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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
"Do not speak to me of Dragon Fire!! I have faced its wrath and its ruin."
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delius82
Rivendell

Oct 15 2014, 4:05am

Post #1 of 28 (1305 views)
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"Do not speak to me of Dragon Fire!! I have faced its wrath and its ruin." Can't Post

When Thranduil speaks that line and we see the flesh on his face disintegrate are we seeing a magical, reinactment of him getting that body-damage or are we watching some magical part of himself turn off?


Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Oct 15 2014, 4:22am

Post #2 of 28 (894 views)
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No consensus yet [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think the nature of Thranduil's scar has been confirmed yet. I hope the commentary track on the EE will elucidate this for us. I do think a majority believes the scar to be real and that his beautifying illusion is temporarily lifted for rhetorical effect.

This addition has come under a good deal of criticism. I for one don't mind its inclusion, though I would have preferred a brief flashback to the encounter instead. Still, this wouldn't have had the same effect.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


nymmerod
The Shire


Oct 15 2014, 6:41am

Post #3 of 28 (811 views)
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hoping for more on this... [In reply to] Can't Post

I feel like they shouldn't have bothered inserting this little backstory snippet into Thranduil's limited dialogue for no reason. Therefore I'm really hoping that either DOS:EE or BOTFA will feature some kind of expository explanation of this and maybe even a glimpse of flashback footage to the related event.

And perhaps this can help explain his trepidation in the AUJ prologue about helping the dwarves in their draconic plight.

Here's hoping...

http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=96226

(This post was edited by nymmerod on Oct 15 2014, 6:43am)


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Oct 15 2014, 6:49am

Post #4 of 28 (909 views)
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Thranduil's facemelt according to P.Boyens in May'14 Empire edition [In reply to] Can't Post

In this post.

"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. Cool" - vanima ephel



I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan) Smile


Heart Thranduil Appreciation
Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII
I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk




VValar
Gondor


Oct 15 2014, 7:30am

Post #5 of 28 (830 views)
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Thranduil's scars explained [In reply to] Can't Post

In general:

Thranduil's sudden scars reflect a little-emphasized facet of J.R.R. Tolkien's lore: elves' "Fëa" (a metaphysical concept analogous translatable as "soul") occasionally influences the "Hröa" (the fleshly, physical body), particularly under moments of extreme stress. This can manifest as extreme physical changes that reflect the mind's state, in this case deep war scars.


Thranduil:

The sudden scars on Thranduil's face are a creation of the film adaptation. According to J.R.R. Tolkien's texts and books, the last battle where Thranduil fought was the last alliance at the end of the Second Age (about 3000 years earlier), where Sauron was defeated. The scars, a creative liberty of the writers, represent a symbol of Thranduil's endurance by war.



Courtesy of IMDB

If your ears aren't pointy, you're doing it wrong.


dormouse
Half-elven


Oct 15 2014, 8:37am

Post #6 of 28 (785 views)
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Yes, the scars are a creation of the film adaptation.... [In reply to] Can't Post

... but they reflect the fact that Tolkien's Thranduil was also scarred by war, albeit in a different way. It comes into 'Unfinished Tales', so if Peter Jackson and his co-writers were aware of Tolkien's version of the story they couldn't have used it as written for copyright reasons.

In the chapter 'History of Galadriel and Celeborn' Thranduil is said to have gone with his father Oropher, leading a large army of Silvan elves into the battle against Mordor. They lost heavily, not being as well-armed as the other elves and also being unwilling to put themselves under Gil-galad's command. Oropher was killed, and when the battle ended Thranduil led home the survivors - barely a third of his father's army. He was deeply scarred by the experience: 'He had seen the horror of Mordor and could not forget it. If ever he looked south its memory dimmed the light of the Sun. . .' When evil began to spread again he withdrew his people northwards from it and eventually established his realm underground.

Seems to me the real and psychological scars Thranduil has in the film come pretty close to that, though with an invented backstory.


Glorfindela
Valinor


Oct 15 2014, 8:52am

Post #7 of 28 (744 views)
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That's a very good explanation, Dormouse [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it was necessary to explain Thranduil's 'scars of war', and it's a shame the material doing so is not free for the film-makers to use for copyright reasons. The dragon business is a reasonable substitute for the 'facts' (in Tolkien's work), though it would have been great to see a flashback of the battle in which Oropher was killed.


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Oct 15 2014, 9:06am

Post #8 of 28 (745 views)
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Yes, though this is suitably evocative in place of untouchable resources, imo [In reply to] Can't Post



"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. Cool" - vanima ephel



I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan) Smile


Heart Thranduil Appreciation
Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII
I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk




Glorfindela
Valinor


Oct 15 2014, 9:10am

Post #9 of 28 (727 views)
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That's beautifully done! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you so much, Lurker.

