone or with others - but wielding Glamdring) and it probably played out as it does in DoS TE, but with Bolg rather than Azog.
This is where he would have discovered Sauron - his suspicions are confirmed and the White Council battle would've followed.
It doesn't really change all that much.
(This post was edited by QuackingTroll on Oct 26 2014, 3:18pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Oct 26 2014, 3:44pm
Post #13 of 18
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As I say, with a lot of changes it is conceivable
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But the first question is what suggests to us that this may have happened. Does anything point us in this direction?
To the detail, we would need to think of a few answers:
Why does Gandalf go to DG in the flashback and how is this explained to the audience?
Having found Thrain, why is he there? Is there some reason where he is not a prisoner or if not then-
Does Gandalf encounter the Necromancer (who does not reveal himself to be Sauron)? If so, then this is a rather less perceptive Gandalf than in the book or the current film version, but that is possible. Why would Gandalf, meeting him in the flesh and knowing he has stolen a Ring or Power not figure it out?
Why would the Necromancer not reveal himself to Gandalf in flashback but choose to do so in the second visit?
What happens to Thrain - does he live, is he killed by the Necromancer or does he happen to die at that moment?
Why does Gandalf keep this from Thorin? Or is the DOS prologue and all references to Thrain rewritten? When would Gandalf tell him?
Having seen Gandalf explore DG in flashback and meet the Necromancer wouldn't all of Radagast's scenes be different? After all, why tell Gandalf, and the audience, the same thing twice?
The White Council scene would have to be almost completely re-written - how would it play out now that Gandalf himself has met the Necromancer, rather than the unreliable and not present Radagast?
What would be the purpose or advantage of the scene being in flashback?
A few to get us going!
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Oct 26 2014, 4:53pm
Post #14 of 18
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Originally Gandalf goes to the high fells when the company sets out for the misty mountains. When Gandalf leaves the company at Mirkwood he goes to dol guldur/Thrain.
The flames of war are upon you..
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MTT Gandalf
Bree
Oct 26 2014, 5:34pm
Post #15 of 18
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1. The Thrain-scene was a part of the first film of the movie-duology, because we saw it in the first AUJ-trailer. This was changed, when the two films became three.
2. The first film was shooted in the principal shooting periode + after that a few weeks pickups with the new "3-film-Azog"-subplot.
3. All of the Thrain-scenes (except the Gandalf-Thrain fighting, which was in the AUJ-trailer), what we see in DOS EE, are new pickup-scenes from the next year, shooted with Anthony Sher.
These are the facts.
And what is my infeence from it?
This: they shoot something during the principal filming in Dol Guldur with Thrain (not just the fight, which was a stunt-double performance I think), because they wanted to place it in the first film.
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Oct 26 2014, 6:47pm
Post #16 of 18
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Originally there was a flashback scene at the unexpected party where Gandalf finds Thrain but the storyline was rewritten.
The flames of war are upon you..
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irasel
The Shire
Oct 26 2014, 11:35pm
Post #17 of 18
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Obviously I did read your post, I just misunderstood it completely :) //
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MTT Gandalf
Bree
Oct 27 2014, 1:41pm
Post #18 of 18
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See the arguments of Spriggan - The flashback-version does not make sense in this situation.
And it would be too long for a flashback-scene.
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