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Questions: Who is Lor? And who made the Hobbits?
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Oct 15 2014, 4:22am

Post #1 of 29 (966 views)
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Questions: Who is Lor? And who made the Hobbits? Can't Post

(First, apologies if this has been discussed.) Something I've wondered about for quite a while now.

Elves and Men are Illuvatar's Children. Dwarves are Aule's creation. Where do Hobbits fit in on the creation mythology and timeline? The only reference I can find directly (not that I did all that much research) was the invocation of "Lor" by Sam in the Shadows of the Past" chapter.

Is "Lor" Iluvatar? If so, are Hobbits a branch of the Mannish races?

"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. Cool" - vanima ephel



I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan) Smile


Heart Thranduil Appreciation
Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII
I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk




(This post was edited by Lurker in the Mirk on Oct 15 2014, 4:23am)


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Oct 15 2014, 7:23am

Post #2 of 29 (787 views)
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They seem to be a derivative of Men. [In reply to] Can't Post

In a recent discussion of "the Science of Middle Earth we noted that there is not much scope for any form of Evolution in Middle Earth (for living creatures, economies, cultures, ...). However, Hobbits may be an exception. They have too much in common with Men for their existence to be independent of the Followers.

Sam's "Lor bless you" is a common invocation of old, and I strongly suspect many who have used that phrase would have trouble explaining whom they are invoking, but Iluvatar is a good guess (since we haven't heard of any other ultimate being).

The LotR Prologue gives a lot of background on Hobbits, but completely waffles on origins: the Hobbits themselves have no record, and the Elves do not know. Since part of the conceit of these tales is that they are taken from records of the Hobbits (especially the Red Book) and ancient archives of the Elves, that slams a pretty big door.

But I've always thought they were a very early branch of Men, who evolved quite separately and independently.








Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Oct 15 2014, 8:46am

Post #3 of 29 (732 views)
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Thanks, Elizabeth [In reply to] Can't Post

It has been strange to me the lack of canon on this, and I was wondering if I'm missing something. Was drawing the same conclusion and it's good to hear thoughts along the same track.Smile

"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. Cool" - vanima ephel



I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan) Smile


Heart Thranduil Appreciation
Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII
I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk




a.s.
Valinor


Oct 15 2014, 12:49pm

Post #4 of 29 (787 views)
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Sam says, "Lor", Merry says, "Lawks" [In reply to] Can't Post

There may be more, these are just the two I remember. Both being used in English slang of a time, to take the place of "Lord" and both referring to the Christian god ie: Our Lord.

Sam says, "Lor" twice in Chapter 2. It's another of those Christian references in speech, like "heathen kings of old", that don't really belong if held to literal meaning, but I often think (especially in Sam's case) that Tolkien was just using familiar language to set people in their class, something readers would easily relate to, at least in the generation he was writing LOTR in. So even though I'm American, I hear a Cockney accent from the movies when Sam says, "Lor", which may not be strictly what Tolkien was getting at but tells me as a reader that Sam is of a lower class and using slang.

Scull and Hammond point (in LOTR Companion) that Gandalf says "bless my beard" here in this chapter "avoids the theological implications of 'bless my soul'", but that Sam's "Lor bless you/me" "...are not far removed from a Christian invocation of the Lord."

a.s.

"an seileachan"



Elthir
Grey Havens

Oct 15 2014, 12:56pm

Post #5 of 29 (739 views)
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Hobbits [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes Elizabeth already explained that the matter is a bit misty, and purposely so I would say...

... but in my opinion the Hobbits began life as small and hairy footed (a branch of the human race -- as Tolkien will put it in at least one letter), with a mortal fate with respect to death.

In other words, in my opinion I do not think they evolved into 'Hobbits', though they did become less wild and more civilized (and at some point after the Third Age, appear to have become smaller than in Frodo's day). But again, the evolution question is misty.

