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Arannir
Valinor
Oct 24 2014, 11:53am
Post #1 of 43
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The Battle's Climax - SPOILER
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This came up in other threads and I thought we could discuss it separately.
Personally I believe that the tragic climax of the Battle of the Five Armies and the climax of Thorin's character arc will only work 100% if he does not get some hero-scene in the end in which he kills Azog - and basically succeeds in revanging his people and grandfather.
The only hero-moment Thorin should have at this point is his recognition of Bilbo's character and world-view. On his death-bed. That is also much more in line and a nice nod back to gandalf's speech on the deeds of every-day folk. It would build a terrific arc.
(Gandalf/Bilbo Sting Scene- Galariel/Gandalf Scene - Bilbo/Gollum Scene - Thorin's Death Bed Scene - Gandalf/Frodo in Moria Scene - Gollum's Death Scene)
After he was mortally wounded (by either Azog or Bolg) and having failed to kill either of them - with Kili and Fili having died defending their wounded uncle, all that is left for Thorin is to accept what has happened partially because of his own greed and pride. He aknowledges it and dies at peace with Bilbo.
No big redemption, no 180° character turn.
A nice side-effect would be that the killing/dying ratio of the book could be restored: Dain killing Azog, Beorn killing Bolg.
Having Thorin killing Azog in an outburst of fury because he sees his nephews being killed... ugh, would that be horribly clishéed, lame and lazy.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Oct 24 2014, 11:55am)
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Mithfânion
Rivendell
Oct 24 2014, 12:11pm
Post #2 of 43
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I would prefer if Thorin and Dain together make an end to Azog, and Thorin is mortally wounded in the process.
At this point I do not see any way for it to be just Dain vs Azog, and it would feel unsatisfying now after all that build up between the two.
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Arannir
Valinor
Oct 24 2014, 12:14pm
Post #3 of 43
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There can be a climax between the two.
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And Thorin can also wound him so Dain can finish him more easily... but in the direct duel between Azog and Thorin, the latter should lose imho.
Would also give Dain some weight as he becomes king later despite the fact that we do not know much about him.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Shagrat
Gondor
Oct 24 2014, 12:17pm
Post #4 of 43
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If at some point Thorin comes to the aid of Bilbo, and it is this act which ultimately ends up dooming him. It's quite obvious Bilbo will have a larger role in this battle, even if he is on the Ravenhill, away from the most intense fighting.
But I think it should be that Thorin lies mortally wounded and is about to be finished off by Azog or Bolg (depending on who dies earlier) when Beorn arrives and completely turns the battle, killing the enemy commander and leading to a rally from the remaining Dwarves, Elves and Men. I suspect he will do this in one go and then, once the enemy is in flight and the battle all but won, he'll carry Thorin's broken body from the field. I'm now wondering if they'll have him do this in man form...I'm almost tearing up just thinking of that image. 
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Kendalf
Rohan
Oct 24 2014, 12:19pm
Post #5 of 43
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Personally, I'm expecting Thorin to down Azog
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Personally I believe that the tragic climax of...Thorin's...arc will only work...if he does not get some hero-scene...in which he kills Azog.
Having Thorin killing Azog in an outburst of fury because he sees his nephews being killed... ugh, would that be horribly clishéed, lame and lazy.
I'm not so hopeful, Arannir...but neither am I especially worried.
I think it's just a matter of fact that mainstream blockbusters like to give their protagonists some sort of closure, some sort of achievement. Having Thorin die without having achieved anything at all (in fact, quite the contrary, having destroyed everything) would be an unusually bleak climax for a popcorn movie.
Personally, I'm expecting something more along the lines of Thorin kills Azog (closure!), Bolg kills Thorin (tragedy!), Dain kills Bolg (justice!)...
"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."
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Arannir
Valinor
Oct 24 2014, 12:20pm
Post #6 of 43
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... or that if they do it this way that it will somehow work for me.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Boromir Stark
Rivendell
Oct 24 2014, 12:30pm
Post #7 of 43
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This is exactly how I think it should be done, too.
