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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
DOS Chapter of the Week: It Is Our Fight
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DwellerInDale
Rohan


Oct 17 2014, 4:56pm

Post #1 of 46 (2381 views)
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DOS Chapter of the Week: It Is Our Fight Can't Post



Well, folks, it had to happen: for those of you who've been paying attention the last few years, it should come as no surprise that Dweller hosts the discussion of this hugely Tauriel-centric scene. The scene itself, though very important in the scheme of things, is quite short at only 95 seconds. And the message from the scene is pretty clear: The Elves get involved. So without delay here are nine questions:

1. This scene is, obviously, completely non-canon. Opinions about such scenes usually differ widely. Did the scene work for you, or would you rather it had not been in the movie?




2. This scene is central to both Legolas' and Tauriel's story arcs. Why do you think Tauriel went AWOL to chase the orc pack? And why did Legolas follow her?







3. Does Tauriel think that Kili is dead? Narzug hinted as such in the Orc Interrogation scene; Thranduil said that he did not care about "one dead Dwarf" while Tauriel was within earshot; and Tauriel says to Legolas that the King has never allowed orc filth to "cross our borders and kill our prisoners".




4. Tauriel's central, simple line is, "It IS our fight!" Notice that in the first trailer, she delivers her line while looking askance at Legolas. In the movie, however, she says it as she turns to face him. Which do you think is better?





5. Legolas and Tauriel switch back and forth from Elvish to Common Tongue. Did this seem natural? Also, how would you compare the sound of Tauriel's Elvish to, say, Arwen's or Galadriel's?







Ú-’ohenathon. Cí dadwenithon, ú-’ohenathon im.


6. Tauriel's speech:

It is our fight. It will not end here. With every victory, this evil will grow.
If your father has his way, we will do nothing. We will hide within our walls, live our lives away from the light, and let darkness descend.
Are we not part of this world?
Tell me, Mellon, when did we let evil become stronger than us?




Does her speech sound like the elves in Tolkien's books?



7. Why doesn't Legolas want to get involved?




8. Were Evangeline Lilly and Orlando Bloom convincing in thier roles as Elves? Did you think that one of the two was better than the other?



9. Finally, how will this scene affect Tauriel's and Legolas' decisions after the destruction of Laketown? We know from the first BOFA trailer that they meet up and go on some sort of mission.





Don't mess with my favorite female elf.






Glorfindela
Valinor


Oct 17 2014, 5:42pm

Post #2 of 46 (2021 views)
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Ugh, no thank you! [In reply to] Can't Post

In answer to just the first point, this scene did not work for me at all, and I would much rather it had not been in the film.

(And those pictures of Legolas are terrible.)


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Oct 17 2014, 5:53pm

Post #3 of 46 (2005 views)
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Response to first response: [In reply to] Can't Post

"Aw, c'mon Glorfy, tell me how you really think!" Wink



Don't mess with my favorite female elf.






SafeUnderHill
Rohan

Oct 17 2014, 6:16pm

Post #4 of 46 (1986 views)
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I'd just like to say [In reply to] Can't Post

The music in this scene is sublime and flows so well with Tauriels lines. I also enjoy the use of real locations.


Cirashala
Valinor


Oct 17 2014, 6:18pm

Post #5 of 46 (1978 views)
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Not sure you want that lol! [In reply to] Can't Post

She's NOT a fan of these two elves, according to her many passionate "ninja elves" rants of the past several months Wink (I assume Glorfindela is a she given what I've seen in her posts and the name).

She will probably tell you just what she thinks of these two! Just be prepared to get what you asked for, is all Evil



Darkstone
Immortal


Oct 17 2014, 7:40pm

Post #6 of 46 (1973 views)
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Fantastic! [In reply to] Can't Post

1. This scene is, obviously, completely non-canon.

What else is new? When I read the books I doubt any of the scenes in my head match how Tolkien pictured them.


Opinions about such scenes usually differ widely.

Opinions are like kittens: Soft and fuzzy and the accidental result of pure instinct.


Did the scene work for you, or would you rather it had not been in the movie?

I’m definitely in the non-Hugo Dyson camp here. Does she have a sister?


2. This scene is central to both Legolas' and Tauriel's story arcs. Why do you think Tauriel went AWOL to chase the orc pack?

Three reasons. She hates the idea of orcs running around loose in Greenwood, she hates what orcs do in general, and, most of all, she just hates orcs.


And why did Legolas follow her?

This means something.

Hmmmmm.....

How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

-Matthew 18:12-13

Legolas is going to make a great king.


3. Does Tauriel think that Kili is dead?

She’s a warrior: Never believe someone’s dead until you see a body. Especially a Dwarf. Even a young one light of beard.


