|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sebastian the Hedgehog
Rivendell
Oct 4 2014, 5:15am
Post #1 of 18
(2335 views)
Shortcut
|
Why isn't Sauron invisible?
|
Can't Post
|
|
I was watching FOTR tonight with my roommate, and in the prologue when Sauron is in battle he asked why he wasn't invisible, since he was wearing the One Ring. And I had never thought of that before and didn't know how to answer! I told him that maybe it's because Sauron has the only power over the One, so he can control whether or not he becomes invisible. Is there an actual answer to this question that I can't think of right now? If not, what are your guys' thoughts? Thanks!
|
|
|
Glassary
Rivendell
Oct 4 2014, 12:32pm
Post #2 of 18
(1977 views)
Shortcut
|
With all the times I've watched I've never thought about Sauron being invisible. Do like your theory that he can do this at his will as it's his ring.
(This post was edited by Glassary on Oct 4 2014, 12:32pm)
|
|
|
Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Oct 4 2014, 11:48pm
Post #3 of 18
(2038 views)
Shortcut
|
there are two worlds: the mortal/visible plane, and the spiritual/invisible plane. When a mortal, such as a hobbit, wears the Ring, it pulls him partly out of the mortal/physical plane and into the spirit world, so that to the wearer the mortal world seems dim but the things that inhabit the spirit world become visible, such as the nazgul being revealed on Weathertop. But not all beings are mortal. The Elves, for instance have power in both worlds, which is why when Frodo is stabbed by the Nazgul blade and is "becoming a wraith" he sees the Elves (Glorfindel in the book, Arwen in the movie) as glowing while others are still dim figures. Gandalf says he is seeing them as they are on the other side. The Nazgul, being Men who wear the Nine rings, have been taken completely captive into the other plane and are only visible to those who are also on that plane. Assuming that the Ring, when it makes someone invisible, is taking someone who normally inhabits the mortal plane and moving them into the wraith/spirit world, then those with power in both worlds would not necessarily be made invisible, because they already are in both planes at once. Sauron is a Maia (the same sort of spirit as Gandalf, only stronger) and since he created the Ring and it takes its power from him, he would control it rather than it controlling him. Of the "good guys" who hold the Ring in the story, only Tom Bombadil can put it on and not be made invisible, and we know that he seems to have a sort of mastery over things. We do not know how it would have affected others - for instance Gandalf or Galadriel. But both of them feared to touch it because the temptation to use it would be too much, which implies that they felt they could have controlled it though it would have corrupted them. They may well have remained visible while wearing it as well. That's how I've always understood it, anyway. Others may have a different take.
Silverlode Want a LOTR Anniversary footer of your own? Get one here! "Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."
|
|
|
Loresilme
Valinor
Oct 6 2014, 1:39pm
Post #5 of 18
(1857 views)
Shortcut
|
This was so interesting and clearly explained. Thank you, Silverlode!
|
|
|
Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Oct 7 2014, 1:07am
Post #6 of 18
(1857 views)
Shortcut
|
In addition to Silverlode's masterful answer...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
There is also this quote: "Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others." So the Ring did what it could with the limited power of the Hobbits. In comparison to the power of Sauron and his use, invisibility is a simple parlour trick. There is also the idea that the power conferred was one the bearer desired, or had natively. Note on Hobbits: "There is little or no magic about them, except the ordinary everyday sort which helps them to disappear quietly and quickly when large stupid folk like you and me come blundering along, making a noise like elephants which they can hear a mile off." So perhaps it manifested it's power in that form because Bilbo 'wanted' to disappear, or because he was so good at it.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
|
|
|
ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Oct 10 2014, 12:53am
Post #7 of 18
(1798 views)
Shortcut
|
invisibility was specifically conferred by Sauron into the rings except for of course the three he never touched
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
the elves never intended and/or wanted any of the rings to make the wearer invisible
|
|
|
Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Oct 13 2014, 3:18pm
Post #8 of 18
(1735 views)
Shortcut
|
Indeed, details of how the rings fundamentally operated were sketchy. We only see a few instances of how the rings were used. I only meant to say that in the abscence of anything resembling an operator's guide, Gandalf's words might imply that the One -- a thing of terribly potent power-- might have used only a fraction with the Hobbits. My hypothesis is that with a user of greater power, invisibility becomes a minor power in comparison to the others they could possibly wield. P.S. Do you know where it says that Sauron intentionally conferred the power of invisibility to the Ring? The elves made the other 16 (9 for Men and 7 for Dwarves), so did he add something to them after he had seized them?
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
|
|
|
ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Oct 16 2014, 12:41am
Post #9 of 18
(1744 views)
Shortcut
|
I recently found the quote so hopefully I can again. It is also a misconception that the elves made the rings for anyone but themselves. They never intended to hand them over to men or dwarves. Sauron did that. As Gandalf says the rings are perilous for mortals.
|
|
|
Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Oct 19 2014, 2:36am
Post #10 of 18
(1681 views)
Shortcut
|
The rings were all of Elf-make. Essays and experiments in the craft of Ring-making. I was not clear. Sorry! I do find it strange though that the other rings would confer invisibility. Why would an Elven smith want that? Clandestine plan to sneak into Aman?
