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The Nine Rings of Men

rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell

Oct 15 2014, 7:04pm

Post #1 of 17 (1304 views)
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The Nine Rings of Men Can't Post

Quick question (if there is such a thing). Do the Ringwraiths still wear their Rings of Power after they have been enslaved? Or does Sauron still have them in his possession and is that how he still controls them after losing the One Ring?

Surely, if the Wraiths were still in possession of their Rings then when Sauron lost his Ring they would not be totally under his control correct?

Not all those who wander are lost

(This post was edited by rangerfromthenorth on Oct 15 2014, 7:05pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 15 2014, 7:13pm

Post #2 of 17 (1118 views)
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I've been told that Sauron has them. [In reply to] Can't Post

Supposedly, once the Nazgul fell completely under Sauron's sway and became permanently connected to the spirit world, Sauron took possession of their Rings.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell

Oct 15 2014, 8:33pm

Post #3 of 17 (1107 views)
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the Rings and Saruman [In reply to] Can't Post

I think I read in the unfinished tales a while ago that Saruman when confronted by a Ringwraith in isengard after its downfall, was asked if he had the One Ring said something to the effect, "If I did, then you would bow down to me..." implying perhaps that the Ringwraiths still have their Rings" Surely if Sauron had the nine in his possession he would still be able to control them even if Saruman had the One?

Not all those who wander are lost


CuriousG
Half-elven


Oct 15 2014, 9:02pm

Post #4 of 17 (1119 views)
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Gandalf's comment to Frodo [In reply to] Can't Post

makes me think that once the Nine Men were corrupted, Sauron took the rings from them because they were thoroughly, irrevocably under his control, and once the rings do their jobs (or don't, as with the Dwarves), he wants them back, because he wants everything. Maybe a powerful person like Saruman with the One could command the Nine whether their rings were on their fingers or locked in a chest somewhere because they were so completely subdued.

"So it is now: the Nine he has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still." (The Shadow of the Past)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 16 2014, 1:32am

Post #5 of 17 (1073 views)
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What CuriousG said above... [In reply to] Can't Post

The fate of the Nine is connected to the Ring. If Frodo took the One Ring for himself, the Nazgul might not be able to directly harm him and would probably at least pretend to serve him. Someone as powerful as Saruman, Gandalf or Galadriel, claiming the Ring, might actually be able to command the Ringwraiths. Sauron's physical possession of the Nine Rings would not factor into it.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Elthir
Grey Havens

Oct 17 2014, 1:09pm

Post #6 of 17 (1041 views)
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Gandalf might be confusing things? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think there is also a Gandalfian statement (possibly at the Council of Elrond) that the Nine the Nazgul keep. What does he mean by that? Or what is the context? Well I'm too lazy to provide it, considering the following...

'They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held...' JRRT Unfinished Tales

The mission is to track down the One in the Third Age, and actually return it to Sauron.

If there are some who think by 'held' Tolkien means 'hold under sway', or 'hold under power', instead of physically holding the Nine Rings... well I think that that interpretation does not work well, especially considering the words 'now himself' in the quote above.

'At length he (Sauron) resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held.' JRRT Unfinished Tales

'I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor command of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills;...' JRRT Letters

'True, alas, is our guess. This is not one of the Ulairi, as many have long supposed. It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the Rings to his hand;...' Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age

'So it is now; the Nine he has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still.' The Lord of the Rings (Gandalf speaking)

'You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine.' The Lord of the Rings (Nerwen speaking, if I recall correctly)

So despite the earlier (in this post) description the Nine the Nazgul 'keep', which again I think was also spoken by Gandalf the Grey, I think the message is that sometime after losing the One Sauron took back the Nine Rings.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Oct 17 2014, 1:21pm)


rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell

Oct 17 2014, 1:41pm

Post #7 of 17 (1012 views)
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excellent response [In reply to] Can't Post

One question in regards to this quote- 'I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor command of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills;...' JRRT Letters
Is the "him" that they would not attack, Sauron? If so, what is the context of this possible attack?

