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Shagrat
Gondor
Sep 29 2014, 6:20pm
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Final guesses as to how the Thrain arc will play out in the EE?
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So within a few weeks we will finally discover what role Thrain has to play in these films, and I for one can't wait. Will we see how he gave the map and key to Gandalf? How he went missing after Azanulbizar? How important will the last of the seven be? And what information will he impart to Gandalf before passing?
A key issue for me will is everything involving Thrain BEFORE he turns up at Dol Guldur. Now obviously at Bree Gandalf and Thorin speak about Thrain going missing. Let's recap what we know in a narrative sense (in the films):
- In AUJ, while relating the story of the battle of Azanulbizar, Balin discloses the following after stating that Azog beheaded Thror:
"Thrain, Thorin's father, was driven mad by grief. He went missing, taken prisoner or killed; we did not know."
So the last time anyone saw Thrain for sure was at this battle. The most logical conclusion is that Thrain ventured into Moria, to pursue the wounded Azog. If we presume that Azog attacked Thorin almost immediately after throwing the head at him, then Thrain would have had little time to react. He may have been momentarily preoccupied fighting Orcs, or just too stunned to react given what had just happened to his father. While in Moria, perhaps Thrain wandered years looking for Azog - perhaps he lost his way. Perhaps he even glimpsed Durin's Bane, and this sent him over the edge.
In any case, we know he was captured and brought to Dol Guldur. Did this happen in Moria? Possibly. In DoS Thorin says that he "received word his father was seen wandering near Dunland". This may be true, and if so we can presume that Thrain eventually departed Moria and was captured near Mirkwood, possibly on his way back to Erebor. But then again, the 'word' Thorin hears could just be rumour, with little substance.
We know from an Empire article that during the 2013 pick-ups they re-filmed parts of Azanulbizar with Antony Sher in the role of Thrain, expanding a flashback to explain him mysteriously going missing. So surely we can expect to see this in the EE.
- Now, the map and key. In AUJ Gandalf presents just the key to Thorin, who is clearly shocked. Indeed, he asks: "How came you by this?". To which Gandalf responds: "It was given to me by your father by Thrain, for safekeeping. It is yours now." Now many people wondered why Thorin did not question this, and felt it did not tally with the Azanulbizar flashback, where it is suggested the whereabouts of Thrain are unknown to the Dwarves. If Gandalf saw Thrain after the battle, then why isn't Thorin reacting to this amazing news more excitedly? The solution is found in DoS, again in Thorin's exchange with Gandalf:
My father came to see you before he went missing. What did you say to him?
So Thrain went to see Gandalf BEFORE the battle it seems, presumably to entrust the map and key to him incase he did not survive (surely a sensible policy, given that Thorin was involved in the battle also). Where they met, we have no idea. After all, where does one seek Gandalf out? Bree again seems a likely candidate. But in any case this is why Thorin is not especially moved by mention of Thrain. He can put two and two together and work out how Gandalf got the key before his father went missing. But this poses another question: when does Gandalf tell Thorin about the map?  I guess that's something they'll just have to leave unanswered.
We know Gandalf getting the map and key from Thrain was filmed. P. Boyens has confirmed it in two separate interviews, along with an intent to show it to us (at some point). First an interview with Vulture around the time AUJ was released:
"Good storytelling-spotting!" Boyens said, when we asked why we didn't see Thráin, father of Dwarf leader Thorin Oakenshield and one of the bearers of a Ring of Power, give Gandalf the map and key. (Gandalf had found Thráin near death at Dol Guldur.) "We did try it at the front of this movie, and then we moved it," she said. Does that mean we'll see that moment in a flashback or prologue to The Desolation of Smaug? "Yes, it's very important that we're going to be doing that. We will be meeting Thráin, and it may be in unfortunate circumstances. It may involve torture. The discovery of who or what is in Dol Guldur" — i.e., Sauron, known only at this point as the Necromancer — "is a fantastic part of the storytelling, so yes, of course we went there."
And again with Vulture upon DoS' release:
When we last spoke at the premiere of the first Hobbit movie, I asked you about something that you said would be in the second movie, and then it wasn't. So I have to ask: Why we didn't see Thráin, Thorin Oakenshield's father, give Gandalf the map and key? Ah, yes. That's going to be in the extended cut of the second film. In the end, it became about length and time and pace, and yeah, it's a very important part of the storytelling, but really, that's part of the brutality of filmmaking. As much as it informs Thorin's story, you're bringing in yet another character that you have to explain. We did actually shoot it. But Peter made the decision that this stuff is going to work best in the extended cut. If you're a Tolkien fan, you're going to want to see how this plays out.
