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**The unofficial Bored of the Rings discussion** Ch. VIII, pt. 4. - Sorhed spent all his time at the witch-works and Mazola sat home watching the daytime mallomar serials.

squire
Half-elven


Oct 14 2014, 3:56am

Post #1 of 8 (2588 views)
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**The unofficial Bored of the Rings discussion** Ch. VIII, pt. 4. - Sorhed spent all his time at the witch-works and Mazola sat home watching the daytime mallomar serials. Can't Post

Welcome back! Continuing with our discussion of Chapter VIII, let’s follow Frito, Spam, and Goddam on their journey to Fordor after their abortive interview with the sheepish Green Toupees. (Here are links to our earlier discussions of this chapter: Goddam, Approaching Fordor, Farahslax)

It was not many hours before night when the green men left, and after a leisurely meal of apple cheeks and cauliflower ears, Frito, Spam, and Goddam returned to the high road and passed quickly out of the forest and into the wide asphalt waste that lay beneath the eastern slope of Fordor. By nightfall they had come under the shadow of the black chimneys of Chikken Noodul, the dread company town that stood across from Minas Troney. From deep within the earth came the heavy whomp-whomp of fell engines producing overshoes and mess kits for Sorhed's war machine.



Aliquippa, Pa. in the 1980s.

A. What is the joke about ‘a leisurely meal of apple cheeks and cauliflower ears’?

B. Does the BotR version of the fortress of Minas Morgul – the company town Chikken Noodul – have anything in common with its original? Or, what is different? And how does it compare to … Serutanland?

In contrast to the original, just two sentences get us from the bit with the rabbits to the Morgul Vale. Now, some highlights of Book IV include: the landscape of Ithilien as a respite from the horror of Mordor; the Ring’s increasing power over Frodo; Gollum’s conflict between lust for the Ring and loyalty to Frodo; the growth of Sam as Frodo is crushed by his burden; the onset of the Great Darkness and Sauron’s war on the West.
C. Did the authors skip anything that was worth making fun of?

Goddam led Frito and Spam through the brown gloom to a fin-worn salmon ladder that led sharply up into the heavy mass of the Sol Hurok, the great cliffs of Fordor. They climbed for what seemed like an hour. An hour later they reached the top, exhausted and gagging on the heavy air, and flung themselves down on a narrow ledge at the mouth of a great cavern overlooking the black vale.
Above them wheeled huge flocks of black pelicans, and all around them lightning flashed and graves yawned and fell asleep.
"Things look black, and no mistake," said Spam.



A yawning grave?

Well, I may be out of my reckoning, but these last few passages seem to have a much greater proportion of “Tolkien” and much less of “Lampoon” than usual. The jokes, such as they are, are pro-forma twists on Tolkien’s use of language; while phrase after phrase could, I bet, be safely placed into this chapter of The Lord of the Rings without alteration.
D. What do you think? Or don’t you?

A pungent smell of old pastrami and rancid gherkins floated out of the cave, and from deep within some hidden chamber came the sinister click of knitting needles.
Frito and Spam walked warily into the tunnel, and Goddam shuffled after them, a rare smile playing across his face.


“Old pastrami”, “rancid gherkins”, and “knitting needles”.
E. What do these terms mean? And what are they supposed to make us think of – before the elaborate backstory that is about to unfold?

Holy Backstory!
Ages ago when the world was young and Sorhed's heart had not yet hardened like stale cheesecake, he had taken a young troll-maiden as his wife. Her name was Mazola, called by the elves Blanche, and she married the handsome young witch-king over the objections of her parents, who pointed out that Sorhed "simply wasn't trollish" and could never provide for her special needs. But the two were young and starry-eyed. The first hundred thousand years found the newlyweds still quite happy; they then lived in a converted three-room dungeon with a view, and while the ambitious hubby studied demonology and business administration at night school, Mazola bore him nine strapping wraiths.