Narzug hinted as such in the Orc Interrogation scene;

Never trust an orc, even moreso than a Dwarf.


Thranduil said that he did not care about "one dead Dwarf" while Tauriel was within earshot;

As Captain of the Guard I’m sure Tauriel’s heard Thranduil say a lot of things during interrogations. She’s doubtless even set a few orcs "free" herself.


Tauriel says to Legolas that the King has never allowed orc filth to "cross our borders and kill our prisoners".

I’m suddenly reminded of Cordelia and the Earl of Kent.


4. Tauriel's central, simple line is, "It IS our fight!"

Supposedly there’s a scene of a meeting of Elves just prior to the Council of Elrond where Legolas gives this line. Similarly, there’s a rumored scene where XenArwen gives this line to Elrond and Galadriel in Lothlorien inspiring them to send Elves to Helm’s Deep. Nice to see it finally made it off the cutting room floor.


Notice that in the first trailer, she delivers her line while looking askance at Legolas. In the movie, however, she says it as she turns to face him. Which do you think is better?

Standard framing techniques. The shot of her turning right is more personal and confidential. The face-on shot is more defiant and confrontational. A shot of her turning to the left would be questioning and subtly threatening. Note the last is how Legolas is framed.


5. Legolas and Tauriel switch back and forth from Elvish to Common Tongue.

Like Aragorn and Arwen in the Rivendell bridge scene.


Did this seem natural?

In linguistics this is called “code-switching”. Tauriel doubtless deliberately initiates this to minimize the social difference between her and Legolas. When she speaks Sindarin she is communicating in the language of the society where she is Legolas’ social inferior. In speaking Common she can speak to him as an equal, and thus defy him if need be. (See also "communication accommodation".)

Note that Arwen does the same thing on the bridge in Rivendell when she switches to Common to pledge her love after Aragorn has been blathering away in Sindarin emphasizing their differences.


Also, how would you compare the sound of Tauriel's Elvish to, say, Arwen's or Galadriel's?

More earthy than Arwen’s, more natural than Galadriel’s.


6. Tauriel's speech:

It is our fight. It will not end here. With every victory, this evil will grow.
If your father has his way, we will do nothing. We will hide within our walls, live our lives away from the light, and let darkness descend.
Are we not part of this world?
Tell me, Mellon, when did we let evil become stronger than us?

Does her speech sound like the elves in Tolkien's books?


The cadence does seem to match certain of Tolkien's Sindar poetry. Somebody has a good ear.


7. Why doesn't Legolas want to get involved?

He’s a good son.


8. Were Evangeline Lilly and Orlando Bloom convincing in thier roles as Elves?

Only Liv Tyler was a better Elf, but then, who else is even in her league?


Did you think that one of the two was better than the other?

I think Lilly was the better Tauriel, and Bloom was the better Legolas.

Thankfully Tilly picked up and Bloom finally realized the essential truth that Tyler knew all along: *Elves are not Vulcans!*


9. Finally, how will this scene affect Tauriel's and Legolas' decisions after the destruction of Laketown? We know from the first BOFA trailer that they meet up and go on some sort of mission.

A very crucial scene: They will now go as equals rather than as Prince and subject.

******************************************
"Hola! Gorbag! What are you doing up here? Had enough of war already?"
"Orders, you lubber. And what are you doing, Shagrat? Tired of lurking up there? Thinking of coming down to fight?"
"Orders to you. I'm in command of this pass. So speak civil. What's your report?"

"Everything's really great in Cirith Ungol,
All the way from here to down below.
We haven’t seen old Shelob though she’s seven ranga tall,
About as high as a spider oughta grow!

"There’s one thing that we found in Cirith Ungol,
We found it just a little while ago.
There’s a slime trail going all the way to Shelob’s dark abode.
We followed it and found a giant midget elf-lord in the road,
We fought him and prevailed and boy we really knocked him cold!
He’s out about as far as he can go!
He’s out about as far as he can go!"

-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings


Glorfindela
Valinor


Oct 17 2014, 10:23pm

Post #7 of 46 (1925 views)
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Indeed [In reply to] Can't Post

I am a 'she' – and I wouldn't exactly call my responses 'passionate', since that is too strong a word. Cool dislike is more like it. Asking for opinions on this controversial addition to the story is bound to attract criticism from those who do not like it and think it goes a long way towards spoiling the film for them (and there are many of those).


In Reply To
She's NOT a fan of these two elves, according to her many passionate "ninja elves" rants of the past several months Wink (I assume Glorfindela is a she given what I've seen in her posts and the name).