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I'd personally rather have Dain fight and kill Azog himself in order to restore the canon, but since they've already gone and set up Thorin to be Azog's nemesis, they need to involve him in Azog's eventual fate somehow.
Thorin should get first crack at Azog, and get whooped. Before Azog finishes him off, Dain comes to the rescue and the two dwarf-lords face him together. Azog and Thorin both deal each other a mortal blow, and then Dain finishes Azog off.
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Boromir Stark
Rivendell
Oct 24 2014, 12:32pm
Post #8 of 43
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I'd love a showdown between Bolg and Beorn in man-form first, wielding his giant axe.
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I picture Bolg getting the upper hand after a close duel, and knocking Beorn over a ledge. As Bolg goes to inspect, Beorn leaps back up in bear-form and knocks his head off with one blow.
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schadowfax
The Shire
Oct 24 2014, 12:46pm
Post #9 of 43
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beorn battles bolg man to man in man form then further down the line after getting bashed a few times and bolg making him angry he turns into a bear and rips bolg apart like the incredible hulk did to loki in avengers just in a more serious manner. the OP is onto something and in terms of good storytelling esp in this instance is spot on, thorin shudnt get the honour of killing azog as this battle is not about revenge, its about transformation for and of the greater good which imho lies within us and in this case within thorin, the battle and the losses will purify them all
"You must stay on the path, do not leave it. If you do, you'll never find it again. No matter what may come, stay on the path!" - Gandalf
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Elessar
Valinor
Oct 24 2014, 12:58pm
Post #10 of 43
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I can see Jackson doing this. Will he? We shall find out in December. As far as these movies being popcorn movies I as a fan of these movies sort of find that term insulting. 
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Kendalf
Rohan
Oct 24 2014, 1:12pm
Post #11 of 43
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As far as these movies being popcorn movies I...sort of find that term insulting
Why?
These films are popcorn movies in every sense of the term. Eye-wateringly expensive, tentpole, event movies that have to attract millions of casual movie-goers in order to justify their expense.
And popcorn movies don't have to be "bad"; just look at the first Pirates movie, or Avengers, or Guardians of the Galaxy or any number of other quality, mass-appeal movies.
"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Oct 24 2014, 1:14pm
Post #12 of 43
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Beornzz TRANSFORMATION needs to seen..
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we got a quiet littl' glimpse?
.. of his Transformation in the current flim
WHY NOT? show the Man to Bear moment this time?
Sorta OF a
Stashed AWAY
surprize
PJ often has,, OFTEN
many LONG SLEEVES
kept quiet
with surprizzzes hidden up to hiz
ELBOWS!
A "Movie Magician"
needs to SURPRIZE
or go home?
way COOL in BROAD DayLight?
Bring Beornnn..on !
THEN...GETz even LARGER
as he getz wounded?
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Oct 24 2014, 1:20pm
Post #13 of 43
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I have always thought that the only vital point about timing in the book is that Thorin realises too late that his greed has destroyed himself and his nephews. The orc (whether Bolg or Azog) was never the real villain.
If Thorin is mortally wounded and the boys are dead, then it is still "too late" for any happy or victorious ending for Thorin. Killing Azog doesn't solve anything, turn the tide of battle or produce a happy ending.
I also don't see any requirement for Dain to kill an orc to be seen as king. Apologies for repeating a point I have made previously, but it is greed which Dain overcomes (where Thorin could not) and it is that which makes him a worthy ruler. Being able to kill big orcs is no more the right qualifaction for Dain to be king than it was for Theoden or Aragorn.
Or at least that's how I read it!
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Arannir
Valinor
Oct 24 2014, 2:29pm
Post #14 of 43
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That is how different one can see such things :)
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For me it is vital that Thorin does not kill Azog.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Elessar
Valinor
Oct 24 2014, 2:48pm
Post #15 of 43
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When I think of popcorn movies
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I think of things like The Expendables films. Films that are fun but don't have much depth.
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Elessar
Valinor
Oct 24 2014, 2:49pm
Post #16 of 43
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is going to be fun to watch. 
