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Quandaries: The Beacons & the Red Arrow ?

Bracegirdle
Valinor


Oct 22 2014, 1:13pm

Post #1 of 21 (3562 views)
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Quandaries: The Beacons & the Red Arrow ? Can't Post

We know the Seven Northern Beacons were lit on the evening of Mar. 8th and dark morning hours of the 9th as Gandalf and Pippin reach the Rammas Echor at dawn of Mar. 9th. (Tale of Years & III, bk. v, ch. 1)
In Minas Tirith just before noon of the 9th during a conversation with Beregond Pippin asks,

Quote
“But why were the beacons lit last night?” (ibid)

This would be the evening of Mar. 8th. On the same page Beregond answers:

Quote
’But if you would know what I think set the beacons ablaze, it was the news that came yestereve [the 8th] out of Lebennin. There is a great fleet drawing near to the mouths of Anduin, manned by the corsairs of Umbar in the South. They have long ceased to fear the might of Gondor, and they have allied them with the Enemy, and now make a heavy stroke in his cause.

Thus we know the Beacons were alight the evening of the 8th and the early morning (dark) hours of the 9th.

Now Gandalf states that it will take Shadowfax 2 days to reach Minas Tirith from Edoras (I figure closer to 2 ½ days), (II, bk. III, ch. 11).
Thus it would take Hirgon a very minimum of 3 days (probably closer to 4 days) to reach Dunharrow from Minas Tirith to deliver the Red Arrow (even using a “pony express” horse-relay type system); and we know that Theoden reaches Dunharrow at dusk of Mar. 9th and receives the Red Arrow very soon thereafter (TY & III, bk. v, ch. III).
Working backward from dusk of the 9th Hirgon would have had to leave Minas Tirith at the very least at dusk of Mar. 6th.

So, up for discussion – or my question: Why did Denethor send the Red Arrow on Mar. 6th (or even the 5th)? And if he had some knowledge on the 6th (perhaps some bogus information received from Sauron through the Anor Stone), why did he wait until the 8th to order the lighting of the Beacons? If a danger was sensed would not both these actions be taken simultaneously even though the Red Arrow would take many times longer (days) than the lighting of the Beacons (maybe 2 hours)?

(It also seems awfully strange that no one at any time anywhere in Rohan mentions that the Halifirien (the border beacon) was alight!?)

He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.
-Gandalf


Darkstone
Immortal


Oct 22 2014, 2:27pm

Post #2 of 21 (3418 views)
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Weren't the same. [In reply to] Can't Post

The beacons and the Red Arrow were two different systems for two different purposes. The beacons seem to have been the warning system for Anórien:

"See, there is the fire on Amon Dîn, and flame on Eilenach; and there they go speeding west: Nardol, Erelas, Min-Rimmon, Calenhad, and the Halifirien on the borders of Rohan."
-Minas Tirith

The Red Arrow seems to be the warning signal for Rohan itself. Note Theoden doesn't even mention the beacons.

So why the time difference? I'd say lighting the beacons was held off so Hirgon could get through to Rohan safely. The moment the beacons lit up all the orcs in the area would know the alarm was being raised, and so would especially vigilant for any riders between Rohan and Gondor. In the event that seems to be exactly what happened, as Hirgon ran into orcs that killed him and his companion.

Note that the beacon posts were used to keep fresh horses for riders, including apparently Hirgon.

Pippin became drowsy again and paid little attention to Gandalf telling him of the customs of Gondor, and how the Lord of the City had beacons built on the tops of outlying hills along both borders of the great range, and maintained posts at these points where fresh horses were always in readiness to bear his errand-riders to Rohan in the North, or to Belfalas in the South.
-ibid

But soon Elfhelm returned. 'The scouts have found naught to report beyond the grey wood, lord,' he said, 'save two men only: two dead men and two dead horses.'
'Well?' said Éomer. 'What of it?'
'This, lord: they were errand-riders of Gondor; Hirgon was one maybe. At least his hand still clasped the Red Arrow, but his head was hewn off. And this also: it would seem by the signs that they were fleeing *westward* when they fell. As I read it, they found the enemy already on the out-wall, or assailing it, when they returned – and that would be two nights ago, if they used fresh horses from the posts, as is their wont.'

-The Ride of Rohirrim.