The question now is how will this all play out in the EE? The obvious notion is that flashbacks will be inserted during the Bree conversation with Gandalf and Thorin, but there are 2 major problems with this:
1) Gandalf cannot tell Thorin he got the key from Thrain, and yet we, the audience, need to see it. This will be very difficult to do if he is narrating the events of the meeting to Thorin.
2) How will either party know what happened to Thrain after the battle so they can relate it to us? Also, if we see him being captured and brought to Dol Guldur early in the film, it ruins the reveal later on.
In light of this, I hope it plays out something like this:
When 'The Hobbit' appears, the film does not transition to its current beginning. Instead, we see a brief flashback of Gandalf's meeting with Thrain and how he got the map and key. It's an actual scene with dialogue, not a voiceover. He urges Thrain to march on Erebor, but Thrain says they will try to reclaim Moria instead. He gives the map and key to Gandalf incase the line of Durin do not survive the battle, perhaps instructing him to give them to Dis so they may be passed down through her line, or eventually Thorin should he survive, but only when the time was right. It could take place in Bree, which might be a logical connection.
(An alternative is that the film begins as normal, until it gets to Thorin's "My father came to see you before he went missing. What did you say to him?" At this point things change. Gandalf looks down, and when he looks back up Thrain is staring back at him in Thorin's place. The flashback meeting, also in the Prancing Pony, now plays out as above. It ends with Thrain urging Gandalf not to tell Thorin about the map and key until he deems it right. Gandalf is then snapped out of it by Thorin repeating "Gandalf?", and it continues from there, with Gandalf saying the "I urged him to march upon Erebor" line, conciously choosing not to disclose the whole conversation to Thorin. The problem with this is that it could appear rather awkward and clunky. I favour the meeting being a separate scene, though it chimes with that 'flashbacks within flashbacks" thing we heard a while back.
I would then show nothing more of Thrain until Gandalf meets him at Dol Guldur. Having fought him and brought him to some kind of sanity, Thrain relates what happened after Azanulbizar, tells his whole story of how he ended up at Dol Guldur, and we see the flashbacks. This makes the most sense, since it ensures the Thrain surprise is preserved. Furthermore, Thrain relating his sorrows and downfall will make it all the more impactful I feel.
I'll leave out my Thrain in the present day ideas, and let others speculate. Anything could happen there.
(This post was edited by Shagrat on Sep 29 2014, 6:21pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 29 2014, 7:12pm
Post #2 of 29
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That although the most obvious interpretation, I don't think we can be entirely certain that Thrain was last seen at the battle. It could possibly also hold true if he disappeared later.
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DanielLB
Immortal
Sep 29 2014, 7:16pm
Post #3 of 29
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Thrain's storyline has been pushed back to the final movie. 
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Shagrat
Gondor
Sep 29 2014, 7:18pm
Post #4 of 29
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I hope he does. I think that way offers more interesting possibilities for storytelling.
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Sep 30 2014, 6:07am
Post #5 of 29
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The one good thing is by November 4th we have the answers !! If not I shall need to go on an anger management course 
There are I think two phases to this. The Jeffrey Robbins non speaking part of 2011 and the Antony Sher speaking part 2013 pick ups.
From PB's remarks JR Thrain must have filmed the handing over of the map and key and this was originally intended to be told by voice over in the AUJ prologue.I see no reason why the action cannot be seen in the restored prologue of DOS. We the audience may see Gandalf handed the map and the key by JR Thrain but the dialogue to Thorin in person may be be more general and deliberately evasive Gandalf will know in the PP that he wants to reveal the key in bag end.
Once we arrive in DG its clear PJ took the extra film as time to flesh out the interaction between Gandalf and Thrain and I expect AS Thrain to explain to Gandalf how he came to be there (the flash back to Moria and being caught). He would be saved because Sauron would want him, knowing instinctively as Maiar and LOTR, that Thrain was in possession of a ring.
AS Thrain will in moments of lucidness explain his experiences since his capture and reveal that the necromancer is indeed Sauron.