Then came the day when Sorhed learned of the Great Ring and the many powers it would bring him in his climb to the top. Forgetting all else, he yanked his sons from medical school over his wife's strident objections and dubbed them Nozdruls. But the First Ring War went badly. Sorhed and his Ringers barely escaped with their lives. From then on their marital relations went from bad to worse. Sorhed spent all his time at the witch-works and Mazola sat home casting evil spells and watching the daytime mallomar serials. She began to put on weight. Then, one day, Sorhed found Mazola and a mallomar repairman in a compromising position and immediately filed divorce proceedings, eventually winning custody of the Nine Nozdrul.






Mazola, now banished to her drab surroundings in the bowels of Sol Hurok, let her hatred grow and fester. Schlob, was she now called. For eons she nurtured her pique, obsessively stuffing herself with bon-bons, movie magazines, and an occasional spelunker. At first, Sorhed dutifully sent her monthly alimony payments of a dozen or so narc volunteers, but these gifts soon stopped when word got around what a dinner invitation with Sorhed's ex actually entailed. Her gnawing fury knew no bounds. She prowled her lair with murderous intent, eternally cursing the memory of her husband and his derisive trolack jokes. For ages her only interest had been revenge as she brooded in her dark, dark lair. Cutting off her lights had been the last straw.






Three paragraphs (“without a punchline”) –
F. Is there anywhere else in this story where the narrative looks backward for so long? Why do the authors do it here?

A Mixed Marriage gone bad? The Organization Man sells his soul? The Divorce from Hell?
G. What standard story is this a spoof of? Or perhaps more technically, can you name or discuss some of the more serious treatments of this story that the authors are referring to?

Here Sorhed and Schlob are husband and wife; the Nozdrul are their nine sons.
H. Can we see these relations in the original story?

“Ages ago…”, “The first hundred thousand years”, “For eons…”, “eternally cursing…”, “For ages…”
I. Why such extremes of time passage?

The joke about “a dinner invitation with Sorhed’s ex” has always been the funniest part of this section for me. It cleverly picks up on both the note in the original narrative where Sauron cynically writes off the loss of a few orc-slaves to Shelob, and also the Ungol orcs’ jokes about the dangers of working with ‘her ladyship’.
J. Are there other parts of this section today that so knowingly spoof Tolkien’s original?

It’s inevitable – vocab break! What are the origins, meanings, and/or implications of:
K. Mazola, Blanche, simply wasn’t trollish, converted three-room dungeon, ambitious hubby, climb to the top, yanked his sons from medical school, witch-works, evil spells, daytime mallomar serials, began to put on weight, mallomar repairman, compromising position, bowels of Sol Hurok, nurtured her pique, bon-bons, spelunker, derisive trolack jokes, cutting off her lights?



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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noWizardme
Half-elven


Oct 16 2014, 2:46pm

Post #2 of 8 (2388 views)
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What is the joke about ‘a leisurely meal of apple cheeks and cauliflower ears’? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just in case a literal answer is useful: neither is edible, though it sounds like they are.

Someone is described as having "apple cheeks" if they have round, rosy cheeks.

A "cauliflower ear" is an ear that is mis-shapen through repeated injury (e.g. boxers and rugby players sometimes have them)

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Darkstone
Immortal


Oct 17 2014, 5:38pm

Post #3 of 8 (2395 views)
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The Ringbearer Cometh [In reply to] Can't Post

And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps.

-Matthew 25:6-7


A. What is the joke about ‘a leisurely meal of apple cheeks and cauliflower ears’?

Both are parts of human anatomy so we're talking...cannibalism?

Apple cheeks are produced by a thicker than normal malar fat pad that give some people, especially babies and young people, red round prominent cheeks. However, with ageing the pad begins to slip, causing the lower eyelids to droop and producing prominent jowls. Cosmetic surgery removes or thins the pad to restore a more youthful appearance.

Cauliflower ears are produced when injury to the ears causes separation of the ear cartilage from blood vessels, causing the cartilage to die and shrivel up, turning it, and the ear, into a deformed shape much like a cauliflower. It is a common characteristic in sports where there are frequent blows to the head, such as boxing. Curiously, in the late 1800s/early 1900s, doctors thought cauliflower ears were caused by brain damage, as opposed to being caused by getting whopped constantly in the head. Sometime cause and effect aren’t exactly clear even to the most educated.


B. Does the BotR version of the fortress of Minas Morgul – the company town Chikken Noodul – have anything in common with its original?

