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delius82
Rivendell
Oct 15 2014, 4:05am
Post #1 of 28
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"Do not speak to me of Dragon Fire!! I have faced its wrath and its ruin."
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When Thranduil speaks that line and we see the flesh on his face disintegrate are we seeing a magical, reinactment of him getting that body-damage or are we watching some magical part of himself turn off?
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Aitieuriskon
Lorien
Oct 15 2014, 4:22am
Post #2 of 28
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I don't think the nature of Thranduil's scar has been confirmed yet. I hope the commentary track on the EE will elucidate this for us. I do think a majority believes the scar to be real and that his beautifying illusion is temporarily lifted for rhetorical effect. This addition has come under a good deal of criticism. I for one don't mind its inclusion, though I would have preferred a brief flashback to the encounter instead. Still, this wouldn't have had the same effect.
"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951
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nymmerod
The Shire
Oct 15 2014, 6:41am
Post #3 of 28
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I feel like they shouldn't have bothered inserting this little backstory snippet into Thranduil's limited dialogue for no reason. Therefore I'm really hoping that either DOS:EE or BOTFA will feature some kind of expository explanation of this and maybe even a glimpse of flashback footage to the related event. And perhaps this can help explain his trepidation in the AUJ prologue about helping the dwarves in their draconic plight. Here's hoping...
http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=96226
(This post was edited by nymmerod on Oct 15 2014, 6:43am)
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Oct 15 2014, 6:49am
Post #4 of 28
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Thranduil's facemelt according to P.Boyens in May'14 Empire edition
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In this post.
"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. " - vanima ephel I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan) Thranduil Appreciation Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August) "BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies ======= Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
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VValar
Gondor
Oct 15 2014, 7:30am
Post #5 of 28
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In general: Thranduil's sudden scars reflect a little-emphasized facet of J.R.R. Tolkien's lore: elves' "Fëa" (a metaphysical concept analogous translatable as "soul") occasionally influences the "Hröa" (the fleshly, physical body), particularly under moments of extreme stress. This can manifest as extreme physical changes that reflect the mind's state, in this case deep war scars. Thranduil: The sudden scars on Thranduil's face are a creation of the film adaptation. According to J.R.R. Tolkien's texts and books, the last battle where Thranduil fought was the last alliance at the end of the Second Age (about 3000 years earlier), where Sauron was defeated. The scars, a creative liberty of the writers, represent a symbol of Thranduil's endurance by war. Courtesy of IMDB
If your ears aren't pointy, you're doing it wrong.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Oct 15 2014, 8:37am
Post #6 of 28
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Yes, the scars are a creation of the film adaptation....
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... but they reflect the fact that Tolkien's Thranduil was also scarred by war, albeit in a different way. It comes into 'Unfinished Tales', so if Peter Jackson and his co-writers were aware of Tolkien's version of the story they couldn't have used it as written for copyright reasons. In the chapter 'History of Galadriel and Celeborn' Thranduil is said to have gone with his father Oropher, leading a large army of Silvan elves into the battle against Mordor. They lost heavily, not being as well-armed as the other elves and also being unwilling to put themselves under Gil-galad's command. Oropher was killed, and when the battle ended Thranduil led home the survivors - barely a third of his father's army. He was deeply scarred by the experience: 'He had seen the horror of Mordor and could not forget it. If ever he looked south its memory dimmed the light of the Sun. . .' When evil began to spread again he withdrew his people northwards from it and eventually established his realm underground. Seems to me the real and psychological scars Thranduil has in the film come pretty close to that, though with an invented backstory.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Oct 15 2014, 8:52am
Post #7 of 28
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That's a very good explanation, Dormouse
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I think it was necessary to explain Thranduil's 'scars of war', and it's a shame the material doing so is not free for the film-makers to use for copyright reasons. The dragon business is a reasonable substitute for the 'facts' (in Tolkien's work), though it would have been great to see a flashback of the battle in which Oropher was killed.