******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Oct 22 2014, 5:05pm

Post #3 of 21 (3388 views)
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Good thinking Dark... but my quandaries still exist.. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The beacons and the Red Arrow were two different systems for two different purposes. The beacons seem to have been the warning system for Anórien:

The Red Arrow was definitely a call for aid from Gondor to Edoras/Calenardhon; made at the meeting on the Halifirien between Eorl and Cirion.
In origin after the loss of the Osgiliath-stone the Beacon system was begun, and naturally at that time it was a call for aid within Anorien. I had always assumed that the completed Beacon system was a call for aid throughout Anorien and also a call for aid Gondor to Rohan.

From U.T. Cirion and Eorl, note 35:

Quote
It is said elsewhere, in a note on the names of the beacons, that ‘the full beacon system, that was still operating in the War of the Ring. . . for its principal function was to warn the Rohirrim that Gondor was in danger, or (more rarely) the reverse’. (My bold)

So from the Oath of Eorl and the Gift of Cirion the Red Arrow seemed to have the singular function of a call to Rohan from Gondor; but the Seven Beacons had a dual function of a call within Anorien and to Rohan also. So it seems that, yes, they had a similar function.

“So why the time difference? I'd say lighting the beacons was held off so Hirgon could get through to Rohan safely.”

This IMO makes little sense. As I said, if Denethor saw danger he would light the Beacons immediately. If he feared for the Arrow-bearer because of this lighting perhaps he would not send him at all, or send him as a backup in case the entire Beacon system failed and Halifirien was not lit (which seems probable, as you say Theoden (nor anyone in Rohan) never mentioned that the Halifirien was lit.
Let’s not forget that Hirgon completed his mission and was killed on the return journey.

Whether horses were kept on the Beacon Hills seems to have little to do with the discussion; we are talking about over 300 miles, Seven Beacons; at least 45 miles (average) between Beacons.

He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.
-Gandalf


Darkstone
Immortal


Oct 22 2014, 6:33pm

Post #4 of 21 (3383 views)
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Thanks...but I don't see it. [In reply to] Can't Post

The Red Arrow was definitely a call for aid from Gondor to Edoras/Calenardhon; made at the meeting on the Halifirien between Eorl and Cirion.

Yes.


In origin after the loss of the Osgiliath-stone the Beacon system was begun, and naturally at that time it was a call for aid within Anorien. I had always assumed that the completed Beacon system was a call for aid throughout Anorien and also a call for aid Gondor to Rohan.

But the last beacon is still in Gondor. If the system was meant to summon aid from Rohan wouldn’t the beacon system extend into Rohan so that (like in Jackson’s TTT) the last beacon could be seen from Edoras?


From U.T. Cirion and Eorl, note 35:
________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
It is said elsewhere, in a note on the names of the beacons, that ‘the full beacon system, that was still operating in the War of the Ring. . . for its principal function was to warn the Rohirrim that Gondor was in danger, or (more rarely) the reverse’. (My bold)
________________________________________
So from the Oath of Eorl and the Gift of Cirion the Red Arrow seemed to have the singular function of a call to Rohan from Gondor; but the Seven Beacons had a dual function of a call within Anorien and to Rohan also. So it seems that, yes, they had a similar function.


But to summon aid from Gondor via the beacon system, Rohan would have to send a rider from Edoras (in Rohan) to Halifirien (in Gondor), through the forces of whatever threat predicated the alarm, which would expose the rider(s) to the same fate Hirgon met from marauding orcs in Gondor. And so the beacons don't get lit, Gondor never gets word, Rohan falls.

For this note to make sense there needs to be beacons all the way to Edoras. That there aren't makes me strongly suspect the note is merely an idle thought in the development process rather than germane to the finished work.


“So why the time difference? I'd say lighting the beacons was held off so Hirgon could get through to Rohan safely.”

This IMO makes little sense. As I said, if Denethor saw danger he would light the Beacons immediately.


Yes, it makes little sense assuming the beacon and the Red Arrow systems were redundant functions. But if they are separate systems for different functions it gives Denethor an excellent reason for introducing the time differential and answers your conundrum quite nicely.


If he feared for the Arrow-bearer because of this lighting perhaps he would not send him at all, or send him as a backup in case the entire Beacon system failed and Halifirien was not lit (which seems probable, as you say Theoden (nor anyone in Rohan) never mentioned that the Halifirien was lit.

