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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Oct 21 2014, 12:21pm
Post #1 of 19
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Why doesn't Faramir help Frodo?
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When Frodo, Sam and Gollum part from Faramir, he and his men fill the hobbits' packs and give each of them staves. Faramir knows about Frodo's burden and the danger before them and he does not trust Gollum.
So why does he willingly let Frodo leave so unprepared? Could he not have sent a few men to go with, and protect Frodo? He effectively sends Frodo on a suicide mission with little more than some food and sticks, and he doesn't seem to show any regret or guilt.
I realise their strength was in stealth, but if Elrond thought that nine could do it, then a couple of men aren't going to give them away. I just find it strange that he's both warning Frodo against the path and yet doing nothing to stop him or help him on his way.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 21 2014, 2:28pm
Post #2 of 19
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Perhaps Faramir realized that the temptation of the Ring was a risk too big to take, no matter how much he trusted his own men. His own responsibilities precluded his accompanying Frodo and Sam himself.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Oct 21 2014, 4:21pm
Post #3 of 19
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I think one could also ask why Gildor didn't send Elves to accompany Frodo to Rivendell when he knew the Black Riders were pursuing him.
Elrond could have sent Glorfindel and other heroes with the Fellowship and still maintained the party's stealth.
Galadriel could have spared a contingent of Lorien Elves to at least get the Fellowship to the Mordor borders, or all the way to the Crack of Doom, since she knew better than most what was at stake.
I believe the reason why, like Faramir, they didn't all supply guards was because the races of Middle-earth were provincial and looked primarily after their own concerns (like the Shire-folk do), and they felt limited responsibility to get involved in other races' and other country's issues. (Another reason that Eagles don't show up more often in non-Eagle business. The list goes on.)
I suppose Bombadil was the exception in getting the hobbits as far as Bree, but only after leaving them disastrously on their own. He had no intention of getting them to Rivendell, and he had to know that they'd need help to get there.
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Oct 21 2014, 7:24pm
Post #4 of 19
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If I recall correctly, Faramir also broke the law by letting Frodo, Sam and Gollum leave (this might be conflating movie with books, however). At any rate, Faramir was duty-bound to bring the ring back to Gondor, but his judgment was wise in not doing so. Also, as Otaku points out, he probably didn't trust himself or his men around the ring; he realized what had happened to his brother, and he had other duties to undertake as well.
Rather than a criticism of Faramir, it shows his wisdom. Sometimes we ask why people didn't help Frodo along the way, but does that really happen in real life? Do people hold our hands the entire time and guide us step-by-step in every endeavor we take. Part of the journey is how the person learns from it and if everybody just intervenes, then what is the use of the journey in the first place.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Oct 21 2014, 7:30pm
Post #5 of 19
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1. Faramir's own force was desperately thin, and virtually the only forward protection for Minas Tirith. To pull some men off to go with Frodo would have weakened his force further. He is already violating orders by letting F&S pass through Gondorian territory; to weaken his force further would be a much more serious breach of orders.
2. It is not clear that Elrond had any expectation of the Nine going together all the way to Mordor. On the contrary, Boromir clearly intended to go to Gondor, and Aragorn with him. How the remainder would be deployed or function was left to "chance" (as they call it in Middle Earth).
3. Faramir respected the value of stealth on the mission. Getting through a narrow passage like Cirith Ungol undetected would be increasingly improbable the more individuals are involved.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Oct 21 2014, 7:48pm
Post #6 of 19
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Faramir does not send Frodo on a “suicide mission”. He was sent on this quest months earlier and Faramir simply allows Frodo to continue with the knowledge that those of a superior standing than himself allowed this journey to begin. Faramir did what he could even though he broke his orders by allowing Frodo to continue. To me he shows much regret and sorrow at Frodo’s plight.
As Faramir states: We of Gondor do not ever pass east of the Road in these days, and none of us younger men has ever done so… To send a couple of men along, who knew no more of the Mts. of Shadow than did Frodo (or Faramir) would not only again break his military orders but would be of no avail as you say “their strength was in stealth”.
I believe Faramir in his indisputable wisdom did what was militarily correct (his orders were to harry the Harad Road and keep Ithilien clean), and astutely incorrect in provisioning Frodo and allowing him to be on his way. (And he paid a heavy price for this compassion when he next reported to Denethor!)
He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.
-Gandalf
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Oct 22 2014, 2:15am
Post #7 of 19
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Faramir pronounced a 'doom' (judgement) that gave the Hobbits freedom of Gondor and its protection for a year and a day.