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Oct 15 2014, 9:06am
Post #8 of 28
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Yes, though this is suitably evocative in place of untouchable resources, imo
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"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. " - vanima ephel I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan) Thranduil Appreciation Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August) "BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies ======= Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Oct 15 2014, 9:10am
Post #9 of 28
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Thank you so much, Lurker. Don't know where you (and Avandel) get these things…
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Oct 15 2014, 9:15am
Post #10 of 28
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*Heh* Google helps. But really, Pinterest and tumblr are gold mines for stuff, but you do need to be fortified for "stuff" to cross your eyes (and mind)
"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. " - vanima ephel I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan) Thranduil Appreciation Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August) "BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies ======= Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Oct 15 2014, 11:23am
Post #12 of 28
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As in imbibing the old vino, you mean? Or what pass locally for bracing oneself against the trauma of certain styles of imagery. I am not ashamed to say I have resorted to turning on the child-safety filter just to curb the urge to poke my own eyes out at times.
I like the ashen colouring of that moving image – it seems to suit the coolness of Thranduil, and makes me feel cold because the weather looks so cold. Well said! There are some very talented folks out there. It is quite atmospheric. I picture him walking through the killing fields looking for Oropher actually. Anyways... this reminds me. Got to do my duty and add it to the TA thread
Love the avatar, by the way. Thank you!
"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. " - vanima ephel I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan) Thranduil Appreciation Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August) "BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies ======= Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
(This post was edited by Lurker in the Mirk on Oct 15 2014, 11:26am)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Oct 15 2014, 12:37pm
Post #13 of 28
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I guessed it all then, in some earlier posts!.. How proud I am!!!
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On December 16th, 2013, in a thread on Lee Pace's Thranduil, ignoring all of PB's comments, I elaborated in my own way, simply out of my guesses, about what may have happened in the past, that would explain both the scarring of Thranduil and the absence of his Queen... and his present isolationism too: Why reduce him to that only?... As Fili And in a further post, after doing some background research, I came up with exactly the passage quoted about Thranduil and his father, King Oropher, describing their disastrous encounter with Sauron as part of the Last Alliance...! No wonder he cannot stand hearing from that prisoner Orc that Sauron IS coming back, which always was his worst fear... In Tolkien's further words, which I also quoted: "But there was in Thranduil's heart a still deeper shadow. He had seen the horror of Mordor and couldn't forget it. If ever he looked south its memory dimmed the light of the Sun, and though he knew that it was now broken and deserted and under the vigilance of the Kings of Men, fear spoke in his heart that it was not conquered for ever: it would arise again." Isn't that great? All those insights of mine since all these months are proven right!!! You should see the huge happy grin on my face right now...!
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?' (Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Oct 15 2014, 1:03pm
Post #14 of 28
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I used this very quote in my own guesses, in December
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In Tolkien's words, continued a bit further: "But there was in Thranduil's heart a still deeper shadow. He had seen the horror of Mordor and couldn't forget it. If ever he looked south its memory dimmed the light of the Sun, and though he knew that it was now broken and deserted and under the vigilance of the Kings of Men, fear spoke in his heart that it was not conquered for ever: it would arise again." This was in a post on the historical background of Thranduil. In an earlier post in the same thread, already on December 16th 2013, I had expressed several other insights that are now being confirmed as correct in this present thread!!! Alleluiah, for I knew nothing of what P. Boyens or anybody else had explained... Here were my own guesses then: Why reduce him to that only?... As Fili Thank you, dormouse, for giving me today the joy of seeing all my guesses verified!...
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?' (Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Oct 15 2014, 1:06pm
Post #15 of 28
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'Is everything sad going to come untrue?' (Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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mariel
Lorien
Oct 15 2014, 1:38pm
Post #16 of 28
(634 views)
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Your link in this post didn't work for me, but I searched and found the post you mentioned. What an interesting read. Thank you.
