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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Prologue in Bo5A
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lidlessEye
Rivendell

Oct 17 2014, 11:25am

Post #1 of 29 (1560 views)
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Prologue in Bo5A Can't Post

so what do you think might be the prologue-scene.
Here's my guess:

We see the gathering of the great dwarf-lords (which Thorin will unite with the arkenstone), where Thorin tries to convince them to march to Erebor and kill Smaug.
No one, even Dain (good introduction of him)will help him.
Last sentence could be sty like, only with the arkenston you will reunite the dwarfs...

then cut to Erebor with a sad expression on Thorins face and Bilbo in a dark corner looking at the arkenstone, which he has in his pocket since the encounter with Smaug.
Then the Title: The battle of 5(Five?) Armies


(This post was edited by lidlessEye on Oct 17 2014, 11:27am)


Azaghâl
Lorien


Oct 17 2014, 11:42am

Post #2 of 29 (802 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

If this is not the case I will be a very sad panda. Frown

As has been said many times over this is the prologue we need to set up the last movie. Here is why:

Most importantly they need to show the importance of the Arkenstone as BOTFA will revolve around it, and it helps build Thorin character.

We need a proper introduction to Dain as he was mentioned in AUJ and really hasn't been mentioned since then.

Bilbo's betrayal and Thorin's desperation l will be emphasized.

*Baruk khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!*


Fleuz
Lorien


Oct 17 2014, 11:51am

Post #3 of 29 (765 views)
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Absolutely! [In reply to] Can't Post

That is the only working Prologue for me.
For the same reasons:
Arkenstone importance
introduction of Dain

And
there must be shown how the dwarf lords in the Iron Hills take notice of the fact, that Smaug's dead and the Arkenstone is at hand.
Maybe something like "when the ravens of the Lonely Mountain fly over the peak of that mountain and bring the message we will come..."


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2014, 12:00pm

Post #4 of 29 (741 views)
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Yes, your lidless ee can see very properly [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink Agree with you

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true

Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer



Arannir
Valinor


Oct 17 2014, 12:01pm

Post #5 of 29 (747 views)
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Story-telling-wise it imho has to be a meeting of the Dwarf-Lords [In reply to] Can't Post

- it introduces Dain
- it re-emphasizes the Arkenstone (very important to give depth to the Bilbo/Thorin dynamic later in the movie)
- it highlights the standing of Thorin among the Dwarven realms
- it kind of summarizes important plot-points (Smaug, etc)


I cannot think of anything that would work better. All other proposals I have read (Sauron prologue, Smaug prologue, Dale prologue, etc.) do not come close in terms of their use as a story-telling device. Plus, there is no need for ana ction-prologue as we will have "action" in Lake-town only minutes later.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



(This post was edited by Arannir on Oct 17 2014, 12:02pm)


Shagrat
Gondor

Oct 17 2014, 12:25pm

Post #6 of 29 (707 views)
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I concur... [In reply to] Can't Post

While I would retain discussion of the Arkenstone, I would change the ending somewhat. Instead, I would have the other lords depart, leaving only Thorin and Dain alone. Here Dain explains that he would follow Thorin wherever, but he cannot risk bringing dragon-fire and ruin on his people in the Iron Hills. They could even use some of the dialogue (somewhat reworked) from the Thrain and Dain exchange after Azanulbizar, since such a scene almost certainly will not be seen in these films now. "You are the father of our folk. We have fought and bled for you, and will again. But we will not enter Erebor. You will not enter Erebor..." and then exchange the references to Durin's Bane to something more specifically about Smaug, and a final warning to Thorin not to undertake this task. As Dain finally departs regretfully there is a close-up on Thorin's disheartened face. There is then a slight transition to the present, where a horrified Thorin watches on as Dain's fears are realized, and Smaug flies towards Lake-town, where Kili and Fili remain.

As I think PJ will want to pick up straight where he left off from the second film, and show the attack in real-time, this is the perfect way to do it. I think we need to see Thorin's anxiety over this attack, since, I imagine, him thinking his nephews are dead (and that he is in some way responsible) will effect his outlook tremendously.


Fleuz
Lorien


Oct 17 2014, 12:32pm

Post #7 of 29 (674 views)
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Good Change! [In reply to] Can't Post

This would give Dain a better standing among all those neigh-sayers. I like.


schadowfax
The Shire

Oct 17 2014, 12:40pm

Post #8 of 29 (668 views)
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my two cents :) [In reply to] Can't Post

"only with the arkenston you will reunite the dwarfs.." - this is cool, except it detracts from the sense of danger/panic left by the ending of dos which might take one out of the scenario a bit. or i could just be over thinking this one Tongue

"then cut to Erebor with a sad expression on Thorins face and Bilbo in a dark corner looking at the arkenstone, which he has in his pocket since the encounter with Smaug."-
i love this! as i read it i immediately pictured it and it worked well, even felt like i'd seen the movie and was recalling the scene :)

however, since pj said we're getting straight into the action im slowly letting go of my prologue hopes even though it's the perfect nay only way to start off a middle earth flick, it would be a nice surprise if there is a prologue esp one along these lines. also, like rotk where it showed the immense influence of the ring, this prologue could serve as a reminder or idea of how nb it is to thorin and the dwarves...

as i stated in a previous post, the prologue is the perfect "you are now entering middle earth" cue as the end credits illustrations of rotk was a "you are now leaving middle earth" cue. i think most fans of the films would wat or yearn for some sense of rotk nostalgia from the get go. nuff said.


