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Arannir
Valinor
Oct 9 2014, 8:13am
Post #1 of 16
(453 views)
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Just one thought about closing threads.
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I know you guys want this to be a Tolkien forum where all Tolkien fans can exchange their views.
Political and religious debates have their palce in the Pollantir or the Off Topic Forum and I totally understand your reasoning for being very strict there when it comes to violations of the rules.
However, I cannot help but being disappointed how this policy leads to good discussions being locked and closed often only because of one or two people and their behaviour. Others who had an exciting discussion come back the next day and cannot respond anymore other than maybe writing a PM (but of course usually it is more than one person one talked to).
It is sad and I think it comes at a high cost for the livliness of these board. Sometimes I wonder whether it wouldn't be better to just delete the posts which violated the rules and eventually ban a user who repeatedly violates them - especially when the admins themselves think that a discussion has "gone very well".
Just my two cents...
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Altaira
Superuser
Oct 9 2014, 2:18pm
Post #2 of 16
(370 views)
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It *is* sad, and I'm disappointed too.
I'll never quite understand why someone who has a perfectly good opinion, made otherwise civilly, feels the need to include insults to the person they're replying to, as if that's going to better make their point. It almost always just prompts a defensive reply from the insulted person, then more people join in on one or both sides, and the whole discussion goes downhill. It's not just politics and religion that prompts it. It happens often on the Hobbit board too. I guess it's human nature when certain people feel very strongly about certain things, that they react defensively to people who disagree with them which, of course, is totally counter to having a civil, productive discussion.
Sometimes I wonder whether it wouldn't be better to just delete the posts which violated the rules
That's exactly what we did, and always try to do in these situations. In fact, insults were first just edited out (which we always try to do before deleting a post). I then posted a warning in the thread - our usual next course of action. However, when an Admin request/warning fails, it's a sign that the whole thread is about to implode because, at a minimum, the people who had their posts edited or deleted just can't let it go. So yes, plain and simple, they ruin it for everyone else.
and eventually ban a user who repeatedly violates them - especially when the admins themselves think that a discussion has "gone very well"
We do, of course, occasionally have to resort to banning people who consistently insult others, but this involved well-established users who are normally civil and polite. But, from my experience, that's what political/religious threads often do - make people who are otherwise civil and polite resort to insults. That's why they often get locked or deleted.
this policy leads to good discussions being locked and closed often
There are two good political/religious discussions going on on the Pollantir that haven't been locked or deleted. But, we constantly have to watch them (as insults have already been edited out of one of them). That, plus watching the often-heated Hobbit board which is running along at a pace of well over 200 posts per day, plus keeping an eye on all the other boards, can be a full-time job as it is. Once insults start, and continue, we don't have extra time to babysit one thread. Plus, we can't snip things the second they occur, so the insults stay up for a while, hurting and angering the people who've been insulted as well as damaging the tone of the whole board and the whole site.
Civil political/religious discussions can, and sometimes do, have a place here. But, once the tone changes for the worse, and violate our terms of service, they will be locked or deleted lest TORn become just another site where insults are the norm. I'm pretty sure no one here wants that to happen.
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
(This post was edited by Altaira on Oct 9 2014, 2:26pm)
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Magpie
Immortal
Oct 9 2014, 3:01pm
Post #3 of 16
(359 views)
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I, personally, see no need to have political discussions on TORn. They have never, in my experience, solidified or improved the community. In almost all cases, they lead to divisiveness and hurt feeling often among people who have previously gotten along very well.
I know that tastes vary and it may seem necessary to some to have these sorts of discussions to 'enliven' the boards.
I'm at a place in my life where, if this is what 'lively' entails... I don't want it.
I am personally dismayed at the increase in political threads here. I am dismayed that even when the staring topic is set at 'neutral' there are many who feel they need to push it to 'controversial'.
I am actively avoiding those threads and, if need be, I will find other places to spend my time if the topics here become too politically skewed.
Also, as a person who has moderated in other capacities, I will support some of what Altaira said. There is so much that went on 'behind the scenes' so to speak. Person A says something mildly insulting to another. Person B comes back with an inflated response. Person A ups their ante. Person C jumps in and gets way out of line. We can't let Person C's comments stand but if we delete them... then it seems we are taking someone else's side. Do we go all the way back to Person A who used one word that set this all off and delete everything? Then we get flack from people who were deleted. For some subjects, mods can be sorting through dozens of these posts and that, combined with any blowback we get from moderating... one can find themselves immersed in a kind of ugly mentality for an hour or more ... often numerous times a day.
I'd say 'we dont' get paid enough' but we all know, almost always.. mods/admins are volunteers.
Sometimes, mods will shut down a thread (not talking about TORn message boards ... I'm not a mod on these boards) just because we're tired of all the bickering and negativity. I liken it to a parent who has had enough with the squabbling children. Enough! go outside and play ... or go spend some time in your rooms away from each other. Time Out. Take a breath. Calm down.
And when that happens.. the good, civil people get shut down along with all the bickering folk. If it helps any ... I am sorry that happens. But it's life, too. Sometimes the club gets closed early when some folk can't keep their behavior in check.
LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide
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Arannir
Valinor
Oct 9 2014, 3:31pm
Post #4 of 16
(361 views)
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I understand your reasoning and you certainly don't have to defend yourself.
It indeed remains a shame. I for one would like TORN to have these debates, contrasting to Magpie.... I think it often helps to have the unifying love for Tolkien and it makes it much more pleasant for those kind of topics.
Anyway, I cannot solve this riddle. Just felt strongly about this and wanted to share my opinion.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Meneldor
Valinor
Oct 9 2014, 5:30pm
Post #6 of 16
(356 views)
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that have one area set aside especially for controversial topics like politics and religion. The idea is to have a place where those so inclined can discuss and debate, while those who prefer more tranquility can simply not go there.