There was Tower Chicken Farm in Milwaukee, but nowadays it no longer raises chickens, only butchers them for local food establishments, especially providing chicken fries for bars.

Meanwhile “nodul” would mean “be hidden” in Sindarin, which would be appropriate for a town obscured under the smoke of many black chimneys.

BTW, the origin of the term “chicken noodle soup” is a linguistic blunder. In the early 20th century during a radio commercial an announcer mispronounced “Campbell’s Chicken Soup with Noodles” as “Campbell’s Chicken Noodle Soup”. The result was a rush of grocery shoppers demanding to buy this new “chicken noodle soup”. Campbell’s readily obliged by some quick relabeling. I think Tolkien would like the story.


Or, what is different?

They’re pretty much the same, only different.


And how does it compare to … Serutanland?

Serutan was also advertised heavily on the radio, especially on shows with older audiences, with the tagline “Serutan is ‘natures’ spelled backwards”. Serutan was marketed as the one healthy laxative with all natural ingredients as opposed to all those others that had harmful (probably) artificial ingredients. As for Chikken Noodul, of course nothing’s healthier than chicken soup, except maybe chicken noodle soup. Ah, the power of advertising!


In contrast to the original, just two sentences get us from the bit with the rabbits to the Morgul Vale. Now, some highlights of Book IV include: the landscape of Ithilien as a respite from the horror of Mordor; the Ring’s increasing power over Frodo; Gollum’s conflict between lust for the Ring and loyalty to Frodo; the growth of Sam as Frodo is crushed by his burden; the onset of the Great Darkness and Sauron’s war on the West.
C. Did the authors skip anything that was worth making fun of?


Sure sounds like it!


Goddam led Frito and Spam through the brown gloom to a fin-worn salmon ladder that led sharply up into the heavy mass of the Sol Hurok, the great cliffs of Fordor.

It’s amusing that apparently an ecologically sensitive Sorhed has constructed a fish ladder for salmon. Fish ladders are a series of steps and pools next to a dam that allow migrating fish to swim up streams that would otherwise be blocked by a dam. It’s further humorous that “fin-worn” gives us an image of fish climbing up a literal ladder using their fins as arms and legs. Interestingly enough, this is reminiscent of the natural fish ladder that is the Dimril Stair at the East Gate of Moria:

They rose and looked about them. Northward the dale ran up into a glen of shadows between two great arms of the mountains, above which three white peaks were shining: Celebdil, Fanuidhol, Caradhras. the Mountains of Moria. At the head of the glen a torrent flowed like a white lace over an endless ladder of short falls, and a mist of foam hung in the air about the mountains' feet.
`Yonder is the Dimrill Stair,' said Aragorn, pointing to the falls. 'Down the deep-cloven way that climbs beside the torrent we should have come, if fortune had been kinder.'

-Lothlorien

BTW, the paddlefish almost became extinct because of fish ladder construction. Turns out they are especially sensitive to magnetic fields and the rebar in the concrete steps of fish ladders was confusing them.


They climbed for what seemed like an hour. An hour later they reached the top, exhausted and gagging on the heavy air, and flung themselves down on a narrow ledge at the mouth of a great cavern overlooking the black vale.
Above them wheeled huge flocks of black pelicans,


An interesting reference to the black swans in FOTR:

Once or twice the travellers heard the rush and whine of swan-wings, and looking up they saw a great phalanx streaming along the sky.
`Swans! ' said Sam. `And mighty big ones too! '
`Yes,' said Aragorn, 'and they are black swans.'

-The Great River.

BTW, in the folklore of the Murri people of Queensland pelicans were originally black.


…and all around them lightning flashed and graves yawned and fell asleep.

According to the Bard, a reference to the ill omens preceding the death of Julius Caesar:

Why birds and beasts from quality and kind,
Why old men fool and children calculate,
Why all these things change from their ordinance
Their natures and preformèd faculties
To monstrous quality—why, you shall find
That heaven hath infused them with these spirits
To make them instruments of fear and warning
Unto some monstrous state.
Now could I, Casca, name to thee a man
Most like this dreadful night,
That thunders, lightens, opens graves, and roars
As doth the lion in the Capitol.