She will probably tell you just what she thinks of these two! Just be prepared to get what you asked for, is all Evil



Eruvandi
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2014, 11:59pm

Post #8 of 46 (1903 views)
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All elf scenes make me happy [In reply to] Can't Post

1. This scene is, obviously, completely non-canon. Opinions about such scenes usually differ widely. Did the scene work for you, or would you rather it had not been in the movie?

It worked fine for me. I'm head-over-heels in love with the Hobbit book and all, but IMO it would have been boring had the movies followed it to the letter. Therefore, the expansions are appreciated by me.

I have to agree with Glorfindella on something, though. Natural lighting and CGI touch-ups are not Orlando Bloom's friend in this scene.Crazy


2. This scene is central to both Legolas' and Tauriel's story arcs. Why do you think Tauriel went AWOL to chase the orc pack? And why did Legolas follow her?

Given the speech she gives in this scene, Tauriel is clearly upset about the fact that there's something big and evil going on, and her king isn't doing anything about it.

IMO, Legolas followed her either because A.) He told Thranduil she had left and he said to go get her or B.) He didn't say anything and just wants to get her to come back before she gets herself the ME equivalent of court-marshaled.

3. Does Tauriel think that Kili is dead? Narzug hinted as such in the Orc Interrogation scene; Thranduil said that he did not care about "one dead Dwarf" while Tauriel was within earshot; and Tauriel says to Legolas that the King has never allowed orc filth to "cross our borders and kill our prisoners".
Given that line about "kill our prisoners", I'd say she does. Heck, she may think some if not all of the other dwarves are dead.


4. Tauriel's central, simple line is, "It IS our fight!" Notice that in the first trailer, she delivers her line while looking askance at Legolas. In the movie, however, she says it as she turns to face him. Which do you think is better?
I like it better when she turns to face him. When she "looked askance" at him to say the line, from a body-language perspective, it looked almost like she was worried about disagreeing with her superior officer, who just so happens to be the son of the king. When she faces him, however, it communicates that she has confidence in what she's saying. She isn't afraid to face Legolas, her friend, and make an argument for something in which she strongly believes.



5. Legolas and Tauriel switch back and forth from Elvish to Common Tongue. Did this seem natural?

I've heard it said that two (or more) people who are fluent in more than one language can and will easily switch back and forth between them in conversation, sometimes without thinking about it. Even if it wasn't natural, IMO, you'll eventually annoy the audience if you have them sitting there reading subtitles for any particular length of time. You'd start to miss things after awhile.


Also, how would you compare the sound of Tauriel's Elvish to, say, Arwen's or Galadriel's?

It's all Elvish to me.

6. Tauriel's speech:

It is our fight. It will not end here. With every victory, this evil will grow.
If your father has his way, we will do nothing. We will hide within our walls, live our lives away from the light, and let darkness descend.
Are we not part of this world?
Tell me, Mellon, when did we let evil become stronger than us?



Does her speech sound like the elves in Tolkien's books?

Are we talking about the Hobbit book or the other books? If The Hobbit, there's a distinct lack of the words "Tra-la-lally" in her speech, so the answer is no.Tongue If the other books...well...I'm not sure I know how to make that comparison. As far as content goes, some elves wanted to get involved in the troubles of the world and some didn't. Whether or not she sounds like the elves in Tolkien's books, IMO, depends on which elf you look at.


7. Why doesn't Legolas want to get involved?

He's been listening to his father and thinks that other lands are not his concern.


8. Were Evangeline Lilly and Orlando Bloom convincing in thier roles as Elves?

Sure. Lee PaceHeart and Cate Blanchet will always be the best elves in my book (pretty sure they may actually be elvesWink), but EL and OB did as well as any mortal being could, IMO.

Did you think that one of the two was better than the other?
Not necessarily.


9. Finally, how will this scene affect Tauriel's and Legolas' decisions after the destruction of Laketown? We know from the first BOFA trailer that they meet up and go on some sort of mission.

From the looks of the teaser trailer, it looks like they'll be present to witness some of the suffering of the Laketowners. I figure they, or at least Leggy will act as the birds did in the book and bring the news about Smaug to Thranduil and then Thranduil will (fabulously) bring much-needed help to the Laketowners.


"Home is behind the world ahead
And there are many paths to tread
Through shadow to the edge of night
Until the stars are all alight.

Mist and shadow
Cloud and shade
All shall fade
All shall fade"



Avandel
Half-elven


Oct 18 2014, 12:06am

Post #9 of 46 (1909 views)
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*Shrugs* [In reply to] Can't Post

With due respect to the most passionate fans of Tauriel and Legolas (and the OP). It's a bridge/transition scene - suppose they had to do SOMETHING for the narrative to flow. But re Tauriel and Legolas, like the Bard fight the most.