Has that ever been considered for TORn?
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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Darkstone
Immortal
Oct 9 2014, 5:36pm
Post #7 of 16
(350 views)
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I remember it being discussed.
[In reply to]
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As I recall the OP got abusive and the thread had to be locked.
It was classic irony.
******************************************
"My friend,” said Gandalf, “you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonoured dotage; and her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on.
“Think you that Wormtongue had poison only for Théoden's ears? ‘Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among their dogs?’ Have you not heard those words before? Saruman spoke them, the teacher of Wormtongue. Though I do not doubt that Wormtongue at home wrapped their meaning in terms more cunning. My lord, if your sister's love for you, and her will still bent to her duty, had not restrained her lips; you might have heard even such things as these escape them. But who knows what she spoke to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in?”
“I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
And I’ll be on my way!
“If a land don't understand you,
No matter how many regimes,
Saddle up, do not wait,
Don’t waste time at the weapontake.
Muster out of that roll call.
Ride Windfola out to your dreams!
“If the house of Eorl is nothing more,
Than a barn where brigands drink,
Their brats and dogs roll on the floor,
Then you know what the door is for,
Muster out of that roll call,
Wash Rohan into the sink!
“I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
And I’ll be on my way!"
-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Oct 9 2014, 5:37pm)
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Oct 9 2014, 5:44pm
Post #9 of 16
(335 views)
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I've seen a site that had that
[In reply to]
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and noticed that the contentious nature of their 'hot topics' board tended to stain the atmosphere of the others as well. (That's a personal opinion, not an adminly one.) The decision to make all the discussion boards family friendly was made by the site owners, for what it's worth.
To be fair, the TORN community does pretty well with discussion sensitive topics. Time was, we had to outright ban any political and religious discussion because they always went down in flames, but these days more often than not a discussion can play out without a major meltdown occurring - although the admins do keep a close eye on them so that we can step in quickly if trouble arises.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Oct 9 2014, 6:05pm
Post #10 of 16
(355 views)
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However, in my limited experience, there were many cases of direct transference of the emotions stirred up in one controversial thread, to another, more benign one. 'Because you don't agree with my political stance, I will post in the Cat-lover thread that you and your cat are ugly.' (I am not even kidding...) In the end, I think that because a myriad of harmless discussions are only a few clicks away from heated ones, there is an unavoidable spill-over. Just think about how many people have escalated Net-issues into the real world and hurt someone...or worse.
IMO, it boils down to the fact that we are all humans. We act on emotion and feeling just as much as logic and reason-- if not more. If we can't control ourselves, or keep the different parts of our lives properly separate, then the fault lies with us, and no one else. The Admins and Mods are not here to be our online-parents, (Though, sadly they seem to be forced to act in such a capacity  ) but are here to ensure that order is kept with a minimum of chaos. In the end, they have to choose where to draw a fine line between freedom of speech, and the order they seek to maintain by setting standards for us to follow.
In conclusion, I don't think that any 'solution' that might be adopted will take care of these kinds of recurrent issues. Human are not rule-following by nature, and no imposed code of conduct can change that. Just because we post the RULES in big letters will not instantly improve anyone's personal conduct. As I said, the issue lies within each of us and the choice we make-- to follow those rules, or not. The rest is for the hardworking Mods to decide. Fortunately, unto this day we have had a wonderful majority of civil members and moderators who have dealt with any apparent issues with the utmost discretion and tact. If I had to summarise my whole post. I'd say that:
The health and well-being of this site relies upon the attitudes and actions of those that constitute it.
Let's all do our best to do our part to keep TORn the wonderful haven amidst the maelstrom of the stormy seas of the Interweb.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
(This post was edited by Rembrethil on Oct 9 2014, 6:07pm)
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Inferno
Superuser
/ Moderator
Oct 9 2014, 7:50pm
Post #11 of 16
(329 views)
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Every time I see your footer, Rem, I'm always repressing an urge to reply with a one word message: "Australia"
Inferno.
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Good night, tOR.Nados. Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely delete you in the morning.
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Donry
Tol Eressea
Oct 9 2014, 8:44pm
Post #12 of 16
(316 views)
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not see the battles about religion and politics on here. It is one of the big reasons I come to these boards. There are a lot of other boards I can go to if I want read folks informed and uninformed opinions on those subjects. I come here for Tolkien, and the odd off-topic post from some of the members. The religious and political debates aren't necessary here imho.
What's the matter, James? No glib remark? No pithy comeback?"
Twitter - @DonryFetor
FB - https://www.facebook.com/donryfetortheouthouse
Instagram - donryfetor
Blog - donryfetorsouthouse.wordpress.com
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Arannir
Valinor
Oct 10 2014, 7:37am
Post #13 of 16
(285 views)
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... for investing so much time in moderating these boards.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Oct 10 2014, 4:46pm
Post #14 of 16
(281 views)
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Hmmm.... Maybe it's time for a change then... If I could only figure out where I am!!! 
Is there a reason for that place specifically? 
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Inferno
Superuser
/ Moderator
Oct 10 2014, 5:05pm
Post #15 of 16
(275 views)
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is this bit from The Princess Bride.
Vizzini: Not remotely. Because iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.
Man in Black: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
Vizzini: Wait till I get going! Now, where was I?
Man in Black: Australia.
Inferno.
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Good night, tOR.Nados. Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely delete you in the morning.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Oct 10 2014, 5:14pm
Post #16 of 16
(317 views)
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I had forgotten about that! I clearly need to watch The Princess Bride again...
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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As another aside...
[