Don't know where you (and Avandel) get these things…


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Oct 15 2014, 9:15am

Post #10 of 28 (722 views)
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Welcome, Glorfindela [In reply to] Can't Post

*Heh* Google helps. But really, Pinterest and tumblr are gold mines for stuff, but you do need to be fortified for "stuff" to cross your eyes (and mind)CrazyEvil

"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. Cool" - vanima ephel



I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan) Smile


Heart Thranduil Appreciation
Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII
I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk




Glorfindela
Valinor


Oct 15 2014, 10:21am

Post #11 of 28 (710 views)
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Fortified? [In reply to] Can't Post

As in imbibing the old vino, you mean?

I like the ashen colouring of that moving image – it seems to suit the coolness of Thranduil, and makes me feel cold because the weather looks so cold.

Love the avatar, by the way.


In Reply To
*Heh* Google helps. But really, Pinterest and tumblr are gold mines for stuff, but you do need to be fortified for "stuff" to cross your eyes (and mind)CrazyEvil



(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Oct 15 2014, 10:22am)


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Oct 15 2014, 11:23am

Post #12 of 28 (678 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
As in imbibing the old vino, you mean?

Or what pass locally for bracing oneself against the trauma of certain styles of imagery. I am not ashamed to say I have resorted to turning on the child-safety filter just to curb the urge to poke my own eyes out at times.



In Reply To
I like the ashen colouring of that moving image – it seems to suit the coolness of Thranduil, and makes me feel cold because the weather looks so cold.

Well said! There are some very talented folks out there. It is quite atmospheric. I picture him walking through the killing fields looking for Oropher actually.Unsure

Anyways... this reminds me. Got to do my duty and add it to the TA threadSmile



In Reply To
Love the avatar, by the way.

Thank you!




"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. Cool" - vanima ephel



I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan) Smile


Heart Thranduil Appreciation
Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII
I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk




(This post was edited by Lurker in the Mirk on Oct 15 2014, 11:26am)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Oct 15 2014, 12:37pm

Post #13 of 28 (670 views)
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I guessed it all then, in some earlier posts!.. How proud I am!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

On December 16th, 2013, in a thread on Lee Pace's Thranduil, ignoring all of PB's comments, I elaborated in my own way, simply out of my guesses, about what may have happened in the past, that would explain both the scarring of Thranduil and the absence of his Queen... and his present isolationism too:

Why reduce him to that only?... As Fili

And in a further post, after doing some background research, I came up with exactly the passage quoted about Thranduil and his father, King Oropher, describing their disastrous encounter with Sauron as part of the Last Alliance...!
No wonder he cannot stand hearing from that prisoner Orc that Sauron IS coming back, which always was his worst fear...
In Tolkien's further words, which I also quoted:

"But there was in Thranduil's heart a still deeper shadow. He had seen the horror of Mordor and couldn't forget it. If ever he looked south its memory dimmed the light of the Sun, and though he knew that it was now broken and deserted and under the vigilance of the Kings of Men, fear spoke in his heart that it was not conquered for ever: it would arise again."


Isn't that great? All those insights of mine since all these months are proven right!!!

You should see the huge happy grin on my face right now...! CoolCoolCool


'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Oct 15 2014, 1:03pm

Post #14 of 28 (657 views)
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I used this very quote in my own guesses, in December [In reply to] Can't Post

In Tolkien's words, continued a bit further:

"But there was in Thranduil's heart a still deeper shadow. He had seen the horror of Mordor and couldn't forget it. If ever he looked south its memory dimmed the light of the Sun, and though he knew that it was now broken and deserted and under the vigilance of the Kings of Men, fear spoke in his heart that it was not conquered for ever: it would arise again."

This was in a post on the historical background of Thranduil.
In an earlier post in the same thread, already on December 16th 2013, I had expressed several other insights that are now being confirmed as correct in this present thread!!! Alleluiah, for I knew nothing of what P. Boyens or anybody else had explained... Here were my own guesses then:

Why reduce him to that only?... As Fili

Thank you, dormouse, for giving me today the joy of seeing all my guesses verified!... CoolSmile


'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Oct 15 2014, 1:06pm

Post #15 of 28 (641 views)
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Oooh! How wonderful!...// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


mariel
Lorien

Oct 15 2014, 1:38pm

Post #16 of 28 (634 views)
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Link [In reply to] Can't Post

Your link in this post didn't work for me, but I searched and found the post you mentioned. What an interesting read. Thank you.