Gandalf and Pippin saw it lit:

There was a silence again for a while. Then, 'What is that?' cried Pippin suddenly, clutching at Gandalf's cloak. 'Look! Fire, red fire! Are there dragons in this land? Look, there is another!'
For answer Gandalf cried aloud to his horse. 'On, Shadowfax! We must hasten. Time is short. See! The beacons of Gondor are alight, calling for aid. War is kindled. See, there is the fire on Amon Dîn, and flame on Eilenach; and there they go speeding west: Nardol, Erelas, Min-Rimmon, Calenhad, and the Halifirien on the borders of Rohan.’

-Minas Tirith


That neither Theoden nor anyone else in Rohan notes that the beacons are lit (or for that matter unlit) is significant. It means the lighting of the beacons is irrelevant to Rohan. It is only the delivery of the Red Arrow that matters.


Let’s not forget that Hirgon completed his mission and was killed on the return journey.

Exactly! Hirgon was killed *after* the beacons were lit! If the beacons had been lit earlier the same orcs doubtless would have killed him on the journey to Edoras, the Red Arrow would never have gotten to Theoden, thus no Ride of the Rohirrim, and Gondor falls!

Denethor knew exactly what he was doing!

******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Oct 22 2014, 8:19pm

Post #5 of 21 (3360 views)
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I don't see it either -- good company [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
But the last beacon is still in Gondor. If the system was meant to summon aid from Rohan wouldn’t the beacon system extend into Rohan so that (like in Jackson’s TTT) the last beacon could be seen from Edoras? “

From the same source as above: “In later days, however, as the Rohirrim grew in power and numbers, while Gondor declined and was ever threatened form the East and by sea, the wardens of Anwar [Halifirien] were provided entirely by the people of Eastfold, and the Wood became by custom part of the royal domain of the Kings of the Mark.”


In Reply To
For this note to make sense there needs to be beacons all the way to Edoras. That there aren't makes me strongly suspect the note is merely an idle thought in the development process rather than germane to the finished work.

This and the above quote that “the principal function was to warn the Rohirrim that Gondor was in danger” during WOR are the words of JRRT. So the last Beacon (Halifirien) WAS at the time in question part of Rohan. (Books please! I take Jackson with a ho-hum.) Do we know that the blaze of Halifirien could not been seen from Edoras? We don’t.
Perhaps you take the words in U.T. as idle thoughts – I don’t. They are just too detailed. But, yes we can interpret as we choose.


In Reply To
Yes, it makes little sense assuming the beacon and the Red Arrow systems were redundant functions. But if they are separate systems for different functions it gives Denethor an excellent reason for introducing the time differential and answers your conundrum quite nicely.

We know why the Beacons were lit (on the 8th). We don’t know why the Arrow was sent on the 6th (or earlier). Conundrum lives.


In Reply To
That neither Theoden nor anyone else in Rohan notes that the beacons are lit (or for that matter unlit) is significant. It means the lighting of the beacons is irrelevant to Rohan. It is only the delivery of the Red Arrow that matters.

That was another of my original conundrums. That no one in Rohan (or Eastfold) mentions that the Halifirien was lit. Yet we DO know that the Beacons were lit. This does not necessarily mean that the Beacons were irrelevant to Rohan (certainly NOT). No more irrelevant than the Red Arrow.
It simply suggests to me that just possibly the Halifirien was NEVER lit. But we DO know from your quote that Amon Din and Eilenach WERE lit. Was the head cut off the snake between Eilenach and Nardol? It seems to me that if the Halifirien was ablaze someone, somewhere, at some time would have mentioned it..??


In Reply To
Denethor knew exactly what he was doing!

He knew exactly what Sauron wanted him to know.
Thanks for your most excellent thoughts but my conundrums endure.

He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.
-Gandalf


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Oct 22 2014, 8:45pm

Post #6 of 21 (3373 views)
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Two stimuli, two warnings. [In reply to] Can't Post

I generally agree with Darkstone's reasoning on this. But I also think that the delay between dispatching Hirgon and lighting the beacons could be because there were two different stimuli to Denethor:

* Around the 4th or 5th he observed the massive buildup on the other side of the Anduin (or was informed of it by Faramir), and dispatched Hirgon to get more troops.

* On the 8th, he became aware (presumably through the Palantir) of the threat from the sea and lit the Beacons.

Halifirien was clearly on the border of Rohan, and it's quite possible that it wasn't visible from Edoras. Much would depend on how high the beacon stations were; we've often noted that the remote locations in the film, while spectacular, would have been very impractical from the point of view of maintaining a communication system with spare horses, etc. So its practicality may have depended on being sighted from settlements or guard posts in the Eastfold, not Edoras.