-Julius Caesar, Act I, Scene 3

As for "yawning graves", again the Bard:

Caesar, I never stood on ceremonies,
Yet now they fright me. There is one within,
Besides the things that we have heard and seen,
Recounts most horrid sights seen by the watch.
A lioness hath whelpèd in the streets,
And graves have yawned and yielded up their dead.

-Julius Caesar, Act II, Scene 2.


"Things look black, and no mistake," said Spam.

Sam’s talent for understatement shines through:

'I am sorry to take leave of Master Bombadil,' said Sam. 'He's a caution and no mistake.’
- Fog on the Barrow-Downs

`What did I tell you, Mr. Pippin? ' said Sam, sheathing his sword. `Wolves won't get him. That was an eye-opener, and no mistake! Nearly singed the hair off my head!'
-A Journey in the Dark

I do note both Farmer Maggot and Butterbur use the term as well.

He backed the waggon into the lane and turned it. 'Well, good night to you all,' he said. 'It's been a queer day, and no mistake.’
-A Short Cut to Mushrooms

'Well, you do want looking after and no mistake: your party might be on a holiday!' said Butterbur.
-Strider



Well, I may be out of my reckoning, but these last few passages seem to have a much greater proportion of “Tolkien” and much less of “Lampoon” than usual. The jokes, such as they are, are pro-forma twists on Tolkien’s use of language; while phrase after phrase could, I bet, be safely placed into this chapter of The Lord of the Rings without alteration.
D. What do you think? Or don’t you?


Pretty much.


A pungent smell of old pastrami and rancid gherkins floated out of the cave,…

A popular sandwich on the 1950s menu of a New York Woolworths (a five and dime store) was a pastrami, gherkin, and mustard sandwich..


..and from deep within some hidden chamber came the sinister click of knitting needles.

I remember going shopping with Mom in the 1960s and she’d carefully go through the huge selection of knitting patterns and books at Woolworths.



“Old pastrami”, “rancid gherkins”, and “knitting needles”.
E. What do these terms mean?


Sandwich and a hobby. Maybe the 1950s equivalent of Hot Pockets and computer keyboard clicking.


And what are they supposed to make us think of – before the elaborate backstory that is about to unfold?

A sad old lady who can only afford to shop at five and dime stores, eats unhealthy take-out, and spends her days home alone knitting.



Three paragraphs (“without a punchline”) –
F. Is there anywhere else in this story where the narrative looks backward for so long?


Don’t think so, though some may argue the entire book is devoid of a punchline.


Why do the authors do it here?

Part of the attraction of the L.R. [The Lord of the Rings] is, I think, due to the glimpses of a large history in the background: an attraction like that of viewing far off an unvisited island, or seeing the towers of a distant city gleaming in a sunlit mist.
-Letter #247


A Mixed Marriage gone bad? The Organization Man sells his soul? The Divorce from Hell?

Fëanor and Galadriel?


G. What standard story is this a spoof of?

Seems a pretty standard plotline for a Rock Hudson/Doris Day movie. Don’t worry. It always works out for them in the end no matter how rotten they are to each other.


Or perhaps more technically, can you name or discuss some of the more serious treatments of this story that the authors are referring to?

Street Scene (1929) or The Ice Man Cometh (1946).


Here Sorhed and Schlob are husband and wife; the Nozdrul are their nine sons.
H. Can we see these relations in the original story?


"It is said that their lords were men of Númenor who had fallen into dark wickedness; to them the Enemy had given rings of power, and he had devoured them: living ghosts they were become, terrible and evil. After his going they took Minas Ithil and dwelt there, and they filled it, and all the valley about, with decay.”
-The Forbidden Pool

But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dûr; and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow; for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness.
-Shelob’s Lair

He devours darkness, she vomits darkness. Seems a basis for a relationship. Worked for Mr. and Mrs. Jack Spratt.


“Ages ago…”, “The first hundred thousand years”, “For eons…”, “eternally cursing…”, “For ages…”
I. Why such extremes of time passage?


There’s the similarity to another happily married immortal couple whose idyllic marriage eventually went bad: Zeus and Hera. Supposedly they were happily married for eons until Zeus finally got bored and started philandering. She did not take it well.