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor
Oct 24 2014, 5:11pm
Post #17 of 43
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I think it's the chance to end it in an almost Shakespearean way (BOOK SPOILERS)
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It's the chance to end the whole Middle-earth Saga with a big and emotional blast and the time to proof that these movies are not like the current blockbuster flood with all it's all powerful, invincible and successful heroes. It's not about CGI it's about characters and story. And yes at the end of THE HOBBIT the side of good will win the battle, kill the dragon and drive the Necromancer out of Dol Guldur but not without it's casualties.
We know that at least three fan favorite and main characters will die (if Jackson goes after the book): Thorin, Kili and Fili.
The future of two other characters is uncertain. They might die or at least leave Middle-earth as well: Tauriel and Radagast
We will have a tragic love story: Tauriel and Kili
We will have strong character development between two heroes (who already went through a lot) from friends, turning against each other and finally ending up in redemption: Thorin and Bilbo
If we now even have a tragic hero who almost reaches his goal but finally fails on every level... how Shakespearean would that be? When Thorin fails on everything: Saving his nephews, becoming king and killing Azog but his friendship with Bilbo is the redemption he needs... after all the two of them went through? Could anybody imagine a better and more emotional ending of a story called THE HOBBIT? I can't. It would definitely differentiate this trilogy from other modern blockbusters and also from the ending of TLOTR. There's nothing like this in LOTR... perhaps Boromirs death is similar but since he only was a real hero at the end of FOTR it won't have the same impact on the audience like Thorins death. I really hope that Jackson takes this chance!
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
(This post was edited by Lieutenant of Dol Guldur on Oct 24 2014, 5:13pm)
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Elessar
Valinor
Oct 24 2014, 5:33pm
Post #18 of 43
(656 views)
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It will be a roller coaster as I said in another thread. So many big moments I think that will have such an impact on us as viewers.
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Mithfânion
Rivendell
Oct 24 2014, 9:46pm
Post #19 of 43
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I doubt they will show much of Beorn fighting in man form, though I'd love that.
I think he will arrive already in a state of extreme aggravation and be in battle mode.
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Kendalf
Rohan
Oct 25 2014, 12:18am
Post #20 of 43
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Shakespeare and Jackson's "Hobbit" shouldn't appear the same sentence, I'm afraid
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I think it's the chance to end it in an almost Shakespearean way...It's...the time to proof that these movies are not like the current blockbuster flood...It's not about CGI it's about characters and story.
There will be nothing Shakespearean about the climax of these movies. Nothing. We are getting completely carried away with ourselves if we think this trilogy deserves even the most remote comparison.
Remember, these are the films in which elves balance one-footed on the head of an agitated dwarf whilst he struggles to remain upright in a barrel hurtling down a white-water rapid. These are the films in which a dwarf can teeter on the snout of a gargantuan fire-breathing reptile and escape entirely, completely unscathed. I'm sorry, LDG, but on far too many occasions these films are about CGI, over and over and over again.
You're right in that these films "are not like the current blockbuster flood". They have neither the wit of the Marvel franchise nor the discipline of the Hunger Games but what we can hope for is a climax that eschews the usual Hollywood heroics and instead presents audiences with a far more challenging denouement. That, I'm looking forward to...
And for that, we have a certain Professor to thank...
"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Oct 25 2014, 4:11am
Post #21 of 43
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'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Oct 25 2014, 4:16am
Post #22 of 43
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I wouldn't call "popcorn-movie" one that
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provides you with such beautiful and inspired lines as the ones you made into your own footer. 
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Oct 25 2014, 4:19am
Post #23 of 43
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Wouldn't use this term for them either. //
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'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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Elessar
Valinor
Oct 25 2014, 4:20am
Post #24 of 43
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Opinions are like belly buttons. Everybody has one. Something to keep in mind when stating ones opinion in a manner that reads more like fact than opinion.
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Elessar
Valinor
Oct 25 2014, 4:22am
Post #25 of 43
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Of course that definition may fluid for some but for a few of us they're not that at least.
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