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Glassary
Rivendell
Sep 30 2014, 4:50pm
Post #51 of 66
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OMG Eruvandi reading back and forth about the various elves, Teleri, Avari and probably Keebler was in there somewhere was getting me so confused.
But your Feren comment was the best and I do hope he doesn't die. But if so he needs to go out blowing that horn.
Feren will be the Haldir of BotFA and he will die on camera during battle. Poor, poor Feren.  Hopefully they'll at least let him toot his horn one last time... *sniff* |
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Cirashala
Valinor
Sep 30 2014, 5:35pm
Post #52 of 66
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I know you are FAR more well versed in Tolkien than I am, but regarding languages I have a theory:
It is possible that the Silvan tongue was a closer, more unchanged version from the original tongue spoken by the elves at Cuvienen than the tongues of elves that passed into Beleriand and beyond.
We know from Tolkien's linguistic texts that the elvish languages changed greatly over the passing of the ages. It would stand to reason that, from their time in Valinor, the Noldorin tongue morphed from the original. The Sindarin tongue could well have morphed as well, given that they were separated by quite the distance from the Vales of the Anduin in their time in Beleriand.
And once the Noldorin, whose language mixed with that of Valinor, returned to Beleriand, the language intermingled with Sindarin and changed even more.
So perhaps the tongue the Silvan elves speak is actually a "more pure" version of the original Cuvienen elvish due to their isolation from Beleriand (where I believe there was an intermingling of Valinorian (sp?) elvish, Quenya, and Sindarin over thousands of years), and due to their likely isolation from other peoples and their tongues as well.
That would explain why the Silvan tongue varied so greatly from that of the Sindarin/Quenya tongues from those who were either Beleriand Teleri or those who had either been born in Valinor (Galadriel) or were a part of the Noldor after. It may have even been different enough that there was minimal ability to understand each other at that point. That would also explain why the ruling elves over the Silvan ones had to learn their language.
I don't know what texts of Tolkien support this theory, but it seems as good of a guess as any other. Plus, if we go by his conceit for his stories, then the elves of Beleriand wrote the annals of the Silmarillion, and therefore their ability to understand/distinguish the language of the Silvan elves would be colored by their own perception (we can't understand them, so it must be a different language altogether).
The one thing I do know for certain is that his elvish languages evolved greatly over time. But it could explain things more clearly 
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 30 2014, 6:28pm
Post #53 of 66
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I don't have a lot of time right now, to respond to this as I would like, but anyway here is the scenario -- that I think I understand -- in very simplified form.
Common (archaic) language of all Elves at the Waters of Awakening
First major split into Eldarin and Avarin branches. Common Eldarin is spoken by the Marchers for a time -- the Avarin languages split at points, but little is known of them; Tolkien gives the reader a number of different Avarin words based on the primitive word kwendi... Avarin Penni for instance shows the change of kw- to p-, and arguably -nd- to -nn-.
The Silmarillion index loosely refers to Quenya as 'the ancient tongue, common to all Elves, in the form it took in Valinor.' The Vanyar speak a dialect of it compared to the Noldor in Aman. The Telerin version splits off enough to be called Telerin by the Teleri, although some considered it a dialect of Quenya too.
The Exiled Noldor bring Exilic Quenya back to Middle-earth with them.
In Middle-earth Sindarin had hailed from Common Telerin, itself hailing from Common Eldarin, Sindarin being a branch of certain Telerin Elves who remained in Beleriand (various types of Sindarin). Sindarin had changed from the very first Elvish language (by the Waters of Awakening) far more than Quenya had in Aman.
The Noldor return, and largely adopt Sindarin in order to speak with the Sindar -- plus Thingol's later edict doesn't help Quenya. I'm greatly simplifying this matter, but generally speaking Sindarin becomes the birth tongue of the Noldor in Middle-earth, even if it's sometimes Quenya influenced among them.
What about the Nandor of the Anduin Vale? Technically their tongues (I think) should ultimately fall under an 'Eldarin branch', but that's what I'm wondering, if there is a way to devise a language tree that agrees with The Lord of the Rings as published (and not revised in the 1960s either, with respect to Appendix F and the non-Eldarin languages of these East-elves).
Or to put it another way, does this 'force' Tolkien to say that the East-elves of Mirkwood and Lorien must be Avarin?
I think you are correct in that the tongue or tongues of the Nandor should change (or could change, in some measure I would think) after a period of isolation from the more Western Teleri. But how much? Hmm. Not that it's an answer but I think Nandorin would probably be different from various Avarin tongues too, again speaking generally and not allowing for more detailed migrations in which languages can influence each other, with people coming into contact, or back into contact...