1. So for the OP - didn't think much of it at the time, but re tripping over a recent essay commenting on Tauriel it's bothering me more lately - the fact that the CAPTAIN OF THE GUARD, which I assume is a fairly high position, just takes off - and this after some intense events. Not exactly officer material there, but *shrug* it's a movie thing I guess (like when the U.S. president decides to go battle aliens.) Why she did it - kind of murky - anger at the orcs, worried about Kili.....don't think she thinks he dead, as the last she saw he was still alive.

Also pointed in said essay, which maybe I shouldn't have read, a dynamic where a CAPTAIN OF THE GUARD is telling a PRINCE she is sworn to protect her views of the world, and his FATHER her KING, is a bit of a strain *cough*.

2. "It is our fight" - "no, it's not" - Trite, not that I have a better alternative. The film version of it was better. IMO the switch from Elvish to English flowed naturally enough. The rest of the speech - for me it's just not so much bad, as that the dynamics bother me again, that this supposedly young elf is lecturing a prince of the realm, and on the other hand it makes Legolas look ineffectual or something.

3. Re "stalker Legolas" he has a thing for Tauriel - whether friend or more, don't know and find that aspect irritating and demeaning to the LOTR Legolas. Also pointed out in same essay, the fact that so much time is spent on Thranduil talking about his son when his kingdom has had a few noteworthy events - and assuming Thranduil has been out and about and knows the situation is getting grimmer, this is what he spends time on with the CAPTAIN OF THE GUARD?

4. Overall, I think there HAD to be a scene bridging the elves into events in Laketown *shrug* this works as well as any, considering the way Tauriel was depicted. So I can't say I wish it wasn't in the film, unless you pull Tauriel out of the mix completely. It's not that different than the alternative I would have had in mind, which would have had the elves following the orcs immediately, tho that would change everything else that follows in some way.

5. Er, visually - very pretty location. Tauriel's hair is pretty. IMO few can roll out Elvish better than OB, and in a sense, here when OB drops his voice, it's IMO one of the best effects, way better than listening to him try to growl like a tough guy which his voice doesn't have the range for and I flinch, every time. On the other hand, for me, this was definitely not Legolas at his best. OB seemed (by way of comparison) to have far more of that mysterious "chemistry" with VM in LOTR, this scene to me just seemed like "acting" and thought flat-out EL came off better, which shocked me early on.

And the notorious unflattering visual effect on Legolas - to this day I look away because high resolution BR isn't helping.

Don't know that this scene SPECIFICALLY has a tie to later events, in that one would hope that if the elves were in the film, that Elros or other would look out of the door once in a while and say, hey, "Laketown is on fire!" and the elves could have gotten involved that way.


Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu






Kim
Valinor


Oct 18 2014, 1:03am

Post #10 of 46 (1890 views)
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Thanks Dweller! [In reply to] Can't Post

1. This scene is, obviously, completely non-canon. Opinions about such scenes usually differ widely. Did the scene work for you, or would you rather it had not been in the movie?
On the surface, yes. I like Tauriel and I do like the staging of the scene (after the animal blood and carcases – yuk) as I like the view across to Lake-town. It’s really beautifully framed. However, it is a bit of a puzzle as to why Legolas scolds her for betraying his father by leaving against his orders when she actually left before they were given. Not sure if it’s because of some edits that might become more clear in the EE?

2. This scene is central to both Legolas' and Tauriel's story arcs. Why do you think Tauriel went AWOL to chase the orc pack? And why did Legolas follow her?
Well, I think she gives her reasons when she comments on letting orcs cross their borders and attack their prisoners. And it seems like Legolas followed her to bring her back, basically following orders. And he is fond of her, and doesn’t want his friend to get in trouble.

BTW, I really like these photos, you can see they’re good friends.

3. Does Tauriel think that Kili is dead? Narzug hinted as such in the Orc Interrogation scene; Thranduil said that he did not care about "one dead Dwarf" while Tauriel was within earshot; and Tauriel says to Legolas that the King has never allowed orc filth to "cross our borders and kill our prisoners".
She’s probably thinking it’s a possibility at this point, and after the nice conversation she had with Kili, is at least concerned by the thought, if not upset and wanting to do something about it.

4. Tauriel's central, simple line is, "It IS our fight!" Notice that in the first trailer, she delivers her line while looking askance at Legolas. In the movie, however, she says it as she turns to face him. Which do you think is better?
Good catch. Hmmm, the side view seems a little more passive, whereas by facing Legolas, she’s more actively trying to convince him. I’ll vote for the movie version.