The joke about “a dinner invitation with Sorhed’s ex” has always been the funniest part of this section for me. It cleverly picks up on both the note in the original narrative where Sauron cynically writes off the loss of a few orc-slaves to Shelob, and also the Ungol orcs’ jokes about the dangers of working with ‘her ladyship’.

There’s also 1950s horror TV host John Zacherle’s 1958 recording “Dinner With Drac”. On Side 1 the visitor gets eaten. Side 2 is a sanitized version that was deemed more appropriate for public broadcast on American Bandstand.


J. Are there other parts of this section today that so knowingly spoof Tolkien’s original?

I especially love the playing with words and meaning. Given Tolkien’s sly addition of “Wetwang” to the Canon, I really wonder how much of the language he would have objected to.


It’s inevitable – vocab break! What are the origins, meanings, and/or implications of:
K. Mazola,


From “maize” (Taíno word for “corn”) and “ola” (Gaelic word for “oil”). Corn oil is pretty much the cheapest oil there is.


Blanche,

A “Dame Blanche” (“White Lady”) in France (particularly Loth…aringen) inhabits a cave near a narrow place like a pass (like, say, Cirith Ungol), a ford, or a bridge. She accosts travelers who must dance with her or otherwise please her. If they do as she asks, she lets them pass safely. If not she might toss them off the side or summon cats, owls, hobgoblins, red dwarfs, etc. to torment them.

In Japan there is the Hashi Hime, or “Bridge Princess” (also can be translated as “Pretty Princess”), a jealous wife driven to such rage by her husband’s infidelities that a priest/god/demon/whatever-depending-on-the-story tells her how to transform herself into a vengeful spirit. Afterwards she haunts bridges (most famously the Uji Bridge in Kyoto) and accosts young lovers, threatening them with death unless they immediately break off their relationship. In Noh theater she is represented by a blood red mask with a blazing brazier on top of her head. (Subtle, eh?) In modern day Uji there is actually a shrine to her. Coincidentally, there’s a nearby shop that sells little "psychic shears" that you can offer with a prayer at the shrine and so sever a bad relationship.

BTW, here’s a court poem from the 12th century:’

Samushiro ya
matsu yo no aki no
kaze fukete
tsuki wo katashiku
uji no hashihime

(How cold!
waiting out the autumn’s weary night
deepening as the wind blows
she spreads out the moon’s light
the Princess of Uji Bridge.)

-Fujiwara no Teika

Or course it might refer to Blanche DuBois in Tennessee Williams’ play A Streetcar Named Desire (1947) that made unknown Marlon Brando a star. (Brando got the part primarily by giving a great reading, but I’m sure it didn’t hurt that he also borrowed car fare, went to Massachusetts, and performed some free home repairs for Williams.)


simply wasn’t trollish,

In the play Street Scene (1929) Rose isn’t considered Jewish enough for Sam.

There’s also the story The Troll’s Daughter in Andrew Lang’s The Pink Fairy Book (1897). A troll had bound several (nine?) kings to him. His daughter told our young hero how to free the kings from her father’s magic. He did, they married, and the kings made him their emperor. The end.

(BTW, I'm convinced Tolkien had a set of Lang's series of Fairy Books.)


converted three-room dungeon,

There was an acute housing shortage after WWII. In New York shady developers would convert commercial, warehouse, and/or industrial properties into “cheap” (but usually price-gouging) three-room apartments. Given the lack of environmental oversight of the times health issues from un-remediated conditions could occur.


ambitious hubby,

After WWII the United States and other nations were inundated with former soldiers who had undergone weeks of confidence building basic training, overcame months of adverse conditions, and survived untold numbers of enemy soldiers whose sole purpose in life was to kill them. The big question in their minds was what *couldn’t* they do!


climb to the top,

WWI seriously wounded caste-bound Western social systems. WWII finished them off. The notion of social mobility became widely accepted. There was no reason a person couldn’t own their own home, get promoted up the ladder, send their kids to college, and have their son become president. (The notion of their daughter becoming president took a bit longer to take hold.)


yanked his sons from medical school,

For some reason I’m reminded of the sons of Fëanor.