... but anyway in the event Tolkien decides not to (in theory) actually revise Appendix F, that is, if he tries to work with what's already in print, what is 'needed' as far as the Silvan tongues go, if JRRT wants to have these Silvan Elves be 'Eldar in origin' [UT] but their languages yet 'not Eldarin', as published in LOTR?
Just to note it: the Nandorin of the Etymologies was imagined within a wholly different, earlier, linguistic (historical) scenario. Tolkien only made his great changes relatively late in the writing of The Lord of the Rings and Appendices.
Again that's a simplified version... but I hope correct enough in that light!
(This post was edited by Elthir on Sep 30 2014, 6:42pm)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 30 2014, 7:07pm
Post #54 of 66
(467 views)
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Avarin Penni for instance shows the change of kw- to p-, and arguably -nd- to -nn-.
In this word anyway -- Penni from Kwendi. I don't mean to say that in the Avarin language in which the form penni exists, that every instance of -nd- will become -nn-.
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cats16
Half-elven
Oct 1 2014, 12:35am
Post #55 of 66
(437 views)
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Your research is fantastic, Elthir.
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Each post is a treasure of information. Just a thank you to you, despite not participating in this thread.
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Oct 1 2014, 1:15am
Post #56 of 66
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Tauriel has a ticket to The Halls of Mandros.
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I do not think Peter would be foolish enough to keep her from a hero's death. KS
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Oct 1 2014, 11:37am
Post #58 of 66
(429 views)
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So perhaps the tongue the Silvan elves speak is actually a "more pure" version of the original Cuvienen elvish due to their isolation from Beleriand (where I believe there was an intermingling of Valinorian (sp?) elvish, Quenya, and Sindarin over thousands of years), and due to their likely isolation from other peoples and their tongues as well.
I had some time to do a little text searching, and in Words, Phrases And Passages (I didn't check it fully however) Tolkien seems ready to explain Frodo's statement about the Speech of Lorien (being unlike that of the West) as being due to Sindarin spoken with an accent, although he generally says it's possible that a Nandorin tongue survived in the Anduin Vale.
In a late note (The Silvan Elves And Their Speech, Unfinished Tales) Tolkien wrote: 'Although the dialects of the Silvan Elves, when they again met their long separated kindred, had so far diverged from Sindarin as to be hardly intelligible, little study was needed to reveal their kinship to Eldarin tongues. Though the comparison of the Silvan dialects with their own speech interested the loremasters, especially those of Noldorin origin, little is now known of the Silvan Elvish. The Silvan Elves had invented no forms of writing, and those who learned this art from the Sindar wrote in Sindarin as well as they could. By the end of the Third Age the Silvan tongues had probably ceased to be spoken in the two regions that had importance at the time of the War of the Ring: Lorien and the realm of Thranduil in northern Mirkwood. All that survived of them in the records was a few words and several names of persons and places.'
I'm not saying that that's the idea Tolkien certainly or necessarily finally landed on*** but I get the impression, at least, that the Nandorin of the Anduin Vale had also changed much compared to the archaic tongue of the Elves of the Waters of Awakening, in the changefulness of mortal lands and over the very many years, especially without writing for some time.
By comparison, although Quenya had developed and changed in Aman somewhat, it remained archaic (and closer to Primitive Elvish) by comparison to Sindarin for example. Quenya also became a language of books and lore, an 'Elf latin' so to speak, as again, in time Sindarin became the living tongue of the Noldor and Sindar.
__________
***That quoted, the matter of the speech of Mirkwood seems a bit knotty, but we might keep in mind (in any case) that readers have access to various passages JRRT himself had not published.
In a 'late' text published in Unfinished Tales it was said Oropher (father of Thranduil father of Legolas) and some Sindar merged with the Silvan Elves 'adopting their language' In another late text (same book and the one I quoted above) it was said that by the end of the Third Age the Silvan tongues had probably ceased to be spoken in Lórien and the Realm of Thranduil. According to another passage (again described as 'late') Sindarin was said to be used in Thranduil's house -- thus used by his son Legolas one would expect -- 'though not by all his folk.'
And in a letter dated Dec. 1972 (another late example!) Tolkien explained that: 'The Silvan Elves of Thranduil's realm did not speak S. but a related language or dialect.'
This last mention is pretty late, but anyway, again, Tolkien himself published (Appendix F) that in Lórien at this period Sindarin was spoken, though with an 'accent', since most of its folk were of Silvan origin.