5. Legolas and Tauriel switch back and forth from Elvish to Common Tongue. Did this seem natural? Also, how would you compare the sound of Tauriel's Elvish to, say, Arwen's or Galadriel's?
I imagine they’d normally speak to each other in Elvish, and the Common Tongue was for our benefit. I’d say hers is more down to earth, while Arwen and Galadriel are more ethereal and soft, matching their personalities and roles.

6. Tauriel's speech: Does her speech sound like the elves in Tolkien's books?
Hmmm, can’t really answer that as I’m not as familiar with the books as the movies. However, I like the mention of “living their lives away from the light” – that seems like it fits with the world of elves.

7. Why doesn't Legolas want to get involved?
At this point, he seems to pretty much follow his father’s lead and doesn’t really question how he chooses to run his kingdom.

8. Were Evangeline Lilly and Orlando Bloom convincing in thier roles as Elves? Did you think that one of the two was better than the other?
I really like Evangeline Lilly’s performance – it felt very natural. Orlando Bloom felt a bit stiff, but I do like how you could tell Legolas cares about her, as a friend at least.

9. Finally, how will this scene affect Tauriel's and Legolas' decisions after the destruction of Laketown? We know from the first BOFA trailer that they meet up and go on some sort of mission.
Well, this pretty much sets things in motion, and after the scenes at the end of DOS, they’re pretty much involved with the lives of the people of Lake-town, and want to help stop the orcs if nothing else.


Thorin’s hair: well, let’s see, Legolas isn’t really upset with Tauriel in this scene so much as he’s thinking about the majestic mane and doesn’t want to chase after it lest there are comparisons to his own straight look. Explains why he stole Orcrist from Thorin, just jealous of someone with luscious flowing curly locks that still look awesome covered in cobwebs.

Smile




Join us every weekend for The Hobbit Chapter of the Week discussions!



DwellerInDale
Rohan


Oct 18 2014, 1:25am

Post #11 of 46 (1867 views)
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Thanks for the Bible quote [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmmm, with the "I say unto you" in there, sounds like the Master of Laketown!

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.






DwellerInDale
Rohan


Oct 18 2014, 1:46am

Post #12 of 46 (1877 views)
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Captains going against orders [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the feedback. I haven't read the essay you mention, but I must say I've never agreed with this criticism, for two reasons. First, why should rank automatically prevent one from disobeying orders? If Tauriel was as passionate about destroying this evil as she seems, I don't see why the fact that she is a Captain of the Guards would have prevented her from going against Thranduil's orders. Second, her actions are intended to destroy a group of evil baddies who just killed at least half a dozen of her own elf guards, so it's not as if she's running off to betray her realm-- more like she's decided to take matters into her own hands, which I can see an officer doing if he or she felt it was the right thing to do. Look at the decisions sometimes made by officers in the US Army in a place like Afghanistan-- they often have to make decisions that run counter to those of the "fobbits"* who send out the orders.


*fobbit: army slang (based on Tolkien, natch) for those who work at a Forward Operating Base (FOB) and never see field action.

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.






Cirashala
Valinor


Oct 18 2014, 2:14am

Post #13 of 46 (1877 views)
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my apologies [In reply to] Can't Post

I had a tough time trying to figure out the right word to describe it- maybe dislike would have been better Smile

Discourse is always free on one side or the other- I apologize if it sounded like I meant otherwise Smile



DwellerInDale
Rohan


Oct 18 2014, 2:21am

Post #14 of 46 (1867 views)
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A Point About Orcrist [In reply to] Can't Post

Since you managed to get Thorin and Orcrist into your post, here's a question that I did not include in the OP: Where is Orcrist, if neither Legolas nor Tauriel appear to be carrying it? Legolas clearly has it in Laketown. Is this a major continuity error, or is there some explanation?

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.






DwellerInDale
Rohan


Oct 18 2014, 2:42am

Post #15 of 46 (1851 views)
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Yes, another oblique reference to King Lear [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the ref, Darkstone. In an earlier thread I mentioned how Thranduil's speech in the Orc Interrogation scene reminded me strongly of King Lear. Now we have this as well. Were Walsh & Boyens trying to put some Shakespearean elements from that play into their script?


Quote
Tauriel says to Legolas that the King has never allowed orc filth to "cross our borders and kill our prisoners".

I’m suddenly reminded of Cordelia and the Earl of Kent.


Don't mess with my favorite female elf.






Kim
Valinor


Oct 18 2014, 2:44am

Post #16 of 46 (1858 views)
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Hmmm [In reply to] Can't Post

I think I'll go with the theory others have mentioned: "It's on the horse Legolas rode out on to find Tauriel, conveniently off screen." How's that? Tongue



Join us every weekend for The Hobbit Chapter of the Week discussions!