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
|
|
|
ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Oct 19 2014, 10:12am
Post #11 of 18
(1685 views)
Shortcut
|
no, in letters it clearly states that
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
invisibility was purely Saurons doing without the knowledge of the elves, and the Three did not confer invisibility at all to anyone or anything.
|
|
|
FoundEntwife
Rivendell
Oct 19 2014, 6:11pm
Post #12 of 18
(1676 views)
Shortcut
|
I would only add that during the battle during that prologue Sauron was defeated and because of his defeat, he lost some of his power. I presume the power to appear in corporeal form. I could be wrong on that, though.
This tale grew in the telling. . . http://pencilword.blogspot.com
|
|
|
ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Oct 19 2014, 11:53pm
Post #13 of 18
(1676 views)
Shortcut
|
simply put he was killed, his body and soul separated, no particular loss of any power relating to being able to form a body
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Tolkien wrote about some inherent loss of natural power with each death and subsequent rebuilding, that is why the rehousing into a body after his death at the end of the Second Age on the slopes of Mt Doom took so long compared to other times he had rebuilt after death.
|
|
|
delius82
Rivendell
Oct 20 2014, 11:57pm
Post #14 of 18
(1646 views)
Shortcut
|
Who were the three Elven Ring-Bearers?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Their names if you know? Thanks!
|
|
|
Cirashala
Valinor
Oct 21 2014, 12:02am
Post #15 of 18
(1653 views)
Shortcut
|
Originally, Gil-Galad, Galadriel, and Cirdan. Cirdan passed his onto Gandalf when he came to Middle-earth from Aman (Valinor) perceiving that he would need it. Gil-Galad fell at the battle of the Last Alliance, after passing his onto Elrond, his herald. So by the time they went back to Aman at the end of LOTR, the three were held by Gandalf, Galadriel, and Elrond
|
|
|
ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Oct 21 2014, 4:46am
Post #16 of 18
(1647 views)
Shortcut
|
If memory serves, strangely enough Gil Galad had 2 rings to start with in a least one iteration of the history
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
whether the second one was given to Galadriel or Cirdan I cannot remember.
|
|
|
sador
Half-elven
Oct 21 2014, 5:18am
Post #17 of 18
(1650 views)
Shortcut
|
Celebrimbor sent him two just before Eregion was overrun.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
And these two ended up in Elrond and Cirdan's hands; Galadriel had her own from the beginning. My guess is that Celebrimbor intended to keep Narya for himself, but sent it away to safety. This seems the most logical scenario - but I do not remember Tolkien witing anything to either support or contradict this assumption.
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Oct 21 2014, 1:01pm
Post #18 of 18
(1736 views)
Shortcut
|
I think this is true according to Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn (that Celebrimbor sent two of the three to Lindon before Sauron came with war), but in this text the idea was to get the Three out of Eregion, and Galadriel was already in Lothlorien, being ousted from Eregion as its former founder and former ruler (founder and ruler of Eregion with Celeborn). I contend/suggest/annoy that Galadriel as co-founder/co-ruler of Eregion was rejected by Tolkien however: I think for the second edition of The Lord of the Rings Tolkien made Celebrimbor a Feanorean, and ruler of Eregion from the start, arguably leaving Galadriel in Eregion (now she will not be ousted from rule by the Mirdain, one would think, but she is said to have passed to Eregion in RGEO, published by JRRT in 1967, in any event) when Sauron came with war... or possibly she too went with all three rings to Lindon before Sauron destroyed Eregion? If Tolkien replaced Galadriel and Celeborn with Celebrimbor, now a Feanorean, as ruler, this would arguably solve why Galadriel, as ruler, especially if she doubted Annatar, yet seemingly left him to influence the Mirdain to take control of Eregion (also compare to Gil-galad and Elrond rejecting that 'Annatar' guy). The text involved is complicated, but there is at least one later note in which Celeborn goes to Lorien after Sauron destroys Eregion (I assume he escaped through Moria or over the mountains or something -- I can't recall if this is described), and later rejoins up with Galadriel in Lindon -- while a competing text tells that both Galadriel and Celeborn went to Lorien at this time. The Lindon reference doesn't really note how and when Galadriel got there! But in any case Galadriel doesn't seem to be already waiting in Lothlorien when Celebrimbor comes to her (as in Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn), thus getting Nenya out of Eregion -- again, as in this conception she herself was already out of Eregion. That said, Galadriel must have been given Nenya at some point If I recall correctly Appendix B (Tale of Years Second Age) states that the Three are hidden but doesn't elaborate beyond what is noted in the 'introduction' to the Tale of Years for the Third Age. For myself I think Tolkien was still working things out here, as in another draft he also introduces a(n arguable) contradiction with Appendix B in one of his histories of how the Three passed to their ultimate bearers. In short some of the history here still seems a bit fluid and 'drafty' in my opinion.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Oct 21 2014, 1:16pm)
|
|
|
|
|