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Bernhardina
Rohan
Oct 11 2014, 8:46pm
Post #1 of 35
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So no more dwarf women then?
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I sort of hoped we would see more of them, beyond what was shown in the prologue of AUJ. Do you think we might see another dwarf woman, perhaps in a flashback of some sort, or a scene with Dain? I really think the design for dwarf women WETA did was beyond epic! I'd love to actually have a character like that in the trilogy, perhaps a friend of Dain or his wife (did he have a wife?) but I guess... in another fantasy movie... sometime in the future... 
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Oct 12 2014, 11:23am
Post #2 of 35
(495 views)
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I am with you, we want more dwarf women, instead of more elven women, well, I guess we need women...gosh I need a girlfriend
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
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Bernhardina
Rohan
Oct 12 2014, 11:54am
Post #3 of 35
(465 views)
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No but seriously  creating Tauriel was sort of the easy way of getting a female character in this story. I'd love it if they would take it further and include a dwarf woman... she could be in one scene - really she could have ONE line for all I care! A heavy nose and a nicely trimmed beard! I would LOVE it! 
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DanielLB
Immortal
Oct 12 2014, 12:14pm
Post #4 of 35
(479 views)
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That some of the Company of Dwarves would be female? At least, that seemed to be circulating well before production on the duology begun.
Maybe they will show Dale and Erebor prospering during Bilbo's epilogue. There might be lots of extras in a scene like that.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 12 2014, 1:37pm
Post #5 of 35
(431 views)
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Well, if Dain knows anything about military strategy and tactics then he would want to establish a supply line between the Iron Hills and Lonely Mountain. There could be Dwarf-women bringing supplies behind the troops. They could show themselves after the battle putting Erebor in order.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Oct 12 2014, 1:59pm
Post #6 of 35
(427 views)
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that Dís had a daughter named Dát who had a daughter named Dé-other?
Dís, Dát, and Dé-other..
And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
- Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.
-John Magee - High Flight
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Oct 12 2014, 2:54pm
Post #8 of 35
(395 views)
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No extra women that aren't in the original story at all. (Can't stand tokenism, myself.) 
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Elanor of Rohan
Lorien
Oct 12 2014, 4:11pm
Post #9 of 35
(385 views)
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Dain had a wife, because his son, named Thorin Stonehelm, will become the next King of Erebor, after his death in the War of the Ring.
But, as usual, we know nothing about this Iron Hills Lady
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MirielCelebel
Rivendell
Oct 12 2014, 4:27pm
Post #10 of 35
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The only female dwarf I will accept is Dis
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if they can work her in somehow without it seeming forced. I personally do not see the purpose of adding women characters where there is none besides political correctness, which is the worst possible reason to add ANY character. Tauriel is not needed, the story can continue without her, and in fact it did....for over 75 years. If they add Thorin's sister, in a meaningful and emotional way RELEVANT TO THE STORY, then I will accept it.
"The Road goes ever on..."
Writing Bliss
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 12 2014, 5:37pm
Post #11 of 35
(368 views)
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Dain had a wife, because his son, named Thorin Stonehelm, will become the next King of Erebor, after his death in the War of the Ring. But, as usual, we know nothing about this Iron Hills Lady
I would be fine if Dain's queen joined him by the time that good-byes are said and Bilbo and Gandalf take their leave. One would expect that Dain would have established supply lines behind him when he marched on Lonely Mountain. His Lady might have been the type to personally take charge of such an effort.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Oct 13 2014, 3:48am
Post #13 of 35
(306 views)
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There are women in Thranduil's army, so why not women in Dain's?
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Tauriel isn't the only female Elven warrior. So perhaps the great Affirmative Action and PC'ness movement will carry through to Dain's host as well.
Would have been nice to see Dis, the actual and only female book-Dwarf, but that doesn't seem likely, or the implicit book-existant/extant(?) ones like wives of Gloin, Dain, Thror, Thrain at least. But that ship's long sailed, imo, as with seeing female book-Elves.
I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan) 
 Thranduil Appreciation
Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVII
I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
=======
 Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
(This post was edited by Lurker in the Mirk on Oct 13 2014, 3:53am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 13 2014, 2:28pm
Post #14 of 35
(265 views)
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There are women in Thranduil's army, so why not women in Dain's? Tauriel isn't the only female Elven warrior. So perhaps the great Affirmative Action and PC'ness movement will carry through to Dain's host as well.