Cirashala
Valinor


Oct 18 2014, 2:52am

Post #17 of 46 (1861 views)
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Hey [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that, from a moral perspective, Tauriel was doing what she knew was right.

HOWEVER, from a military standpoint (speaking as someone who has had several family members in the US armed forces), what she did was most definitely cause for court martial.

Yes, sometimes in the heat of battle what "fobbits" order is the stupidest thing that could be done. It happens, and it's stupid, and awful, and innocent people get killed as a result of it Frown But consider the consequences of disobeying orders- court martial, possibly treason charges, 20 years in Leavenworth (the US military prison) sentenced to heavy labor. Depending on the orders disobeyed, and possible deaths that result from it, the sentence could even be death (don't know for certain if this is still done, but it used to be a firing squad death for sure).

What Tauriel did, from a military standpoint (not a moral one- just wanted to make that clear), is:

1. Going AWOL. Yes, if she didn't hear Thranduil's order or left before it was issued, that is excusable. BUT- one Legolas informs her of the edict, if she continues to be AWOL after that it's willful AWOL. Could be considered desertion (a very grave act as well).

2. Her realm is under military threat- the orc just threatened them with WAR. She has a sworn duty to protect her people and her king (one would assume military officers are sworn in or serve under oath or some such thing). In a wartime situation especially, leaving one's post could mean the difference between life and death of innocent civilians. THAT is a very serious crime. Her first duty is to her king, her second to her people. This would most definitely be considered desertion.

3. When she chooses to stay behind with Kili, rather than following Legolas, he gets hurt (Bolg). She DEFINITELY has a sworn duty to her prince! If he had died because she disobeyed orders, that would DEFINITELY be punishable by death. That would be the equivalent of a soldier in our military (or a Secret Service agent) allowing our president to be shot or killed! Very much considered a traitorous act. He could have been killed, and at that moment she would have been responsible just as a personal guard to the prince would have been (a "king's guard" type position) because Legolas did not have a guard with him.

Plus, by convincing Legolas to go with her, she put him in danger. Whether or not he could fight was mute point- he wouldn't have been in that situation if she had not convinced him to come with.

4. She has already been shown "fraternizing" with prisoners. This does not give her "brownie points" in light of all this- one could easily charge her with treason by way of "joining the enemy" aka dwarves with these actions.

5. She has sworn to abide by the laws of her realm and follow the orders given to her by her king- she willfully disobeyed both of those.

6. She reacted impulsively and from an emotional standpoint (though I would think said emotion would be more compassion for the dwarves, particularly her friend, and anger at the king for being passive re orcs). A captain/military leader who cannot separate emotion from logical response is not a good captain, and reacting like that is how people get killed. One needs to have a practical, logical reaction to threats, not emotional/impulsive one (thankfully for me in the film, she did analyze the situation in the fight at Bard's house rather than just charging in). Emotional/impulsive reactions do not account for potential flaws, as they do not allow for time to consider all possible outcomes of a situation- it shuts down the logic/critical thinking response in the brain- something that is crucial in a dangerous situation! One needs to think things through, and impulsive reactions do not do that.

Now that that has been said, I will add:

1. Morally she did what was right. It was wrong to sit by and do nothing, and it was wrong to allow harm to come to prisoners, and it was wrong to excuse the orcs from the letter of the law simply because they were after those who happen to be a race that the king does not like (as well as specific people he's miffed at).

2. She went after the orcs to keep her prisoners from dying. The dwarves were under her charge, and when a prisoner is not ordered to be executed and is under a guard's charge, they are responsible for their prisoners' safety. She continued that responsibility beyond the borders- one could argue that she was trying to bring escaped prisoners back initially and fulfill her duty to her prisoners.

3. They had killed several soldiers presumably underneath her, so she had an act of war against her people and was responding in kind.

4. She recognized the greater threat and was trying to alleviate that threat. This aligns with her desire to both kill the orcs and the spiders at their source.


So in turn, ALL of the initial objections I have to her being a captain and her actions (the "AWOL" list) would have been avoided HAD SHE LEFT A LETTER OF RESIGNATION TO HER POST. A simple quick scrawl relieving her from duty in the military would have absolved her of ALL responsibility that she violates above, thus allowing her to be free to do what she felt was right without militaristic repercussions.

Because she had not resigned from her position, she should most definitely be held accountable to the consequences of her actions. A simple note- and she would make a good soldier (if she can let go of impulsive decisions and emotional response, that is).

But her actions absent of a resignation are what makes me believe that she should NEVER have been put in the position of a Captain of the Guard.


And for what it's worth, disobeying orders in the US Military does not happen as often as you think, at least not without severe consequences. It's also a matter of the disobedient officer being caught- if the platoon/others present do not report it, then it won't be punished as it's all hearsay at that point. But it is a very, very serious charge.