I consider them the Children of Eru as well.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Oct 15 2014, 12:58pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 15 2014, 2:03pm

Post #6 of 29 (741 views)
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Hobbits are related to Men. [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien states as much in the Prologue in LotR, even if he is vague as to the nature of that relationship:


Quote

It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of our: far nearer to us than Elves, or even the Dwarves.



What is interesting here is that Tolkien seems to place Men closer to Dwarves than to the Elves (perhaps because Dwarves are also mortal).

I have to agree with the opinion that Lor (and Lawks) is being used very much in the Christian manner as being slang for Lord (as in Lord Iluvatar).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 15 2014, 2:06pm)


HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Oct 15 2014, 10:34pm

Post #7 of 29 (730 views)
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Lor bless you... [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought this was simply an English colloquialism by Sam, which basically is "Lord bless you."

In both American and British English, this was a common saying, and you still hear older people saying "Lor bless you" to this day. In this case, I believe Tolkien slipped in another anachronism because in the legendarium, Eru is seldom (if ever?) referred to as "lord" in the religious sense and the word is used in Westernese or Mannish to describe a Lord who owned property or had some authority in a feudal territory.


(This post was edited by HeWhoArisesinMight on Oct 15 2014, 10:36pm)


HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Oct 15 2014, 10:38pm

Post #8 of 29 (710 views)
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Humans had many relatives a long time ago... [In reply to] Can't Post

So your premise is not off at all... Our ancestors probably lived close to and simultaneously with several other type of hominids, including Neanderthals. So if humans and Neanderhals could coexist, why not humans and Hobbits?


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Oct 16 2014, 2:32am

Post #9 of 29 (693 views)
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Point [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I believe Tolkien slipped in another anachronism because in the legendarium, Eru is seldom (if ever?) referred to as "lord" in the religious sense and the word is used in Westernese or Mannish to describe a Lord who owned property or had some authority in a feudal territory.

Makes sense! Thanks, HrWhoArisesinMight.


"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. Cool" - vanima ephel



I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan) Smile


Heart Thranduil Appreciation
Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII
I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk




Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Oct 16 2014, 2:35am

Post #10 of 29 (699 views)
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I've totally forgotten about Merry's invocation [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for that, a.s. Really should re-educate myself, seriously.Evil Interesting, the class and theology-neutrality motives in the respective usages you mentioned. Much food for thought when reading ME for sure.

"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. Cool" - vanima ephel



I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan) Smile


Heart Thranduil Appreciation
Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII
I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk




Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Oct 16 2014, 2:38am

Post #11 of 29 (683 views)
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So... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I consider them the Children of Eru as well.

... in conceptualising and designing the Followers, Eru deliberately varied his prototyping with more variations than with the Eldar?



"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. Cool" - vanima ephel



I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan) Smile


Heart Thranduil Appreciation
Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII
I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk




Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Oct 16 2014, 2:40am

Post #12 of 29 (687 views)
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Interestingly [In reply to] Can't Post

... was the idea of hominids co-existing already popularised during Tolkien's time enough to be an influence in developing the Hobbits? Or was the inspiration from other sources?

"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. Cool" - vanima ephel



I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan) Smile


Heart Thranduil Appreciation
Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII
I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk




Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Oct 16 2014, 2:44am

Post #13 of 29 (687 views)
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That is interesting [In reply to] Can't Post



In Reply To
What is interesting here is that Tolkien seems to place Men closer to Dwarves than to the Elves (perhaps because Dwarves are also mortal).

Men seem to be this bridge between Elves and Dwarves in this regard. After all, Aule did create Dwarves because he was inspired and impatient for the coming of the Children. It would not be a surprise to have the Followers bearing common traits to both Elves and Dwarve. Would it be right to also say while Men share the distinction of being Children of Illuvatar with the Elves, they are closer to Dwarves in their ability to delve into nature and change things/make new things and modify nature forever?