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Oct 17 2014, 12:48pm

Post #9 of 29 (698 views)
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I thought we weren't getting one? [In reply to] Can't Post

From what I've heard it's more or less confirmed that the film starts with Smaug attacking Laketown and no prologue.

Hope I'm wrong, I love the prologues.


(This post was edited by QuackingTroll on Oct 17 2014, 12:49pm)


Azaghâl
Lorien


Oct 17 2014, 12:55pm

Post #10 of 29 (656 views)
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I hope you're wrong [In reply to] Can't Post

All the prologues so far have been really great, would be a pitty to not get one for the final ME movie.

*Baruk khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!*


Arannir
Valinor


Oct 17 2014, 12:57pm

Post #11 of 29 (663 views)
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Some people... [In reply to] Can't Post

... interpreted PJ's "we can jump right into the story without any exposition" or something like this he said at ComicCon as "no prologue".

But he said similar things about DoS - I think he simply means that you do not need to get the Company anywhere nor do you have to introduce a whole story. No lenghty exposition but mainly pay-off.

He also said that there are no characters to introduce although we know Dain will most certainly be part of Bot5A.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



(This post was edited by Arannir on Oct 17 2014, 12:57pm)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Oct 17 2014, 1:01pm

Post #12 of 29 (657 views)
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Yes I think a prologue is almost certain. [In reply to] Can't Post

I would agree that his comments may have been interpreted rather literally.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 17 2014, 3:09pm

Post #13 of 29 (577 views)
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Dain should not be in that scene... [In reply to] Can't Post

I still don't think that Dain should have been physically present for that meeting. If he had been there, Thorin should have at least been able to pick his brain for details about the route he took to reach the Blue Mountains and the hazards he encountered on the way. Although, I suppose that a heavily armed party could have swung around Mirkwood to the north and passed by the Grey Mountains without being harassed by "goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs of the worst description." Dain could have also circled around Mirkwood to the south, but that would have brought him near Dol Guldur.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


LordGawain
Rivendell


Oct 17 2014, 3:38pm

Post #14 of 29 (548 views)
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How about Thrain? [In reply to] Can't Post

While Thrain was cut out of DoS, we know more of the battle of Moria was filmed. I still think it is a possibility we'll see Gandalf entering Moria and finding him. Some say it was supposed to go in the DoS prologue, but I'm not sure that's true, since PJ should have enough sense to not even consider a flashback in a flashback in the opening minutes while writing the script.

While all the arguments for a dwarf council prologue are valid indeed, and while it would make a good intro, some considerations have to be made:
1)While it is true that the importance of the Arkenstone must be clear, this was already made clear in DoS several times (prologue, thranduil scene, inscription on the secret door, smaug's dialogue, ...). Gandalf, in the prologue, also tells Thorin he urged Thrain to march upon Erebor. Therefore, the importance of the stone could also be made explicit by the conversation between Gandalf and Thrain.
2) By reminding us of what happened between Azog and Thorin's ancestors, it could reconnect us with their conflict, which was lost in DoS, since Azog stayed at Dol Guldor.
3) Abandoned and overrun Moria would reconnect us with the dwarves' search for a home, and the losses they've had to endure, adding motivation for the dwarves and Thorin in general.
4) It would be a nice transition to Gandalf at the absolute beginning of the adventure, to where he ended up, in a cage in dol guldor.
5) Having Gandalf cross the bridge of Khazad Dum and exploring Moria would be a great opening scene, that would draw the audience into middle earth more than a table meeting.

Half a league, half a league, half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death, rode the six hundred.
'Forward, the Light Brigade! Charge for the guns' he said:
Into the valley of Death rode the six hundred.

Theirs not to make reply, theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death rode the six hundred.


adt100
Rohan

Oct 17 2014, 3:40pm

Post #15 of 29 (572 views)
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In an interview PJ seems to imply not prologue... [In reply to] Can't Post

Something about getting straight into the action, not set-up needed, no new characters to introduce etc. But what that actually means is anyone's guess, could've just been a general comment that being the final part, you do get pretty much into the action straight away.

*oops already been covered above*


(This post was edited by adt100 on Oct 17 2014, 3:44pm)


Shagrat
Gondor

Oct 17 2014, 3:49pm

Post #16 of 29 (525 views)
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Nice idea but problematic [In reply to] Can't Post

Such an opening would be lost on audiences unfamiliar with the EE. No, I think Thrain's entire arc will be relegated to the EE now. I hope beyond hope that all flashbacks - the map and key, how he went missing after Azanulbizar - will be in the DoS EE. If they're not, I don't expect we'll ever see them, and that would leave a huge hole (especially the map and key).