(This post was edited by Cirashala on Oct 18 2014, 2:52am)


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Oct 18 2014, 3:59am

Post #18 of 46 (1847 views)
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Going against the fobbits [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the in-depth discussion, Cirashala! Actually, my point in responding to the criticisms of this scene has never been to justify Tauriel's actions, but rather to argue against the opinion that her being a Captain of the Guard renders her actions unrealistic and thus that the scene reflects bad writing from Walsh and Boyens.

It also bears mention that the Woodland Realm is not the Army-- she wouldn't be thrown into the equivalent of Leavenworth if she came back. Look at Elros (the Keeper of the Keys). He got drunk and let 13 important prisoners escape, but just a day or so later he's on guard duty outside the front gate. Having a King at the top of the chain of command makes anything possible, e.g. forgiving directly disobeying an order.

Tauriel writing a letter of resignation? LOL never thought of that. Do elves write letters of resignation? What would they be like?! (Dear Boss, after 3,000 years of your &@*!# I quit!) Wink

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.






Cirashala
Valinor


Oct 18 2014, 4:57am

Post #19 of 46 (1832 views)
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LOL [In reply to] Can't Post

I like your letter of resignation Tongue Sly Gave me a good chuckle!

Gotcha- makes sense now Smile

Hopefully we'll see Thranduil's reaction in either the DOS EE (unlikely) or BO5A Smile I'm curious as to what he's going to say.

Regarding Elros- perhaps front gate duty WAS punishment? He certainly isn't guarding prisoners anymore! Wink It could be that he has to pull double shifts or stand there in the rain, etc. Plus, given Bilbo's secret involvement, it would be rather hard to prove exactly what happened to cause the keys to "walk" up to the dungeons themselves lol! I think, IIRC, that in the book the elves ended up thinking it was some sort of dwarf magic or something, but not sure.

Drunk on duty is serious for sure- who knows how many potatoes he had to peel! Or double shifts, possibly miserable shifts (come on- how boring would it be to stand in ONE PLACE all day at a gate that NO ONE is coming in or out of (after Legolas, anyway)?) Or it could have been a case of "after the war's over, then we'll deal with your little...indiscretion."

But d.o.d. is not as serious as the king's son being left to fend for himself against several orcs, one of which caused him injury (and could have killed him- I think that's the most we've EVER seen Legolas in genuine peril and injured- even in LOTR!), so she could heal a dying dwarf prisoner.

Eh, well- I hope we get a scene of Thranduil being told she's gone and blowing his stack Smile



cats16
Half-elven


Oct 18 2014, 6:50am

Post #20 of 46 (1840 views)
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Rosie the Riveter [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I love my TORn Tauriel poster. Let's do this!

1. This scene is, obviously, completely non-canon. Opinions about such scenes usually differ widely. Did the scene work for you, or would you rather it had not been in the movie?
Yes, it worked for me. I mean, it would have been strange for them to just arrive in Lake-town; this scene gives us an indication of their impending action in the near future. When I think of scenes like this, I don't consider whether or not it is canon. But, what I do consider is this: does it make any difference? If I see it and feel the Tolkienisms bleeding through, then it works for me.
2. This scene is central to both Legolas' and Tauriel's story arcs. Why do you think Tauriel went AWOL to chase the orc pack? And why did Legolas follow her?
I feel that she left because of the clear threat to the dwarves, for whom she felt some responsibility toward. They were *her* prisoners, who escaped, and are now under threat. Probably some complicated thoughts running through her head, given the overall climate in the realm and the darkness near their borders.