This doom shall stand for a year and a day, and then cease, unless you shall before that term come to Minas Tirith and present yourself to the Lord and Steward...
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Oct 22 2014, 2:20am
Post #8 of 19
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In addition to the other excellent answers...
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I do believe that Faramir was already planning to fall back from Ithilien to Osgilliath. He was in a seriously compromised military position with few men and increasing danger. His duty was to Gondor and any Men he sent forward would betray that duty. It was Frodo's Quest and I think he knew that.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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a.s.
Valinor
Oct 22 2014, 3:39am
Post #9 of 19
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Lest peril perchance waylay me
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First, I think, Faramir clearly states that neither he nor any of the "younger men" of Gondor now know the ways over the mountains into Mordor, nor any of the paths inside Mordor, and can't serve as guides of any kind. Their presence with the smaller hobbits could not help and would only serve to endanger them further.
Second, Faramir himself hints that closer exposure to the Ring might tempt even him too far: "I do not wish to see it, or touch it, or know more of it than I know...lest peril perchance waylay me and I fall lower in the test than Frodo son of Drogo." He tells Frodo this after frankly admiring Frodo's ability to "keep it hid and not to use it". Faramir is able to turn aside from the Ring at this point because he is clearheaded and able to see the folly of trying to claim the Ring, as well as knowing that the Ring's journey to Mt. Doom is not his appointed task. He recognizes, perhaps, that should he try that task, he would be too sorely tempted himself. He can't place himself or his men in such temptation, and to send a small party of men with Frodo into Mordor, he would have to explain the hopeless journey to them, with the knowledge that such understanding would be dangerous to them all.
Third, and most importantly to my thinking, Faramir recognizes that he is not part of Frodo's quest, he is himself under orders he considers himself bound to. "In the morning we must each go swiftly on the ways appointed to us".
a.s.
"an seileachan"
(This post was edited by a.s. on Oct 22 2014, 3:40am)
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Oct 22 2014, 12:22pm
Post #10 of 19
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These are all excellent answers, thankyou!
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It bugged me a little, but I can more than justify it in my head now 
I particularly favour the thought that Faramir had a small force and a big responsibility and that sending men away, or going away himself, would be casting aside his duties and increasing Gondor's vulnerability. But all the other reasons are equally valid.
Thanks again for the answers so far, I really enjoyed reading them and thinking about it. Faramir is a really interesting character in the book, much more so than in the film IMO.
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dreamflower
Lorien
Oct 25 2014, 12:14am
Post #11 of 19
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I agree with most of the answers given above: Faramir's primary responsibility was to Gondor and he pushed the limits in giving what help he could.
But say he did decide to send a Ranger or two along with Frodo and Sam. Aside from the fact that those would know no more of the terrain than the hobbits, they might try to take over the mission and overrule Frodo's judgment. They certainly would not have listened to Gollum.
Plus, what would Faramir tell them about why they were sent off on a mission with no authority? I can't see him lying to them, and the truth would be dangerous.
I've often wondered what Faramir's men thought of his breaking the rules in allowing the three prisoners their freedom. (My headcanon is that the men guessed the hobbits were on a secret spy mission for Denethor; way off base, off course, but a logical conclusion giving what little info they had to go on.)
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Oct 27 2014, 9:45am
Post #12 of 19
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Would be food for Shelob one suspects given the way in which Tolkien wrote the tale!
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dreamflower
Lorien
Oct 27 2014, 12:59pm
Post #13 of 19
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But I think things would have gone worse: the men would have heard the rumors of Cirith Ungol and refused to go that way. They would have argued with Gollum and with Frodo and perhaps insisted on going some other way that would have been even worse and resulted in all of them getting caught. Or the Ring would have done its best to attract their attention and they would have fought over it, likely killing Frodo and Sam and fighting with each other as well.
Ending up as Shelob fodder would probably have been a best case scenario.
Faramir was a wise man.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Oct 27 2014, 4:23pm
Post #14 of 19
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No doubt they would have trusted their commander...
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I don't know if they really tried to rationalise it. These men were rank-and-file soldiers and in many cases they are (or are represented to be) carrying out orders without a single thought or question. In many cases armies are portrayed as controlled by a strategist that makes all of the decisions, and the foot soldiers move wherever they are told, having (at best) complete confidence or (at worst) brain-washed discipline to obey their general. Looking on the more positive side, Id say that given the amount of love and loyalty that Faramir inspired in his men, I think that might have helped them on-- even if it meant charging into a certain doom.
There can be no certainty here, however, I do think that the element of 'class' , 'social standing' and total submission 'noble authority' are present in LotR, and have to be accounted for. No doubt many today would balk if given such an order by our 'betters' but there was a time when, (and are those in the world still) that wouldn't dare cross their superiors (real or imagined).
