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NateGate
Rivendell
Oct 20 2014, 7:00pm
Post #1 of 28
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BOT5A Orc Army Size Speculations.....
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So just doing a little research, the new WB synopsis for BOT5A says that Sauron sends forth "legions". In DOS, Gandalf also confirms the importance of this word by saying that Azog is "a commander of legions". Well, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/...Middle-earth_warfare a legion is comprised of 5k-10k men. At Helm's Deep, there were about "10,000 strong at least". So I think it's fair to say BOT5A will feature an orc army of equal or more probably GREATER size than that of Helm's Deep. Well, I'm happy, how about you?
P.S. Am I the only one who would like to see one of the great battles of the Silmarillion? Those were the big boys of Tolkein's world, apparently each side was at least 1,000,000-2,000,000 strong....that would have been epic. Not to mention a load crap load of Balrogs and Dragon's so large that Smaug would be a fly in comparison.
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Jim
Rivendell
Oct 20 2014, 7:08pm
Post #2 of 28
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The Battle of the Five Armies should be around on the same scale as Helm's Deep. In no way should this battle come across on screen as being bigger or better than Pelennor Fields since the Pelennor was THE battle of the 3rd age.
I'm not trying to say The Battle of the Five Armies is insignificant, far from it but it's significance should be kept in the context of the whole story.
(This post was edited by Jim on Oct 20 2014, 7:09pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Oct 20 2014, 7:30pm
Post #3 of 28
(754 views)
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Ha I wouldn't be very sure that Jackson
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Is a reader of "Mythlore", which seems to be the sole source for what I would think are rather dubious assumptions in the wiki.
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor
Oct 20 2014, 7:37pm
Post #4 of 28
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Well... I see it in between and something totally different
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Since it's far more "colourful" with all it's different armies and people involved. Helms Deep was a typical siege battle just like the battle of Minas Tirith. The Battle of Five Armies on the other hand is something different. Yes I believe that the heroes try to take cover inside Dale or Erebor but in the end it's an open battlefield with different high- and lowgrounds. We'll also have an air battle which was only featured in a small scale during the Battle of the Black Gate.
Armies:
Woodland Realm: Elves
Laketown: Men
Erebor/Iron Hills: Dwarves
Others: Eagles, Hobbit, Istari, Beorninger
Gundabad/Dol Guldur/Moria: Orcs, (Goblins), Wargs, Trolls, Battle-beasts, Bats
Battlegrounds:
Erebor (caverns)
Erebor (mountain)
Dale (ruin of a fortress)
Desolation of Smaug (dry land)
Frozen River
Air
I think it's one of the most interesting battles we've seen on screen. There won't be 200.000 Orcs like in ROTK but I guess everythink between 10.000-25.000 is possible... just like Saurons army he sent torwards Aragorn, Gandalf and Co at the end of ROTK at the Black Gate.
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 20 2014, 8:05pm
Post #5 of 28
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I'm imagining an Orc-army of 10,000 to 15,000 fighters, so legions sounds about right.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Bishop
Gondor
Oct 20 2014, 8:08pm
Post #6 of 28
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I expect everything to be as big as Jackson is able to make it
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If there's one thing we can say about Jackson, he certainly does like to push the envelope when it comes to scale. When you look at an image like this you do have to wonder what the intent is. I certainly don't think it's going to be the same scale as Helm's deep.
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SafeUnderHill
Rohan
Oct 20 2014, 8:11pm
Post #7 of 28
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The Battle of the Five Armies should be around on the same scale as Helm's Deep. In no way should this battle come across on screen as being bigger or better than Pelennor Fields since the Pelennor was THE battle of the 3rd age.
I'm not trying to say The Battle of the Five Armies is insignificant, far from it but it's significance should be kept in the context of the whole story.
These are adaptations that aren't always faithful. They'll do what ever looks best and seems most appropriate for the scenes they are making.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Oct 20 2014, 8:56pm
Post #8 of 28
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The only number Tolkien wrote was..700 Archers brought by...
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Thranny!
so it seems from what
we have seen of the Archers
That number looks right.