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Oct 15 2014, 1:48pm

Post #17 of 28 (646 views)
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Thank you! I am glad [In reply to] Can't Post

that you found a way to access it... and that you liked it! Wink

Trying once again to link to it:

Why reduce him to that only?... As Fili

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)

(This post was edited by mae govannen on Oct 15 2014, 2:02pm)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Oct 15 2014, 2:09pm

Post #18 of 28 (619 views)
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Unable to link...So, copying my old post here for others: [In reply to] Can't Post

(From December 16th, 2013)

Why reduce him to that only?
As Fili points out, in this fleshed out version of Thranduil, "he has got a past and motivations". He is not just the hollow kind of person a really vain King would be. He does have qualities too, his great swordsmanship for example, and his obvious love of Beauty as well as good taste not just for himself but for the whole decoration of his Halls, also speak positively for him, I would say.
I wonder who his wife has been - yes, the mother of Legolas - who for some reason doesn't seem to be around any more... Our dear JRRT in his LotR afterthoughts gave a son to Thranduil, but forgot to give a mother to that son!... Perhaps she would have liked Tauriel for her son, even though her husband didn't...! Perhaps she died, although she was an Elf? Perhaps she met her end in the same terrible dragon encounter that caused the secret, still unhealed wound on Thranduil's face???
To me, Thranduil is probably a hardened and disillusioned King, who revels in outer Beauty and Harmony so that at least that remains in his otherwise tragically saddened life in these darkening times. His only purpose by then is to try and make sure that, in the same way, at least this little Kingdom he is responsible for will endure...
I like him for this courage and will-power he hides under his apparent vanity.


'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)

(This post was edited by mae govannen on Oct 15 2014, 2:24pm)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Oct 15 2014, 2:12pm

Post #19 of 28 (615 views)
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My link doesn't work; see my old post copied down below...// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 15 2014, 2:36pm

Post #20 of 28 (634 views)
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Boyens' explanation... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
The conceit is that Thranduil has faced the great fire-breathing dragons and been scarred by them, physically and emotionally. He’s used the magic of elves to conceal it. That also perhaps explains what’s happened to Legolas’ mum.
(Philippa Boyens) Empire, May 2014



So there may be some scars from which even Elves cannot heal. No explanation has ever been given for the absence of Thranduil's queen; for all we know she is alive and well (at least in Tolkien's legendarium). Perhaps she is just shy.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


dormouse
Half-elven


Oct 15 2014, 2:52pm

Post #21 of 28 (599 views)
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My pleasure! :-) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Oct 15 2014, 3:14pm

Post #22 of 28 (603 views)
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Well, she is simply not mentioned anywhere!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

I even was surprised by that when I tried to find something about her in the 'legendarium'. So if in the films she is invisible too, at least they have some back-story about her that makes sense... to me anyway, as I thought of exactly the same kind of back-story in an old post last December that I tried to give a link to in this thread, but couldn't, so finally I copied that old post of mine towards the end of this thread, because of those guesses that turn out to be quite correct... Cool

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Oct 16 2014, 2:22am

Post #23 of 28 (551 views)
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Congrats... [In reply to] Can't Post

(the link does not work btw)

I came to the same conclusion based on canon, especially the same passage you mentioned about Oropher in the UT (which I suspect many others have too but you know what they say about great minds Laugh). But I am not enamoured of the "conceit" as PB outlined, and will continue to delude myself with the more palatable thought it's the other way roundAngelicSmile

"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. Cool" - vanima ephel



I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan) Smile


Heart Thranduil Appreciation
Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII
I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk




(This post was edited by Lurker in the Mirk on Oct 16 2014, 2:23am)


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Oct 16 2014, 2:27am

Post #24 of 28 (545 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

PB left it vague enough - Mrs Thranduil might just be shy as you say, but the wide open nature of PB's comment seem to also accommodate her departure and therefore his sadness and coldness.

Don't like the idea of wounds that Elves cannot heal from... just dampens the immortality of Elves and the vaulted buzz about Elvish medicine, you knowLaugh though if it's Glaurang grade fire... I'm willing to exceptions for that.Unimpressed

"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. Cool" - vanima ephel



I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan) Smile


Heart Thranduil Appreciation
Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII
I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk




mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Oct 16 2014, 7:43am

Post #25 of 28 (537 views)
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Thanks! Maybe I deserve your congrats [In reply to] Can't Post

even more than you think, though, for as I said, it is before searching anything, and so, before reading Tolkien's text in UT, that I got those insights I have written in that old post of mine; they are then all the more remarkable Cool, wouldn't you say Wink, if you did manage to read them in spite of the link not working...!

Oh, thank you also for mentioning that fact; my apologies about it... I have in the meantime discovered it myself and copied that old post towards the end of this whole thread, in case you or other people want to read it, like another person did, who found it quite interesting.

Please excuse my perhaps excessive enthusiasm about my own insights proven correct...Laugh I don't get so often anymore to be on these beloved TORn Boards along with all of you so knowledgeable people, so this small success is rare for me and requires some celebration at least on my own part... Smile

Would you mind elaborating about what you mean by "the other way around"?


'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)

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