Bracegirdle
Valinor


Oct 22 2014, 9:23pm

Post #7 of 21 (3354 views)
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Naturally [In reply to] Can't Post

Two different stimuli to Denethor. He sent Hirgon on the 5th or 6th because of news from Faramir. A guess. Denethor was half-mad and *if* this was his reasoning it could well have come from Sauron. I don’t see Faramir in this, he was quite busy.
He ordered the Beacons lit on the 8th because of the palantir. A guess? Probably not! See above.

Halifirien was the tallest of the Seven Beacons and may have been visible from Edoras, at least Eastfold (Book Book Book).

Reasoning tells me:
1. The Red Arrow would take 3-5 days to reach Edoras.
2. The Stewards over the next 500 plus years would erect a much more efficient way of calling for aid – the Northern Beacons. That’s what a forward thinking man would do……
3. 3-5 days vs a couple hours – that’s efficiency.

He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.
-Gandalf


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Oct 22 2014, 10:27pm

Post #8 of 21 (3348 views)
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Not all that mad. [In reply to] Can't Post

I do not think Denethor really qualifies as "half mad" at this stage of the procedings. Faramir could hardly have missed the massive buildup taking place in Ithilien. He couldn't have told Denethor in person, because we know that the first time he was in MT after meeting Frodo was after Gandalf and Pippin arrived. But he would almost certainly have sent an urgent message. Of course, it's also possible that Denethor saw the buildup in the palantir, but in any case, it was real.

Having learned of such an immense force preparing to attack, Denethor would have been mad *not* to summon aid. Sending Hirgon with the Red Arrow makes sense because a messenger can (and he did) convey much more information than simply a beacon: the nature of the threat, rough time frame, specific requested action, etc.








a.s.
Valinor


Oct 22 2014, 10:40pm

Post #9 of 21 (3364 views)
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so, I don't know, but [In reply to] Can't Post

that has never stopped me from answering anything in the RR.

Angelic


Quote
We know the Seven Northern Beacons were lit on the evening of Mar. 8th and dark morning hours of the 9th as Gandalf and Pippin reach the Rammas Echor at dawn of Mar. 9th. (Tale of Years & III, bk. v, ch. 1)
In Minas Tirith just before noon of the 9th during a conversation with Beregond Pippin asks,
Quote
“But why were the beacons lit last night?” (ibid)
This would be the evening of Mar. 8th.,,,


In LOTR Companion, Hammond and Scull say editions prior to 2005 have Pippin asking "why were the beacons lit last night" but subsequent editions have "two nights ago" because, in actuality, Pippin saw "the beacons and the errand riders on the night of the full moon, 7/8 March"

I don't know if this gives any insight, though, as to why an arrow/why beacons. But just to be clear.

a.s.

"an seileachan"



Bracegirdle
Valinor


Oct 23 2014, 1:16am

Post #10 of 21 (3345 views)
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Interesting a.s. Thank you [In reply to] Can't Post

If post 2005 editions have Pippin asking about “two nights ago” then the Tale of Years is wrong having G. & P. arriving on Mar. 9th. And reading the text of ROTK it is quite clear that Pippin asks the question on the day of his and Gandalf’s arrival and he receives confirmation from Beregond.
Anyone have a newer edition?
But a single day’s discrepancy does not interfere with the questions at hand.

Could we reason together.
Could we agree that the Seven Beacons main purpose during the WOR was a call for aid from Rohan as Tolkien states in U.T. And we *do* agree that the Red Arrow *was* a call for aid to Rohan.

Denethor:
I see [by whatever means] a massive buildup of forces east of Cair Andros and other points east of the River. I must send for aid. I will send Hirgon immediately with the Red Arrow. But I will allow him 3 or 4 days head start before lighting the Beacons and he will have a better chance of getting through.

HUH? Extremely bad military tactics! If Theoden thought aid was needed it would be needed *soonest*. Why would he send only the Red Arrow but not light the Beacons which could reach the Halifirien in a couple hours? This just doesn’t seem logical to me. It’s war – all hands on deck NOW!

He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.
-Gandalf


squire
Half-elven


Oct 23 2014, 1:44am

Post #11 of 21 (3353 views)
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The question is the answer [In reply to] Can't Post

The inconsistency that you point out ("This just doesn't seem logical to me") tends to reinforce the view that the Beacons and Red Arrow were in fact used in this case for different reasons.

One note in Unfinished Tales about using the Beacons to alert Rohan doesn't seem to outweigh the fact that in every account of their placement they terminate at the limits of Anorien in Gondor, when they could well have been continued all the way to Edoras had that been their purpose. Meanwhile the Red Arrow has its own U.T. tradition directed specifically at Rohan.