So we can say this much, at least
(This post was edited by Elthir on Oct 1 2014, 11:39am)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Oct 1 2014, 11:45am
Post #59 of 66
(405 views)
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Too kind! But if a Tolkien linguist like Aelfwine (who used to post here anyway) for example, pops in this thread and sets me straight about some things... don't be surprised!
I won't be 
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DwellerInDale
Rohan
Oct 1 2014, 12:52pm
Post #60 of 66
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Meanwhile, Back at the Quote in Question...
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Here is the actual full quote from the magazine:
"In the third film, there is a lot of resolution to her story", Lilly tells Total Film of her bow-wielding warrior. "Of course, she's an elf, so she lives forever. You don't get an ending, you just get a resolution to this particular part of her story". That resolution, she says, is likely to have some of her own stamp on it, too..."This team of writers- Peter, Fran [Walsh] and Philippa [Boyens]- are the most collaborative, open, generous team I've ever encountered in 10 years in the business. From the very beginning, they said, 'We've scratched out what this character's going to be, but we actually haven't made anything solid, because we've been waiting to see who we cast. And hopefully that person will help us build the character.' I've had an amazing time with them figuring out who she is. I think that she is a character that for the rest of my life I'll be really proud to have played. The idea of being a part of cinema history is really exciting."
----Evangeline Lilly on playing Tauriel in BOFA
This is by far the strongest hint we've had that Tauriel doesn't actually die.
Don't mess with my favorite female elf.
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
Oct 1 2014, 5:54pm
Post #61 of 66
(407 views)
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I hadn't even dared to hope she survives! I love her to pieces but I hadn't even left myself believe that she might make it.
"And so they stood on the walls of the city of Gondor, and a great wind rose and blew, and their hair, raven and golden, streamed out mingling in the air."
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Avandel
Half-elven
Oct 1 2014, 8:02pm
Post #63 of 66
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Of course, she's an elf, so she lives forever.
To me this would imply that ALL elves live forever, since they are immortal. But we've all seen elves die. So could this also be implying, for the first time in the LOTR world, we'll see a sort of "death" that really is depicted as fading into starlight, or moving to another plane of existence (as opposed to Haldir and all those elves that fell into the river and the one that Bolg took out and so on...). E.g. where these immortal elves aren't "dead" the way we think of it, they are just "elsewhere"? I don't know enough canon to know if elves can actually die, or not - they seem to have died, and often, in PJ's world - and what about the bodies that lie in the marshes? "Men, and elves, and orcses...."
Actually (and wisely) the more I read this, the more it doesn't seem to be saying anything, really. And I am sure the actors all are under the strictest contractual obligation to NOT disclose pertinent details, so that's OK.
Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu
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Avandel
Half-elven
Oct 1 2014, 8:28pm
Post #64 of 66
(369 views)
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Nice perspective Dormouse - as always
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And - with deference to Tauriel's many fans - it's hard for me to discuss her, because my feelings have always been so mixed. On the one hand thinking she's fine (and it could have been a lot worse) and on the other hand irritated - and, as you say, because of the focus the filmmakers have taken, e.g. should she die in battle I have no doubt there will be a focus on that aspect, which would annoy me - LOL already being stressed out over what I KNOW is going to happen to my favorites  and also am hoping my dwarves, as fighters, get their moment - each and every one.
Aaaagh! But anyway as always you have made some excellent points. My comment about PJ "loving his dwarves" actually is the result of the inclusion of Tauriel, and to some degree Legolas, at all. But that's an old topic that's gone round, and round before, and this is what we have for THIS Hobbit. Who is to say that if PJ had not taken the road he did, he might have done something that I would personally have found far more distressing and/or boring - and happily I haven't found Tauriel to be boring, in any way.
Well, yes, I do suspect *sigh* there will be quite a lot of interest on the "Durins" - in that I have been thinking that the battle will be precluded by so many interactions with Thorin, Fili and Kili that I think will touch the heart - probably a scene of Thorin agonizing over the dragon, and the reunion. Scenes that are going to quite engage the audience with this family and its dynamics.
Anyway, thank you as always for your balance, thoughtful perspective. It's good for me to not have tunnel vision.
Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu
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Loresilme
Valinor
Oct 1 2014, 9:32pm
Post #65 of 66
(362 views)
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Amazing, thank you for all that background! *bows*
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cats16
Half-elven
Oct 2 2014, 6:44am
Post #66 of 66
(350 views)
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Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
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