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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NateGate
Rivendell
Oct 20 2014, 9:03pm
Post #9 of 28
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I'm still thinking that Peter will go just a little bigger than Helm's Deep, but not much. I mean, it would be awesome if he went absolute GIANT scale, like bigger than Pelennor Fields, and considering his comments about this being "the biggest onscreen battle in the history of filmmaking" I think we certainly should consider the possibility. But realistically speaking, I think he might keep it smaller, the very fact that the area around Dale and the façade of Erebor is small means that the area of the battlefield is limited and therefore the size of the army itself. Pelennor fields gave Jackson a vast, flat space to work with, and thus TONS of room to create a huge army. In this case though, space is an issue, the area between the front of Erebor and Dale is sort of a valley surrounded by mountains which acts as a natural battle containment, unless of course Jackson plans to go literal on the goblins "scaling the mountain" quote from the book and take the battle full scale surrounding the ENTIRE mountain, that would be insane....considering that the film is literally ABOUT a single battle, I'm thinking that it may even last so long as to bring the fight into the mountain itself, imagine orcs battling on the bridges and walls within Erebor...
(This post was edited by NateGate on Oct 20 2014, 9:05pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Oct 20 2014, 9:17pm
Post #10 of 28
(588 views)
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Than Pelennor, according to Jacson in Total Film.
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MorgolKing
Rivendell
Oct 20 2014, 9:24pm
Post #11 of 28
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I'm surprised, everything indicated it would be bigger. Would you mind providing the actual quote?
Than Pelennor, according to Jacson in Total Film.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Oct 20 2014, 9:34pm
Post #12 of 28
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Despite the necessarily enormous scale, Jackson’s not going for a ‘bigger is better’ approach when it comes to comparisons with The Return Of The King’s legendary skirmish. “I’m sure, in numbers, it’s not going to be bigger than the Pelennor Fields battle,” explains Jackson. “It’s not the intention to make it bigger.”
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 20 2014, 10:33pm
Post #13 of 28
(538 views)
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That's not quite right, Bomby.
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Tolkien gave several figures.
On the side of the Free Peoples:
- 1000 Wood-elf archers plus another 1000+ of spearman.
- 500+ Dwarves from the Iron Hills with Dain.
- An unspecified number of Lake-men (probably less than 500).
- Thorin's 13 Dwarves.
- 1 Wizard (Gandalf).
- 1 Hobbit (Bilbo).
- 1 Skin-changer (Beorn in bear-shape).
- An unspecified number of Great Eagles.
On the side of the Orcs:
- Legions of Orcs, Wargs and wild wolves (the Free Peoples were badly outnumbered).
- Unnumbered horde of huge bats.
So as many as 3000 combined Men, Elves and Dwarves versus 10,000 or more Orcs, Wargs, etc.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 20 2014, 10:40pm)
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Remus
Lorien
Oct 20 2014, 10:45pm
Post #14 of 28
(538 views)
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Saurons army at the Black Gate
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was more than just Helms Deep numbers 10.000. It was at least 200.000 like the army he sent forth to Minas Tirith. I remember in Weapons & Warfare movie book they stated it was 200.000-500.000.
And you clearly see when the gate opens. That is not 10.000 orcs.  It's HUGE.
I wanna see a scene where we see Sauron walking the steps INSIDE of Bara-Dur and taking his seat upon his dark throne and summoning the eye, looking into the camera and then BAM! THE END.
-My thoughts on the best ending scene/post credit scene on TABA.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Oct 20 2014, 11:27pm
Post #15 of 28
(501 views)
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Right After writing that ...knew is was a Mistake...
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Went to Ck my copy of Karen's
"Atlas of MiddleEARTH", but had to leave, and didn't post a retraction...
Sorry
Thank you once again...O-S
you are a GREAT ASSET here...
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Oct 20 2014, 11:36pm
Post #16 of 28
(487 views)
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I think some things in these films are designed to be bigger and/or more excessive than similar scenes in LotR, e.g. Legolas jumping on people's heads and no doubt riding on bats, etc. It's because this is what is considered to be 'fun' by some people. I'm sure the battle will be made titanic, unfortunately.
The Battle of the Five Armies should be around on the same scale as Helm's Deep. In no way should this battle come across on screen as being bigger or better than Pelennor Fields since the Pelennor was THE battle of the 3rd age.
I'm not trying to say The Battle of the Five Armies is insignificant, far from it but it's significance should be kept in the context of the whole story.
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Gandy
Bree
Oct 20 2014, 11:48pm
Post #17 of 28
(484 views)
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Tolkien gave several figures.
On the side of the Free Peoples:
- 1000 Wood-elf archers plus another 1000+ of spearman.
- 500+ Dwarves from the Iron Hills with Dain.