Also, it is important to remember in the DoS prologue that Thorin says Thrain went to meet Gandalf BEFORE he went missing. Now if we presume that Thrain went missing in Moria after the battle, then it's probable Gandalf did not see him thereafter. Indeed, I'm hoping that during the Dol Guldur extended sequence, after Gandalf heals Thrain's mind, he relates his own plight after the battle, and we get to see it. To include such a sequence in the DoS prologue wouldn't make sense, since neither Gandalf nor Thorin would know what became of Thrain; furthermore, it would throw any suspense regarding his fate out of the window. What I would include in the prologue of the EE is a brief flashback showing Thrain giving Gandalf the map and key, and perhaps telling him to keep them from Thorin until the right time.


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Oct 17 2014, 4:07pm

Post #17 of 29 (521 views)
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But surely the description of the meeting in the DOS prologue [In reply to] Can't Post

Doesn't fit with it being in Moria? So what would be the point of an additional meeting there?


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Oct 17 2014, 4:17pm

Post #18 of 29 (502 views)
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I wouldn't have any particular issue with a key giving scene [In reply to] Can't Post

But the DOS prologue already tells us that Thrain visited Gandalf and AUJ tells us he gave Gandalf the key so there is already coverage of this.


Shagrat
Gondor

Oct 17 2014, 4:21pm

Post #19 of 29 (489 views)
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True [In reply to] Can't Post

But we know they filmed it, so it would be nice to see it. It would also provide an opportunity to learn of Thrain's reasoning in choosing Gandalf, since things obviously play out very differently in the book. Obviously he wants these objects safeguarded, but why give them to Gandalf? And why does Gandalf tell him to march on Erebor rather than Khazad Dum? Or was Gandalf lying to Thorin, ignoring the real subject of the meeting (the map and key)? Obviously Thorin can't learn about the key at least until Bag End.


LordGawain
Rivendell


Oct 17 2014, 4:26pm

Post #20 of 29 (483 views)
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true [In reply to] Can't Post

but then again, the meeting of the dwarves and the arkenstone was also covered in the previous films to the extent that everything said in the scene would already be known to the audience. The key and map scene covers something that remained quite vague so far.

Although it can be argued that the arkenstone and meeting, while already fully explained, is still relevant, while the map and key are sort of not important, since the dwarves have already entered the mountain at the start of the film.

Half a league, half a league, half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death, rode the six hundred.
'Forward, the Light Brigade! Charge for the guns' he said:
Into the valley of Death rode the six hundred.

Theirs not to make reply, theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death rode the six hundred.

(This post was edited by LordGawain on Oct 17 2014, 4:27pm)


Jettorex
Lorien


Oct 17 2014, 4:35pm

Post #21 of 29 (492 views)
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stupid question [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought the prologue was going to be Gandalf meeting Thrain in Dol Guldor?
or is that going to be in DOS EE?


- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."


My Book---> www.amazon.com/Popcornmaker


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Oct 17 2014, 4:38pm

Post #22 of 29 (473 views)
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Yes I think any prologue with the dwarf clans would have to [In reply to] Can't Post

Add new interest for us, but that could be in the form of meeting new characters, though I'm sure a reminder wouldn't go amiss. That said I think we can't be too confident that this will be prologue as, in the films, Thorin no longer needs the clans or even the arkenstone (beyond his own greed).

On the key I just tend to think that the precise location of the giving doesn't really make any difference to the story, so I'm ok with seeing it but it seems pretty peripheral.


Jettorex
Lorien


Oct 17 2014, 4:51pm

Post #23 of 29 (470 views)
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I like it but... [In reply to] Can't Post

..... the two previous prologues involved Thorin already.

Since this is the last movie of The Hobbit, I have the feeling they would want to have Bilbo in it somehow,

Also, in LotR all three prologues were very different and focused on different characters/things.

I could see them, showing the dwarf-lord meeting as a flashback somewhere else in the film.


- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."


My Book---> www.amazon.com/Popcornmaker


drewster81
The Shire

Oct 17 2014, 11:28pm

Post #24 of 29 (395 views)
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Prologue in Bag End [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd love to see a prologue that focuses on Bilbo having a small encounter with the Sackville-Baginses.

It would be basically them browbeating them, remarking on his humdrum life. It would be a great way to a) have a great crash cut to him looking down on Lake Town, b) set up his stand against Thorin, and c) give a lovely mirror at the end when he finally gives them their comeuppance at Bag End.

It would be a great way to reiterate Bilbo's personal journey, along with refocusing the story on The Hobbit in it's title.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Oct 18 2014, 12:30am

Post #25 of 29 (355 views)
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d81...CooooOOL!// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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