Well, even Tolkien wrote that many Dwarf-women never marry, either out of lack of desire or because an intended husband is unavailable. Some of those would doubtless become craftpersons; why shouldn't some be professional warriors? We have already seen that female Dwarves seem to have less restrictions placed on them in these films than what Tolkien described in the legendarium.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Jettorex
Lorien
Oct 13 2014, 2:53pm
Post #15 of 35
(253 views)
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Other than the drawn portrait of Gloins wife he had with him where have we seen dwarf women? You mentioned the prologue of AUJ but I don't remember seeing any-not in any detailed or close up way. If there were I missed it unfortunately.
Would it be possible for anyone to post some screen shots from the movie, maybe blown up or enhanced, so we could get a better look at them????
Thanks in advance!
- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
My Book---> www.amazon.com/Popcornmaker
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 13 2014, 7:21pm
Post #17 of 35
(237 views)
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Other than the drawn portrait of Gloins wife he had with him where have we seen dwarf women? You mentioned the prologue of AUJ but I don't remember seeing any-not in any detailed or close up way. If there were I missed it unfortunately.
Would it be possible for anyone to post some screen shots from the movie, maybe blown up or enhanced, so we could get a better look at them????
Thanks in advance!
We see Dwarf-women in the flashback(s) to Dale before the coming of Smaug. Ironically, I don't remember ever seeing any withing Erebor.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 13 2014, 7:23pm)
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Jettorex
Lorien
Oct 13 2014, 9:11pm
Post #18 of 35
(219 views)
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Beards!!
- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
My Book---> www.amazon.com/Popcornmaker
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Oct 14 2014, 2:03am
Post #19 of 35
(211 views)
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Well, even Tolkien wrote that many Dwarf-women never marry, either out of lack of desire or because an intended husband is unavailable. Some of those would doubtless become craftpersons; why shouldn't some be professional warriors? Right. That's a good point. But Tolkien also wrote that Dwarf women hardly ever leave home and are almost never sighted by non-Dwarves... unless non-Dwarves are really bad at distinguishing men from women, in which case, we could have seen Dwarf-ladies without knowing it. (And I have ot start looking seriously at the Gimli is a girl theory) But humour me for a moment. If it's really just the nature of Dwarf-women to not leave home, wouldn't joining Dain's military excursion as warriors break these key characteristics with one fell stroke? Still they can be in the army: I can see them doing the back-end and support stuff - logistics, healing, strategising etc. But unless Dwarven intra-race violence and wars are run-of-mill at the time, I don't see how women warriors would have clocked up the mileage so to speak, if they are hardly ever abroad at all. So would even the best warrior training and mock war-games prepare them for the realities and PTSD of combat action? I doubt Dain would appreciate having to deal with a contingent of gibbering newbies overwhelmed during combat, however minor an exercise might seem at the get-go. Unless, unless the idea was to blood them given the likely perception that BoFA would prolly be a game of bluster of brinksmanship.
On the other side of the coin, Tolkien also wrote among Elves, women tend towards healing and creative crafts vocationally, and it's men who tend to do the violent stuff. Sure, there are always exceptions and Elf-women do take up arms at need, according to the prof. But just with these notes from the prof, imo, and BoFA not a planned military operation like the Wars of FA or even SA, I believe if there are any Elf/Dwarf women, they would be the exception rather than the rule, if the prof's notes were stuck to in developing the story. Which is why I worded my original response the way I did, because hey dry humour, and foreseeing OTT from PJ and crew just running with the idea.
We have already seen that female Dwarves seem to have less restrictions placed on them in these films than what Tolkien described in the legendarium. Ok, genuine question: Have we?
"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy.  " - vanima ephel
I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan)
Thranduil Appreciation
Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVII
I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
(This post was edited by Lurker in the Mirk on Oct 14 2014, 2:03am)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Oct 14 2014, 12:24pm
Post #20 of 35
(197 views)
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Dwarf-women do not go to war...
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... according to JRRT (see War of the Jewels). And that's the only way other folks can tell them apart actually (except possibly for garb, except they dress just like Men when they rarely leave their halls and bowers).