The main thing to remember is that the Beacons and the Arrow were invented 'on the fly', so to speak, to serve the story at hand. Only later was a semblance of backstory developed, so it's not really surprising if inconsistencies appear only when they were written out (but not published).

I'd go with your instincts: "Why would he send only the Red Arrow but not light the Beacons...", if his initial intent on dispatching Hirgon was to call for Rohan's aid? The question is the answer.



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Bracegirdle
Valinor


Oct 23 2014, 4:22am

Post #12 of 21 (3345 views)
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Good points as usual Squire [In reply to] Can't Post

But there is actually more than a single note in U.T. about the Beacons being used as a call to Rohan:

The Palantiri:
Denethor sitting before the Anor-stone anxious about Rohan, and deciding whether or not at once to order the kindling of the beacons and the sending out of the ‘arrow’. . .

“Kindling” *and* “sending”? "at once"? Is this the passage sending me into wonderland?

Yes the Beacons terminated at the boundary of Gondor but as stated the Halifirien was ceded to Rohan. But that is neither here nor there. You say they could well have continued to Edoras. But perhaps they didn’t need to.
I could as well say that they could have continued to Minas Tirith but they didn’t (or was there an unnamed beacon between Amon Din and M.T.?). Could Amon Din be seen from Minas Tirith? Could the Halifirien be seen from Edoras? (Ok, contestable argument, as Minas Tirith was much closer to Amon Din than Edoras was to Halifirien, but the questions are valid nonetheless.)

I’m definitely *not* saying the LOTR text is wrong (Never never). I am saying there are questions that we can only speculate on. (And have I been speculated on!!) Unsure

Apologies to one and all who are in disagreement, as I stubbornly continue to find difficulties and, what to me, are quandaries.

I will now cease and desist an apparent losing difference of opinion, and thank all for theirs!

He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.
-Gandalf


CuriousG
Half-elven


Oct 23 2014, 12:01pm

Post #13 of 21 (3327 views)
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For the record [In reply to] Can't Post

I've had the same quandary since first read and have never been able to resolve it myself, so you're not alone, Brace. I was hoping someone else might.

The beacons seems so much more fast and efficient. Gandalf says (paraphrasing): "Look, there's one! Now another is answering. And another." It was like sending a telegram. Why even bother sending a horseman with an arrow when it can takes a couple days to do what the beacons did in one night? Just extend the line to Edoras, and you've got it.

Then if the Red Arrow IS that important, why only send 2-3 men who might get waylaid along the way? If you really want to summon thousands of ally troops to your side, send an armed company that will be certain to get there and home again.

So I'm not sure the logic of this part of the book holds up that well.

Yet another thing to consider is when Pippin and Bergil go outside Minas Tirith to watch the provincial armies march in. Some came from as far away as Pinnath Gelin, and they were clearly summoned long before any beacons went off. So why did the beacons go off so late and the Red Arrow get sent out so late when messages had already been sent farther west (presumably by boat) that were answered on foot?


a.s.
Valinor


Oct 23 2014, 12:41pm

Post #14 of 21 (3325 views)
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is the beacon lighting a fail-safe thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Did he just put off sending the red arrow too late, having no time to wait for the response before alerting every orc in ME that Gondor needed assistance, or was warning the rest of the world that war was here by lighting up mountaintops?

Conversely, did he always plan to light the beacons, as it must have been sort of iffy to rely on a man on horseback in dangerous territory to reach his destination, and the beacons are a sort of fail-safe thing?

I get lost (always!) in things like military strategy and movements in these chapters, so forgive me if I've blundered into an absurdity for which the text can enlighten me! I'll be happy to be reminded of something.

Smile

a.s.

"an seileachan"



Bracegirdle
Valinor


Oct 23 2014, 4:24pm

Post #15 of 21 (3318 views)
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Everyone has had some good thoughts on this subject. [In reply to] Can't Post

I’d like to quickly summarize my suppositions. Suppositions are, for a large part, all we have to work with:

I believe the Red Arrow *was* a call for aid between Gondor and Rohan and we all are in agreement with this.

I believe because of the passages in Unfinished Tales that during the War of the Ring the *entire*seven Beacon system *was* a call for aid Gondor to Rohan. (Yes, also a call for aid within Anorien itself.)