I don't mean to sound either elitist or to berate those who live in a part of the world with a more established system of nobility, but I do realise that it can appear so. Because that is the case, I also apologise to those who live in a more egalitarian part of the world who might be offended. However, that does not change the fact that such times and attitudes did exist.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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dreamflower
Lorien
Oct 27 2014, 7:59pm
Post #15 of 19
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I agree to a certain extent...
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If these were Boromir's men, I am certain you'd have been right. Boromir was popular, but he was much more a "soldier's soldier". If they had been the men of most other Gondorian captains besides Faramir, I'd not doubt it for a moment that unquestioning obedience would have been expected and given.
But somehow, Faramir struck me as the sort of captain who'd encourage a certain amount of independent thought in his men. Yet he was well-loved by his men. I could see a bit of speculation in the ranks: why would Faramir disobey standing orders? Yet because he was well-loved, there would also be a tendency to believe that he could do no wrong. A logical conclusion would be that he disobeyed a standing order in order to obey a secret order, brought by these odd creatures who had been fetched to Gondor by Boromir. Obviously then the Steward had something up his sleeve. This would be reinforced by Faramir and the hobbits having had some secretive conversation out of earshot of his men. Such a conclusion would satisfy men of honor, such as I think men commanded by Faramir would be. The end result would be the same: obedience to their captain at all costs, but not unquestioning obedience.
I did a fanfic about the encounter with the hobbits from Mablung's POV: Encounter in Ithilien
I'm rather a fan of book!Faramir, as you may guess.
(This post was edited by dreamflower on Oct 27 2014, 8:00pm)
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FrogmortonJustice65
Lorien
Oct 30 2014, 1:27am
Post #16 of 19
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Faramir seems cognizant of the Ring's powers of seduction/temptation.
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As such, he had to be aware of the dangers of men being exposed to its powers (especially when he learned the details of Boromir's betrayal, which I believe he did in the book). The prospect of the Ring's temptation being overwhelming must've been in the back of his mind and counseled him against creating a second fellowship to accompany Frodo, Sam and Gollum.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Nov 2 2014, 1:28am
Post #17 of 19
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The very fact that we can and do speculate on the motives of literary characters as if they were real personages is a testament to Tolkien's genius!! I'm sure there is no real answer beyond the text or Tolkien's words on the matter, but it is fun to speculate. I love Book-Faramir too!
Here is a bit of a discussion we had on him earlier if you care to look at it.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Grand Bob
The Shire
Nov 14 2014, 11:35pm
Post #18 of 19
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I enjoyed reading the posts on this topic. My take on this is that Tolkien places Faramir almost in reverence as a character of high morals and perception. Therefore, Faramir would most likely be able to see the bigger picture and know that "there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker", as Gandalf states to Frodo in "The Shadow of the Past". If that were the case, he would trust to the Middle-earth equivalent of faith, realizing that aiding the quest with strength of arms or additional personnel would be doomed to failure, as Elrond was also aware. Note also that Faramir was one of the very few characters uncorrupted by the Ring. Tolkien, who was very careful to avoid religious references in the story, allowed Faramir to demonstrate one of the very few displays of reverence in Lord of the Rings (from The Window on the West):
"Before they ate, Faramir and all his men turned and faced west in a moment of silence... 'So we always do,' he said as they sat down: we look towards Numenor that was, and beyond to Elvenhome that is, and to that which is beyond Elvenhome and will ever be.' "
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Beleg Strongbow Cuthalion
Bree
Apr 8 2015, 8:16pm
Post #19 of 19
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If you're talking about the books....
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Faramir at first doesn't help Frodo and Sam because he is concerned about his father's two cents, so to speak. Faramir knew that he was not at all high in Denethor's favour as it was, and that it would raise him a little to bring Denethor the Ring, which was what Denethor really really wanted. But Faramir also wisely knew that if he did acquire the Ring somehow from frodo, he would become tempted and not want to give the Ring to his father. So why take it in the first place? Even to please his dad? It would most likely cost him his life, strong will or not.
In answer to your other question, about Faramir not sending men to guide/protect Faramir, I believe that Faramir was suffering from a great lack of men already. It wasn't as though he could spare even a couple to help Frodo. And he wouldn't really have any need to feel guilt or regret at not helping him more than he did. He wasn't concerned with Frodo's burden besides the general one of being a person of Middle-earth and the downfall of Middle-earth would have affected him as well.
You raise very good points!
~"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” ― Gandalf the Grey~
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