witch-works,

I’m thinking the wicket-works of World Wide Wickets in the 1961 musical How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying. The one question asked but never answered in book or play was what exactly a wicket was.


evil spells

Multi-Level Marketing mantras. Amway, Tupperware parties, and the Avon Lady led many a housewife into forcing her family and friends into buying several years' supplies worth of needless things. Pure evil.


daytime mallomar serials,

The word “mallomar” is a recombination of parts of the word “marshmallow”. In 1960 psychologist Walter Mischel began his famous Marshmallow Experiments at Harvard, but had to leave in 1962 because of the chaos fellow professor and LSD guru Timothy Leary brought to the department. Basically the marshmallow test is a test of patience. Daytime serials are also a test of patience because nothing ever tends to happen unless one if the actors gets killed off for asking for a raise.


“began to put on weight,”

Single women come home, see what’s in the fridge, then go to bed. Married women come home, see what’s in the bed, then go to the fridge.


mallomar repairman,

Husband (just home): "Has the iceman come yet?"
Wife (from upstairs): "No, but he's breathing hard."

Mallomars are supposedly delicate, being available only September through April because the seasonal heat would damage them. Many people would stockpile them for the summer.

BTW, in Disney’s 1953 cartoon “Father's Day Off", while Goofy is taking his wife's place at home for the day, the milkman, groceryman, and laundryman all give Goofy an absent-minded kiss on the lips as they make their deliveries.


compromising position,

Until “no fault” divorce laws of 1975, a marriage could not be dissolved unless one party was guilty of something, typically adultery. Of course such had to be proven in a court of law, so a spouse would have to hire a private investigator to follow the cheater around until they met with the “other man/woman”, burst in on them, take a photograph of the two in a compromising position, and get away before the photographer could be beaten to a pulp and/or killed. (Obviously timing was everything.) For couples wanting an amicable divorce it might require the hiring of a professional prostitute and a professional photographer and staging the event to get the “evidence“ to present to the court.


bowels of Sol Hurok,

Sol Hurok was a famous and influential impresario behind such artists as singer Marion Anderson (including her legendary Easter concert on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial), violinist Isaac Stern, and pianist Arthur Rubenstein. He also arranged the first two American tours of the Moscow Bolshoi Ballet. (First in 1959, then in 1962 right in the middle of the Cuban Missile Crisis.) His promotion of American minorities and Soviet artists did not make him popular with some people.


nurtured her pique,

An understatement any hobbit would be proud of.


bon-bons,

Wouldn’t mallomars be considered bon-bons?


spelunker,

Spelunking is a term coined sometime in the 1940s for “caving” or exploring caves. By the 1960s it was becoming a derogatory term among “cavers”. (A common saying in the hobby: "Cavers rescue spelunkers".) I suppose getting eaten by Schlob is a hazard for amateurs.


derisive trolack jokes,

“Trolack” would be an offensive term for a Trollish person. The early 1960s saw a large wave of Polish jokes in US media. It got so bad that by the late 1960s Polish-American organizations waged a continuous campaign to fight the offensive stereotypes regularly portrayed on The Tonight Show, Laugh-In, and other TV shows and media.


cutting off her lights?

In the 50s and 60s, since utility accounts would doubtless be in the husband’s name, typical revenge against a separated wife gaining possession of the house would involve cancelling utilities. Wives might have trouble coming up with the deposit required to open an account in their name and so have to live without water, electricity, gas, phone, insurance, etc. until they got a job and received their first paycheck, which might take a while.

Nowadays a court order granting a spouse possession of the house will often contain a clause forbidding the cancellation of utilities, insurance, etc. by the other spouse, and may even require the other spouse to keep up the payments. The final settlement might even require it indefinitely, as part of alimony or child support.


Thanks for leading! It's always fun going down Memory Lane!!

******************************************
"Hola! Gorbag! What are you doing up here? Had enough of war already?"
"Orders, you lubber. And what are you doing, Shagrat? Tired of lurking up there? Thinking of coming down to fight?"
"Orders to you. I'm in command of this pass. So speak civil. What's your report?"

"Everything's really great in Cirith Ungol,
All the way from here to down below.
We haven’t seen old Shelob though she’s seven ranga tall,
About as high as a spider oughta grow!