I believe that Theoden sent out the Red Arrow on about Mar. 5th or 6th. His reasoning could be, as stated, because of a large mustering of enemy forces east of the Anduin. Or he could have been hoodwinked by Sauron through the palantir.
I believe (it is known) that Theoden had the Beacons lit on Mar. 8th and 9th.

I believe (it is mentioned by Gandalf) that Amon Din and Eilenach (the 1st two Beacons) were aflame on these dark hours.

I believe that it is *impossible* for no one in Rohan or the Eastfold to mention that the Halifirien (on the border) was alight on the 8th & 9th.

I believe therefore that the Halifirien was *not* lit during those dark hours.

I believe that it is possible that Nardol (the 3rd Beacon) was overrun before it could be lit and the chain was thereby broken. (Remember that Gandalf states that Amon Din and Eilenach *were* aflame on the 8th & 9th.)

I believe that the Red Arrow (sent on the 5th or 6th) would take 3-4 days to reach Edoras (Dunharrow in this case).

I believe that the lighting of the Seven Beacons (dusk/evening of the 8th) would take a maximum of two hours to reach the Halifirien alerting (at least) the Eastfold.

No, I don’t know Denethor’s thinking. If he sent the Arrow on the 5th or 6th he was certainly concerned. No, I don’t know why he waited 3-4 days to light the Beacons, but I give credit that he had *some* reason, (militarily after the first shot is fired nothing goes as planned – bedlam). Had the lighting of the Beacons been successful the muster of Rohan could have begun days earlier (and been partially prepared upon the arrival of Theoden).

Yes, I do believe my suppositions are at an end. *cheers from the crowd* Evil

He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.
-Gandalf


Darkstone
Immortal


Oct 23 2014, 5:20pm

Post #16 of 21 (3318 views)
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Actually... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I believe that it is possible that Nardol (the 3rd Beacon) was overrun before it could be lit and the chain was thereby broken. (Remember that Gandalf states that Amon Din and Eilenach *were* aflame on the 8th & 9th.)


Nardol was lit:

And so King Théoden departed from his own realm, and mile by mile the long road wound away, and the beacon hills marched past: Calenhad, Min-Rimmon, Erelas, Nardol. But their fires were quenched.
-The Muster of Rohan

Their fires couldn't have been "quenched" if they hadn't been lit in the first place.

******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Oct 23 2014, 7:09pm

Post #17 of 21 (3312 views)
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Super Darkstone – but. . (always a “but”) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quenched does mean that they were lit at one point.

But we must bear in mind that the Ride of the Rohirrim began on Mar. 10th and they camped that night 36 miles east of Edoras (see page before your quote) still quite far east and north of the Halifirien. So as they passed on the 11th *all* Beacons were unlit (quenched) as they had burned out on the morning of the 9th.

But nice catch, and the break (if there was one) could have occurred most anywhere east of Eilenach.

And curious why Halifirien is not mentioned in your quote? (Ain’t it always something?) Wink

He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.
-Gandalf


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Oct 23 2014, 8:28pm

Post #18 of 21 (3323 views)
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Oh, to answer my own ? [In reply to] Can't Post

And curious why Halifirien is not mentioned in your quote? (Ain’t it always something?)

IT WAS DAYLIGHT? CrazyCrazy

He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.
-Gandalf


(This post was edited by Bracegirdle on Oct 23 2014, 8:33pm)


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Oct 25 2014, 3:27pm

Post #19 of 21 (3266 views)
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Important note on Denethor and Theoden. . . [In reply to] Can't Post

Did you ever notice that Denethor and Theoden have exactly the same letters?

Well, Denethor does have an "r" (extra letter), so. . . nevermind! Wink

He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.
-Gandalf


CuriousG
Half-elven


Oct 25 2014, 5:20pm

Post #20 of 21 (3265 views)
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You've unmasked Superman and Clark Kent. [In reply to] Can't Post

It explains why Denethor and Theoden are never seen in the same room together--it's the same guy. They both die on the same day too. Conspiracy theories abound.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Oct 25 2014, 5:59pm

Post #21 of 21 (3329 views)
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Double LOL - read again.. and repeat [In reply to] Can't Post

You're killing me..UnsureUnsure

But neither (or HE as the case may be) were more powerful than a locomotive, or faster than a speeding bullet.

All seriousness aside - this badly needs to be explored in The Arena . TongueTongue Can the same guy die in two different ways? Squashed AND burnt? I'm sooo confused.
Let the bickering begin! Mad

He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.
-Gandalf

 
 

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