Jackson has already altered Tolkien's true Dwarf-women in any case. Some film fans argue that Peter Jackson can do whatever he wants in the film, others seem to want to fit whatever he does into what Tolkien wrote.
Sure, there are always exceptions and Elf-women do take up arms at need, according to the prof. But just with these notes from the prof, imo, and BoFA not a planned military operation like the Wars of FA or even SA, I believe if there are any Elf/Dwarf women, they would be the exception rather than the rule, if the prof's notes were stuck to in developing the story.
Tolkien allowed for no exceptions regarding Dwarf-women that I'm aware of. He explicitly and generally (or sweepingly) states that they do not go to war.
'For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike; nor indeed can their womankind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature or in gait or in voice, nor in any wise save this: that they go not to war, and seldom save at direst need issue from their deep bowers and halls.' JRRT The Later Quenta Silmarillion
As for Elves, it is explained that Elven men took up arms at need (war, in my opinion), and Elven women rather fought 'in dire straits or desperate defence' which in my opinion means: when given no other choice, like Idril in Gondolin or Galadriel at Swanhaven (in a late text): in other words (and to generalize), when attacked.
But again it's just a film. Jackson has already changed the books, so why not here too. In fact if he is going to include Dwarf-women... he arguably 'has to' change Tolkien's idea... since the audience, not being Dwarves, would not otherwise 'see' any Dwarf-women (again, garb aside).
These Dwarf-women (in the films) are clearly women with some facial hair, no matter how they are dressed. They are already a film invention different from the books.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Oct 14 2014, 12:34pm)
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Oct 14 2014, 12:39pm
Post #21 of 35
(186 views)
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Thanks for the info and the reading rec, Elthir
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Great details, and much appreciated.
But again it's just a film. Jackson has already changed the books, so why not here too. In fact if he is going to include Dwarf-women... he arguably 'has to' change Tolkien's idea... since the audience, not being Dwarves, would not otherwise 'see' any Dwarf-women. Was there an audience need to see Dwarf-women though? If it's for completion, I just feel that Gimli's (somewhat regrettably comic) info-dispensation to Eowyn addressed it. I just feel that any Dwarf-women warriors who might appear on screen is an issue/point that goes back to what is, imo, unnecessary pandering to social expectation and those two sets of overused acronyms again.
These Dwarf-women (in the films) are clearly women with some facial hair, no matter how they are dressed. They are already a film invention different from the books. Agreed. As are Elf-woman warriors.
"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. " - vanima ephel
I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan)
Thranduil Appreciation
Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII
I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
(This post was edited by Lurker in the Mirk on Oct 14 2014, 12:39pm)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Oct 14 2014, 12:53pm
Post #22 of 35
(186 views)
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Was there an audience need to see Dwarf-women though?
I would say no; but what is 'needed' will always be subjective I guess, and in my opinion, generally speaking, often hard to defend as well.
I have a very (very) long list regarding what I think wasn't needed in all five films so far
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Oct 14 2014, 12:55pm
Post #23 of 35
(176 views)
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"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. " - vanima ephel
I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan)
Thranduil Appreciation
Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII
I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Oct 14 2014, 1:07pm
Post #24 of 35
(184 views)
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By the way I should add, about the LQS (Later Quenta Silmarillion) quote above, that one could argue that Tolkien 'rejected' this passage, as (if I recall correctly) it does not appear in a later version that Christopher Tolkien used for the constructed Silmarillion.
I argue that Tolkien did not reject the concepts here but thought that it should be Gimli who reveals certain 'secret' information -- and so we find him referenced in Appendix A concerning information about the Dwarves. That said, even in Appendix A the wording differs: I still think it says the same thing about Dwarf-women looking just like Dwarf-men to other folk (among other things)...
... but if I recall correctly the specific statement about Dwarf-women and 'war' from LQS is not found in Appendix A. Just to note it.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Oct 14 2014, 1:14pm)
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Oct 14 2014, 1:13pm
Post #25 of 35
(179 views)
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*steam rising out of top of head*
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I will need time to digest and make sense of it all  But thanks!
"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. " - vanima ephel
I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan)
Thranduil Appreciation
Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XVIII
I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVI
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare! Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
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