"There’s one thing that we found in Cirith Ungol,
We found it just a little while ago.
There’s a slime trail going all the way to Shelob’s dark abode.
We followed it and found a giant midget elf-lord in the road,
We fought him and prevailed and boy we really knocked him cold!
He’s out about as far as he can go!
He’s out about as far as he can go!"

-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings


(This post was edited by Darkstone on Oct 17 2014, 5:46pm)


Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Oct 17 2014, 10:17pm

Post #4 of 8 (2376 views)
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The big question for me is... [In reply to] Can't Post

 

What is Schlob's "yarn" really made of, because I don't think that's her own homespun and dyed silk? And how is she really any more sinister than that other famous knitter, Miss Marple, around whom so many people seem to drop like flies? Scary old spinsters all sit around knitting, and eating little pastrami and cucumber tea sandwiches, don't they?

**********************************


NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Oct 23 2014, 3:28am

Post #5 of 8 (2404 views)
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Yum, mallomars! [In reply to] Can't Post

*wipes chocolate off fingers before proceeding to type*

A. What is the joke about ‘a leisurely meal of apple cheeks and cauliflower ears’?
Looks like the guys have covered this one pretty well - but it goes along with the other "meals" of paired items mentioned in the text, such as "yaws and goiters" and "loaves and fishes".

B. Does the BotR version of the fortress of Minas Morgul – the company town Chikken Noodul – have anything in common with its original? Or, what is different? And how does it compare to … Serutanland?
Black chimneys and fell engines! Minas Morgul has but one tower, and it's a sickly pale color. "Fell engines" of course immediately reminds one of "Fell Beasts", although Chikken Noodul is noisy, whereas Minas Morgul is silent - deadly silent - until...
I do appreciate the contrasting soups, Minestrone and Chicken Noodle. Enough of either prevents the need for Serutan.

C. Did the authors skip anything that was worth making fun of?
They should have included the skinny-dipping scene in the Forbidden Swimming Pool.

D. What do you think? Or don’t you?
I usually don't, so here's my non-thoughts: this passage sets up an excellent foreboding, and hearkens back to Sam's magnificent understatement back when they were lost in the Emyn Muil: "Well, Master, we're in a fix, and no mistake."

“Old pastrami”, “rancid gherkins”, and “knitting needles”.
E. What do these terms mean? And what are they supposed to make us think of – before the elaborate backstory that is about to unfold?
Ever smell old pastrami? Worse than the mind-reeling stench of Shelob. And a sign of a careless housekeeper. Still trying to figure out how pickled veggies can go rancid...
And TORnfolk know what wondrous weapons knitting needles can be - now I wonder where Eowyn of Penns Woods' +5 Knitting Needle of Death has gotten to?

Three paragraphs (“without a punchline”) –
F. Is there anywhere else in this story where the narrative looks backward for so long? Why do the authors do it here?

What? The entire backstory is a "punchline", taking off on the backstory of Shelob, "bloated and grown fat"! Laugh

G. What standard story is this a spoof of? Or perhaps more technically, can you name or discuss some of the more serious treatments of this story that the authors are referring to?
It definitely ain't "My Three Sons"! It's your typical caught-with-the-milkman story.

Here Sorhed and Schlob are husband and wife; the Nozdrul are their nine sons.
H. Can we see these relations in the original story?

This is a sheer genius re-imagining. Sauron calling Shelob "his cat, though he owns her not", and the unknown origins of the Nazgul are here put to rest. A regular Addams Family until Morticia is caught with Fred Munster.

I. Why such extremes of time passage?
Well, considering that the bad guys in LotR are of unknown ancient ages...
.
It’s inevitable – vocab break! What are the origins, meanings, and/or implications of:
K. Mazola, Blanche, simply wasn’t trollish, converted three-room dungeon, ambitious hubby, climb to the top, yanked his sons from medical school, witch-works, evil spells, daytime mallomar serials, began to put on weight, mallomar repairman, compromising position, bowels of Sol Hurok, nurtured her pique, bon-bons, spelunker, derisive trolack jokes, cutting off her lights?