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Oct 15 2014, 1:48pm
Post #17 of 28
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that you found a way to access it... and that you liked it! Trying once again to link to it: Why reduce him to that only?... As Fili
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?' (Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
(This post was edited by mae govannen on Oct 15 2014, 2:02pm)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Oct 15 2014, 2:09pm
Post #18 of 28
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Unable to link...So, copying my old post here for others:
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(From December 16th, 2013) Why reduce him to that only? As Fili points out, in this fleshed out version of Thranduil, "he has got a past and motivations". He is not just the hollow kind of person a really vain King would be. He does have qualities too, his great swordsmanship for example, and his obvious love of Beauty as well as good taste not just for himself but for the whole decoration of his Halls, also speak positively for him, I would say. I wonder who his wife has been - yes, the mother of Legolas - who for some reason doesn't seem to be around any more... Our dear JRRT in his LotR afterthoughts gave a son to Thranduil, but forgot to give a mother to that son!... Perhaps she would have liked Tauriel for her son, even though her husband didn't...! Perhaps she died, although she was an Elf? Perhaps she met her end in the same terrible dragon encounter that caused the secret, still unhealed wound on Thranduil's face??? To me, Thranduil is probably a hardened and disillusioned King, who revels in outer Beauty and Harmony so that at least that remains in his otherwise tragically saddened life in these darkening times. His only purpose by then is to try and make sure that, in the same way, at least this little Kingdom he is responsible for will endure... I like him for this courage and will-power he hides under his apparent vanity.
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?' (Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
(This post was edited by mae govannen on Oct 15 2014, 2:24pm)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Oct 15 2014, 2:12pm
Post #19 of 28
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My link doesn't work; see my old post copied down below...//
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'Is everything sad going to come untrue?' (Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 15 2014, 2:36pm
Post #20 of 28
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The conceit is that Thranduil has faced the great fire-breathing dragons and been scarred by them, physically and emotionally. He’s used the magic of elves to conceal it. That also perhaps explains what’s happened to Legolas’ mum. (Philippa Boyens) Empire, May 2014 So there may be some scars from which even Elves cannot heal. No explanation has ever been given for the absence of Thranduil's queen; for all we know she is alive and well (at least in Tolkien's legendarium). Perhaps she is just shy.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Oct 15 2014, 3:14pm
Post #22 of 28
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Well, she is simply not mentioned anywhere!!!
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I even was surprised by that when I tried to find something about her in the 'legendarium'. So if in the films she is invisible too, at least they have some back-story about her that makes sense... to me anyway, as I thought of exactly the same kind of back-story in an old post last December that I tried to give a link to in this thread, but couldn't, so finally I copied that old post of mine towards the end of this thread, because of those guesses that turn out to be quite correct...
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?' (Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Oct 16 2014, 2:22am
Post #23 of 28
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(the link does not work btw) I came to the same conclusion based on canon, especially the same passage you mentioned about Oropher in the UT (which I suspect many others have too but you know what they say about great minds ). But I am not enamoured of the "conceit" as PB outlined, and will continue to delude myself with the more palatable thought it's the other way round
"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. " - vanima ephel I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan) Thranduil Appreciation Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August) "BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies ======= Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
(This post was edited by Lurker in the Mirk on Oct 16 2014, 2:23am)
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Oct 16 2014, 2:27am
Post #24 of 28
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PB left it vague enough - Mrs Thranduil might just be shy as you say, but the wide open nature of PB's comment seem to also accommodate her departure and therefore his sadness and coldness. Don't like the idea of wounds that Elves cannot heal from... just dampens the immortality of Elves and the vaulted buzz about Elvish medicine, you know though if it's Glaurang grade fire... I'm willing to exceptions for that.
"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. " - vanima ephel I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan) Thranduil Appreciation Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August) "BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies ======= Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Oct 16 2014, 7:43am
Post #25 of 28
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Thanks! Maybe I deserve your congrats
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even more than you think, though, for as I said, it is before searching anything, and so, before reading Tolkien's text in UT, that I got those insights I have written in that old post of mine; they are then all the more remarkable , wouldn't you say , if you did manage to read them in spite of the link not working...! Oh, thank you also for mentioning that fact; my apologies about it... I have in the meantime discovered it myself and copied that old post towards the end of this whole thread, in case you or other people want to read it, like another person did, who found it quite interesting. Please excuse my perhaps excessive enthusiasm about my own insights proven correct... I don't get so often anymore to be on these beloved TORn Boards along with all of you so knowledgeable people, so this small success is rare for me and requires some celebration at least on my own part... Would you mind elaborating about what you mean by "the other way around"?
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?' (Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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