"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. Cool" - vanima ephel



I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan) Smile


Heart Thranduil Appreciation
Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII
I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk




squire
Half-elven


Oct 16 2014, 3:14am

Post #14 of 29 (699 views)
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Hobbits came first, the justifications came afterwards [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien had no idea of his hobbits 'fitting into' the creation myth of the Silmarillion when he invented them for his kids' bedtime story. Only later, when he folded them into the larger legendarium during the writing of The Lord of the Rings, did he feel compelled to mumble his famous non-explanation "it is plain indeed... [they] are relatives of ours", i.e., of Men.

My favorite part of the non-explanation appears later in the same paragraph of the Prologue. It is, I think, all too often overlooked by those who see Tolkien as a giant among world-creators, with a consistent back story for everything:
And the world being after all full of strange creatures beyond count, these little people seemed of very little importance. LotR, bold by squire.

Tolkien in effect pulled Hobbits out of his hat, and gave notice that he was prepared to pull a lot of other creatures out of the same hat, as needed and the Silmarillion be damned. For instance: Ents and huorns, the Druedain, Stone-giants, Watcher in the Water, Gollum (originally not a hobbit at all), Tom Bombadil and Goldberry, oliphaunts, fell beasts, and ... well, "beyond count" is his phrase and it's a good one.

(As far as the hominid connection goes, Tolkien's best shot at being influenced by the theories of his own day is his suggestive imagery for the Druedain, which is quite reminiscent of 19th-century popular recreations of Neanderthal Man.)



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Oct 16 2014, 5:04am

Post #15 of 29 (675 views)
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Ah... thanks, squire [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Only later, when he folded them into the larger legendarium during the writing of The Lord of the Rings, did he feel compelled to mumble his famous non-explanation "it is plain indeed... [they] are relatives of ours", i.e., of Men.

LoL at "mumble". But I can see it. Not the only instance either.



In Reply To
My favorite part of the non-explanation appears later in the same paragraph of the Prologue. It is, I think, all too often overlooked by those who see Tolkien as a giant among world-creators, with a consistent back story for everything:
And the world being after all full of strange creatures beyond count, these little people seemed of very little importance. LotR, bold by squire.

Tolkien in effect pulled Hobbits out of his hat, and gave notice that he was prepared to pull a lot of other creatures out of the same hat, as needed and the Silmarillion be damned. For instance: Ents and huorns, the Druedain, Stone-giants, Watcher in the Water, Gollum (originally not a hobbit at all), Tom Bombadil and Goldberry, oliphaunts, fell beasts, and ... well, "beyond count" is his phrase and it's a good one.

This! GOLD!!!Heart



In Reply To
(As far as the hominid connection goes, Tolkien's best shot at being influenced by the theories of his own day is his suggestive imagery for the Druedain, which is quite reminiscent of 19th-century popular recreations of Neanderthal Man.)

I forgot about the Druedain! Thanks for the reminderSmile



"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. Cool" - vanima ephel



I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan) Smile


Heart Thranduil Appreciation
Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII
I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk




Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 16 2014, 11:50am

Post #16 of 29 (671 views)
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Not sure... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Men seem to be this bridge between Elves and Dwarves in this regard. After all, Aule did create Dwarves because he was inspired and impatient for the coming of the Children. It would not be a surprise to have the Followers bearing common traits to both Elves and Dwarve. Would it be right to also say while Men share the distinction of being Children of Illuvatar with the Elves, they are closer to Dwarves in their ability to delve into nature and change things/make new things and modify nature forever?



I don't know. Certainly Elves created many noteworthy artifacts (the silmarils, for instance). Perhaps the difference is that time weighs more heavily on Men and Dwarves so that both races feel compelled to make a noticable impact on their environment.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Oct 16 2014, 7:04pm

Post #17 of 29 (667 views)
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Not in Middle Earth. [In reply to] Can't Post

Except for the gigantic structures built by the Numenorians in their prime (which appears to have been a singular "golden age," long past by the time of the War of the Ring), Men have shown little inclination to "delve into nature" and modify it. In contrast, the Elves have shown continuing abilities to creatively and cooperatively adapt nature to their needs.