Hoo baby! Okay: Mazola - a brand of corn oil. In other words, fat.
Blanche: of course the Elvish version of a name would have to be given, and in this case it's a contradiction, since "blanche" means "white, pale" in French.
Wasn't trollish: ah, I see your Abie's Irish Rose mention there! Not Jewish enough, not Irish enough...
Converted three-room dungeon: very hippy thing to do, convert an area into a living space. But nine kids in three rooms makes for a crowd!
Ambitious hubby, climb to the top: How to Succeed in Necromancy Without Really Trying!
Yanked his sons: a standard way to get a family business going. The medical school was probably quite relieved.
Daytime mallomar serial: Mallomar is a reference to palantir, but although mallomars are somewhat round, the analogy is a bit of a stretch. Daytime serial, of course, refers to the addiction of soap operas.
Bowels of Sol Hurok: nice going, finding a name which has a similar sound to some of Tolkien's place-names ("Sol" for "Dol"). And the action takes places in the deepest, darkest, dankest place.
Bon-bons: the orc "dainties" Sauron allowed "his cat" to enjoy!

(Sorry to be responding a bit late! Love the "family show" references. What's that one with Elizabeth Taylor?)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"





squire
Half-elven


Nov 3 2014, 1:40am

Post #6 of 8 (2337 views)
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Natures spelled backwards is ... what Mama serves to cure the cold or whatever ails you. [In reply to] Can't Post

And how does [Chikken Noodul] compare to … Serutanland? [Darkstone:] Serutan was also advertised heavily on the radio, especially on shows with older audiences, with the tagline “Serutan is ‘natures’ spelled backwards”. Serutan was marketed as the one healthy laxative with all natural ingredients as opposed to all those others that had harmful (probably) artificial ingredients. As for Chikken Noodul, of course nothing’s healthier than chicken soup, except maybe chicken noodle soup. Ah, the power of advertising!

Wow, what a good point! In the BotR version of Book 3, we have a laxative binary: the health-food vegetarianism of the Vee-Ates, vs. Serutan which aspires to replace natural roughage with a heavily marketed consumer product. So non-natural foods are ‘evil’ in BotR, we think.

But no! in their spoof of Book 4, the authors switch metaphors at their convenience. Now the binary of Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul is mined simply for near-puns: Minas Troney (i.e., minestrone, the Italian vegetable soup) contrasts with Chikken Noodul (i.e., chicken noodle, the original ‘health food’ soup for colds and whatever else ails one. The only jokes are the re-use of Tolkien’s characteristic orthography: Minas in Minas Tirith and Minas Troney; the -ul ending and doubled k are takeoffs on his evil words like Morgul and Kirith Ungol. But from a ‘natural’ vs. ‘artificial’ point of view, the cities are equal; what makes the latter place ‘evil’ in the parody is how it is described as a soulless factory town. Whereas Serutanland is, of course, a spoof on Disneyland and Las Vegas, with Serutan playing the role of the evil mogul who trades in popular fantasy simply to make money and gain power.

I haven't the time to comment on the rest of your post, but as usual I'm in awe of the breadth of your observations. Thanks so much for letting us in on it all!



squire online:
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squire
Half-elven


Nov 3 2014, 1:47am

Post #7 of 8 (2373 views)
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"...until Morticia is caught with Fred Munster." [In reply to] Can't Post

What an image! And totally in keeping with the vibe of this chapter. The 60's 'monster sitcom' phenomenon was definitely a comment by a knowing Hollywood on why monster films were such a big hit in the 50s: they weren't just about the A-bomb, as film scholars everywhere have long since uncovered. They were also about the horror of the unreconstructed nuclear (get it?) family that was such an iconic part of the post-war American fantasy culture.

As with Darkstone, I don't have time to respond further, but thanks for all the great comments and elaborations on what is .... sadly .... a discussion series that is losing steam just as its source does about this time in the book.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


sador
Half-elven


Dec 8 2014, 1:48pm

Post #8 of 8 (2352 views)
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Lo, it is I. [In reply to] Can't Post

Late and dispirited, having gone through this thread for the third time and found nothing real to contribute after Darkstone and dernwyn's answers. Keep up the good work.

 
 

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