Not all those who wander are lost


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 17 2014, 2:50pm

Post #8 of 17 (1017 views)
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Frodo [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
One question in regards to this quote- 'I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor command of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills;...' JRRT Letters
Is the "him" that they would not attack, Sauron? If so, what is the context of this possible attack?



If I remember correctly, the Professor was writing about Frodo here, if he had claimed the Ring for himself. That was the passage I had in mind in my previous response.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Elthir
Grey Havens

Oct 17 2014, 4:04pm

Post #9 of 17 (1009 views)
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yep, Frodo... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I almost put that in like this '... him [Frodo]' but I failed to find the energy Wink


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Oct 19 2014, 2:31am

Post #10 of 17 (990 views)
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I also believe it was said.. [In reply to] Can't Post

That the Ring only had one master, Sauron, so any 'claim' made by any other Ringbearer would be a fraudulent one. They could never bend it fully to their will. Perhaps it was because Sauron put so much of himself into the Ring.

I cannot recall a reference ATM, and my brain is fried after a hard day's work. Does this sound correct?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 19 2014, 1:49pm

Post #11 of 17 (989 views)
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That sounds about right... [In reply to] Can't Post

Sauron invested his own Will into the Master Ring. Others could make use of it, but only the Dark Lord himself coud command it fully. The Nazgul would never be fully faithful to another wielder; even if they could not intentionally bring harm to another bearer who claimed the Ring, they could and would have acted to subvert his/her will.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


danmax67
The Shire

Oct 21 2014, 7:44pm

Post #12 of 17 (955 views)
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Just happened to read this part today [In reply to] Can't Post

As I was reading FotR today, I came across this part which reminded me of this thread. Thought I'd mention one thing Galdalf said at the Council of Elrond when responding to Galdor's request for proof that Frodo had the One Ring:

...Yet it is a ring. What then? The Nine the Nazgul keep. The Seven are taken or destroyed...

So perhaps they do possess them after all.


rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell

Oct 21 2014, 7:57pm

Post #13 of 17 (962 views)
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The plot thickens [In reply to] Can't Post

I think I am moving toward the direction of Nine being kept by the Nazgul for varying reasons and the other references to Sauron taking said rings is in regards to him controlling them and that they are totally subservient to him. And since the Sauron's will and the will of the Ring remain unbroken he still controls the Nine.

Obviously, any comment in Lord of Rings should take precedent over the unfinished tales or histories because we do not know if Tolkien had completed those works so if two are contrary I'll side with his completed work over the others and this statement seems pretty clear especially because it contrasts the Nine with the seven being "taken".

Not all those who wander are lost


CuriousG
Half-elven


Oct 21 2014, 10:59pm

Post #14 of 17 (948 views)
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It would make the most sense if the Nazgul kept their rings. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Oct 22 2014, 1:56am

Post #15 of 17 (940 views)
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Yeah...but then... [In reply to] Can't Post

we have the niggling problem of the sweeping away in the Loudwater. Ripped cloaks, dead horses, and other paraphernalia were found downstream. How did they keep them on their fingers? Did they have fingers? What would happen if you took their rings? Oh the possibilities!Sly

I say they had a Ringbearers 101 master class with Sauron. If he brought his Ring out of the Downfall of Numenor as a disembodied spirit, then he clearly knew a thing or two about keeping a hold of rings in a river. No fingers needed!!!Tongue

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


CuriousG
Half-elven


Oct 22 2014, 11:41am

Post #16 of 17 (942 views)
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It would explain the Eagles. [In reply to] Can't Post

They're double agents. They swooped down after the flood and rescued the Nine rings and returned them to Sauron to re-equip the Nazgul. That's why no one trusted them to take the One to Orodruin.

See, that solves that puzzle.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Oct 23 2014, 2:24am

Post #17 of 17 (995 views)
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Oh the mysteries that we manage to puzzle out together!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Important, groundbreaking stuff!! Tongue

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?

 
 

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