The tendency of Men to "modify nature forever" is a Primary World phenomenon.








Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 16 2014, 7:15pm

Post #18 of 29 (657 views)
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Not my words... [In reply to] Can't Post

Your response applies more to Lurker's post than to mine. However, I would point out that the Argonath and the city of Minas Tirith are both pretty impressive accomplishments; they may not thumb their noses at Nature, but they were also made to stand out.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Oct 17 2014, 12:47am

Post #19 of 29 (652 views)
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Good examples of "Golden Age" works. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quite right, my response was mostly to Lurker.








Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Oct 17 2014, 2:14am

Post #20 of 29 (635 views)
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Like the thought behind this [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Perhaps the difference is that time weighs more heavily on Men and Dwarves so that both races feel compelled to make a noticable impact on their environment.

Thanks!



"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. Cool" - vanima ephel



I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan) Smile


Heart Thranduil Appreciation
Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII
I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk




Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Oct 17 2014, 4:06am

Post #21 of 29 (634 views)
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Great examples, Sempai // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. Cool" - vanima ephel



I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan) Smile


Heart Thranduil Appreciation
Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII
I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk




Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Oct 17 2014, 4:09am

Post #22 of 29 (644 views)
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What about the Eastern races? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The tendency of Men to "modify nature forever" is a Primary World phenomenon.

I am on shaky ground here, but do we know anything about what they did or might have done? I wonder about the tendency as a Primary World phenomenon though, just re the examples Sempai cited. And the "urbanisation" wrought by Men in TA... quite apart from Gondor and Rohan, Dale and Lake-town comes to mind.


"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. Cool" - vanima ephel



I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan) Smile


Heart Thranduil Appreciation
Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII
I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk




Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 17 2014, 1:57pm

Post #23 of 29 (627 views)
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Thanks, yourself... [In reply to] Can't Post

The passing of the Third Age marks the beginning of the Age of Men. This is significant because it not only represents the decline and eventual disappearance of the other races of Middle-earth, but also because Men have a fundamentally different outlook from the older races. Even the Dwarves tended to take a longer view as evidenced by Gimli's remarks about how he would approach the project of the Glittering Caves.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Elthir
Grey Havens

Oct 17 2014, 4:32pm

Post #24 of 29 (643 views)
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Lor is (wait for it)... [In reply to] Can't Post

... a reduction of Olorin!

Gandalf made the Hobbits! Probably instructed by Eru through Lorien the Vala. Appendix B, The Tale of Years of the Third Age notes:

'When maybe a thousand years had passed (...) the Istari or Wizards appeared in Middle-earth.'

1050 The Periannath are first mentioned in records.'

And periannath are Hobbits! It's Elvish so the conclusion is not avoidable.

Thus it probably took Gandalf, who had a great interest in these people [being 'his' people], about 50 years to make halflings... and had he worked on them for another 50 years or so, they might have been taller I guess.

Any and all evidence to the contrary is probably due to srcibal error. Another Tolkien mystery solved!

You are most welcome Tongue


(This post was edited by Elthir on Oct 17 2014, 4:46pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Oct 17 2014, 4:51pm

Post #25 of 29 (634 views)
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Well, if we're going to roll up our sleeves and get silly [In reply to] Can't Post

"Lor" was really Laurelin, of whom Sam was a disciple in a secret cult. Is it any wonder all the trees grew so fast in the Shire after Sam replanted them, and did you really think that silly box of elven pixie dust had anything to do with it?

As a Servant of the Secret Fire, Sam outranked Gandalf, which is why he could tell him "Lor bless you," and that's why he allowed Gandalf as the underling to tackle the Balrog in Moria first, to get some training. If Gandalf hadn't messed up the whole job, Sam would have finished off the beast properly.

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