Legolas, well...he went 1. because he felt a responsibility to ensure her safety while out in the wild alone; and 2. if he does have romantic feelings for her (which seems to be the case, of course), then he has a more passionate desire to make sure she is safe.
3. Does Tauriel think that Kili is dead? Narzug hinted as such in the Orc Interrogation scene; Thranduil said that he did not care about "one dead Dwarf" while Tauriel was within earshot; and Tauriel says to Legolas that the King has never allowed orc filth to "cross our borders and kill our prisoners".
As I mentioned earlier, I think she feels a responsibility for the dwarves. (Remember how Legolas in the books feels after Gollum escapes their dungeons?) She may very well think that he's dead, or, approaching it. If she can get there fast enough, she could potentially save him. Plus, she appeared to have a fleeting interest in Kili on a personal level. Nothing romantic, from my perspective. Simply intrigued bewilderment at a new race on their doorstep.
4. Tauriel's central, simple line is, "It IS our fight!" Notice that in the first trailer, she delivers her line while looking askance at Legolas. In the movie, however, she says it as she turns to face him. Which do you think is better?
Hmm...I like both, but perhaps the second one is a bit more effective at its aggression.
5. Legolas and Tauriel switch back and forth from Elvish to Common Tongue. Did this seem natural? Also, how would you compare the sound of Tauriel's Elvish to, say, Arwen's or Galadriel's?
I like her Elvish. It's naturally different from the other elves, just as you and I would speak differently. I think their interaction isn't abnormal for bilingual speakers. I won't make a generality in either direction with that, so I'll just say that it's clearly natural for them, so it works.
Does her speech sound like the elves in Tolkien's books?
Well, I wouldn't bat an eye if I read this in, say, CoH or something like that. I think the message of it rings true, no matter what.
7. Why doesn't Legolas want to get involved?
To be short: like father, like son.
8. Were Evangeline Lilly and Orlando Bloom convincing in thier roles as Elves? Did you think that one of the two was better than the other?
I sure thought so. Hmm...perhaps Lilly, just because she still felt very 'new' at this point. I feel more acquainted with Bloom, so perhaps more of his performance slipped by me the first time.
9. Finally, how will this scene affect Tauriel's and Legolas' decisions after the destruction of Laketown? We know from the first BOFA trailer that they meet up and go on some sort of mission.
I think that they've put their foot in, and cannot necessarily retract it easily. Legolas clearly has a thing with Bolg, and Tauriel is still with the dwarves in Lake-town. I'm sure that she will play a part in Bard's escape from jail, with Legolas's aid/assistance.

Thanks, Dweller! Glad you got to host the chapter involving your favorite elf. Smile






Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!




Glorfindela
Valinor


Oct 18 2014, 9:53am

Post #21 of 46 (1822 views)
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My apologies for my reaction, too [In reply to] Can't Post

I tend to go rather on the defensive when it comes to this issue, probably because of the reactions of some on this forum, who appear to find absolutely nothing wrong with DoS and react with aggression/defensiveness to anyone who criticises it!


In Reply To
I had a tough time trying to figure out the right word to describe it- maybe dislike would have been better Smile

Discourse is always free on one side or the other- I apologize if it sounded like I meant otherwise Smile



DwellerInDale
Rohan


Oct 18 2014, 10:18am

Post #22 of 46 (1814 views)
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As Balin would say, [In reply to] Can't Post

"Apology accepted". Smile

I was wondering about this description of forum members who "...find absolutely nothing wrong with DOS and react with aggression / defensiveness to anyone who criticizes it!" I personally haven't noticed much of this. Maybe using the word "wrong" is a bit too strong. For example, take what would probably be your own biggest beef with DOS, the scene where Legolas balances on the Dwarves' barrels as he fires arrows at the orcs. While not physically impossible (and yes, I know what I'm talking about), no human being could ever do this. But that's the point-- Legolas and Tauriel are most certainly not human; they are beings out of fantasy with extraordinary abilities well beyond human norms. The writers fully intended to show this aspect of their physical nature, so I wouldn't call it "wrong". Nonetheless the scene does come off as too OTT for many people. Maybe saying that DOS had things "to dislike" would be better?

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.






Glorfindela
Valinor


Oct 18 2014, 10:31am

Post #23 of 46 (1811 views)
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This is splitting hairs [In reply to] Can't Post

One person's 'wrong' is another's 'OTT'. For me it (and the Laketown fight) is both: 'wrong' because it is OTT, looks fake and stupid, and seriously detracts from Tolkien's story, and because I dislike the character and looks of Legolas in DoS to a great degree. I am also suspicious of the motives surrounding the addition of this character and Tauriel (both completely unnecessary to my mind, and distracting from Tolkien's story).

It's not that 'DoS had things "to dislike"', rather that it had things that ruin the film for me.

I have noticed a degree of defensiveness and yes, even aggression, among some forum members when it comes to criticism of these films (someone called it 'fanboyism/fangirlism' the other day). I don't know how many times I have had to reiterate that my remarks are my opinion, just as much as their remarks are!


(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Oct 18 2014, 10:31am)


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 18 2014, 10:32am

Post #24 of 46 (1811 views)
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At least there are positives ... [In reply to] Can't Post

You came out liking Tauriel, no?

Smile



Glorfindela
Valinor


Oct 18 2014, 10:42am

Post #25 of 46 (1813 views)
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For myself… [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't dislike Tauriel, or the acting for the character, but think her inclusion/some love story/link with Legolas has seriously compromised her position with me. Had she appeared only in the Mirkwood scenes, I would have been perfectly fine with her inclusion, but as it is she hangs over my head like 'the Sword of Damocles'.


In Reply To
You came out liking Tauriel, no?

Smile


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