- An unspecified number of Lake-men (probably less than 500).
- Thorin's 13 Dwarves.
- 1 Wizard (Gandalf).
- 1 Hobbit (Bilbo).
- 1 Skin-changer (Beorn in bear-shape).
- An unspecified number of Great Eagles.
On the side of the Orcs:
- Legions of Orcs, Wargs and wild wolves (the Free Peoples were badly outnumbered).
- Unnumbered horde of huge bats.
So as many as 3000 combined Men, Elves and Dwarves versus 10,000 or more Orcs, Wargs, etc.
__________________________________________________________
Gotta add another item to that list: 1 horribly inappropriate and terribly animated CG Legolas surfing on something. Probably multiple somethings. Wouldn't surprise me if PJ has him surf down the entire height of The Lonely Mountain on the backs of orcs.
If deaths and music come together powerfully, that will make it all forgiven.
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Moahunter
Rohan
Oct 21 2014, 12:12am
Post #18 of 28
(483 views)
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"Legions of Orcs, Wargs and wild wolves"
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I can't find Tolkien's use of the term "legions" in TH.
He does say "vast host of Goblins" and "host of Wargs" , and this rather indeterminate number seems to have transmogrified into "legion" and is now being interpreted in its original Roman army sense.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Oct 21 2014, 12:39am
Post #19 of 28
(466 views)
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Sure! it is an INTERNATIONAL "MODERN World" Sport now?
But...WHY carryOVER.. your thoughts about that?
to spoil the JOY
of seein' incredible ELVISH Gymnastic SKILLS?
Kili has surfed TWICE already..
1. TrollShaws he Surf/slid under TOM or one of themzz.
2. DURin' the Spider Fight, again slid or surfed under
one of killer spiders...
YET? if you EVER Watch WorldCLASS Gymnastics?
ITzz kinda ELVISH?
what they do...
DON'T you Think?
What about Ballerina's, HUH?
They do Death Defying' Tricks TOO?
Bomb'z Cool on thiz Surfin'
Especially for the Fact that
bom wazz a LETTERED
Gymnast DURin High School
(Trampoline & Pommel horse)..
LEGGY is as "Light as a Feather
& Hard as Dragon Scales"
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 21 2014, 5:36am
Post #20 of 28
(419 views)
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I can't find Tolkien's use of the term "legions" in TH.
He does say "vast host of Goblins" and "host of Wargs" , and this rather indeterminate number seems to have transmogrified into "legion" and is now being interpreted in its original Roman army sense.
Yeah, I didn't go back and check Tolkien's wording, but legion implies a level of sophistication and organization that the goblins of the Misty Mountains were probably incapable of (at least without better leadership). I still stand by my conservative estimate for the size of the goblin host.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Arannir
Valinor
Oct 21 2014, 8:00am
Post #22 of 28
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Jackson already stated that it is not meant to be bigger than Pelennor.
Other than that - PJ will have done a good job if I do not think about the numbers on screen but are simply captivated by the events.
I remember how excited I was during the Morannon battle and the scenes in Mount Doom - expectring the moment the ring is destroyed.
I assume during the battle in Bot5A we will all wait for the strikes that will end at least 5 characters' life (though I am not so sure anymore where and when Bolg will die).
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 21 2014, 3:29pm
Post #23 of 28
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Here's an article i remember reading a while back on the subject...
About 3000 on the side of Men, Elves, Dwarves and Eagles agrees with my own assessment. The analysis is much less conservative than I was concerning the size of the army of goblins, wolves and Wargs, but I could readily accept the estimate of 30,000 or so.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Oct 21 2014, 3:45pm
Post #24 of 28
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It's all rather specualtive, though.
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The only things we could say for certain are that the goodies must have numbered more than 1,500. Beyond that it's pretty much wholly guesswork, isn't it?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 21 2014, 3:52pm
Post #25 of 28
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The only things we could say for certain are that the goodies must have numbered more than 1,500. Beyond that it's pretty much wholly guesswork, isn't it?
1500 (I know that you wrote 'more than') doesn't even account for all of Dain's Dwarves and all of the Wood-elf spearmen. Once you add Thorin's company, Bard's men, the rest of the Elves (archers) and the Great Eagles, I don't think that there could have been less than 2000 on that side.
Jackson might bump the numbers significantly higher than any estimates based strictly on Tolkien.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Whatzz Wrong about SURFin'..?
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