AS Thrain we know tried to help G escape and as he is clearly an EE character now he will either die in this EE just prior to G's confrontation with Sauron, having warned G that his son must not enter the mountain, or be overlooked and die in BOFA EE but having warned G about Sauron and Thorin I can not see a story telling virtue
in him surviving and adding to the White Council narrative.
AS with the AUJ EE at the WC Gandalf can mention to the WC and Thorin in the BOFA EE that he has seen Thrain so all will understand more clearly what happened to the ring and in the latters case to the father.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Sep 30 2014, 8:13am
Post #6 of 29
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how couldnt Sauron just search Thrain and take the ring from him?
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At least Thrain was clever enough and he did hide the ring before go to reclaim Erebor?
Hobbit middle earth seems to suffer of a problem of not searching their prisoners, what happened in Thranduil´s halls with the key and the map, Bilbo have them?
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
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Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien
Sep 30 2014, 5:26pm
Post #7 of 29
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Your avatar picture looks amazing! Can you please show me a bigger version of it?
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
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Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien
Sep 30 2014, 5:34pm
Post #9 of 29
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''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Sep 30 2014, 6:44pm
Post #10 of 29
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I´m gonna change mine, you can use it if you want to
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The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Oct 1 2014, 2:31am
Post #11 of 29
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the company has already entered the mountain and the key has been used, so why backtrack ?? For us fans it would be great but i suspect PJ will cut-out any key related scenes for the final film.
The flames of war are upon you..
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Oct 1 2014, 2:34am
Post #12 of 29
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I have read nothing in-regards to PB stating there is a scene where Thrain hands off the map/key to Gandalf.
The flames of war are upon you..
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Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien
Oct 1 2014, 4:42am
Post #13 of 29
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...I just wanted to see it and it looks fantastic! Not until I saw the bigger version I noticed it is Benedict Cumberbatch as Annatar. Before I thought it was the Witch-King.
Thank you.
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Oct 1 2014, 5:19am
Post #14 of 29
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PB's answer to Vulture in 2012
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Its embedded in the first post on this thread where PB explains it was filmed for AUJ's prologue and can still be found on the inter web..
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Barrel_Rider
The Shire
Oct 1 2014, 7:20am
Post #15 of 29
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Want to see how he got the key, honestly.
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Shagrat
Gondor
Oct 1 2014, 9:06am
Post #16 of 29
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I quoted both responses from PB in my first post.
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DanielLB
Immortal
Oct 1 2014, 9:24am
Post #17 of 29
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But ... we've been saying that since ...
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Thrain's story didn't appear in AUJ, AUJ:EE or DOS. Each time we've thought we'd get flashbacks.
It was a joke
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 1 2014, 2:12pm
Post #18 of 29
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1) Gandalf cannot tell Thorin he got the key from Thrain, and yet we, the audience, need to see it. This will be very difficult to do if he is narrating the events of the meeting to Thorin.
2) How will either party know what happened to Thrain after the battle so they can relate it to us? Also, if we see him being captured and brought to Dol Guldur early in the film, it ruins the reveal later on.
Gandalf DOES tell Thorin that he got the map and key from Thrain. What he does not reveal is the circumstances under which he got them.
It seems that some of our questions will be answered in TH:DoS-EE.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 1 2014, 2:16pm
Post #19 of 29
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how couldnt Sauron just search Thrain and take the ring from him? At least Thrain was clever enough and he did hide the ring before go to reclaim Erebor?
Hobbit middle earth seems to suffer of a problem of not searching their prisoners, what happened in Thranduil´s halls with the key and the map, Bilbo have them?
Presumably, Sauron did find Thrain's Ring. At least, he reclaimed it in Tolkien's legendarium after Thrain was taken prisoner. The Dwarf-king had better luck concealing the map and key, probably because the Ring of Power was what Sauron was really after.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Oct 1 2014, 2:26pm
Post #20 of 29
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I was refering to the movie verse, but sorry, no...
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I f I was Sauron I would have taken Thrain naked and then had kept EVERYTHING specially if I find a key and a map, of course the ring also
in the movie verse it seems that is not a costum to search the prisoners exept for Frodo in Cirith Ungol, I guess Sauron learned something
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 1 2014, 2:31pm
Post #21 of 29
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Since movie-Gandalf was unaware that the Necromancer existed until Radagast brought word of him, movie-Thrain might have given him the map and key before he was taken to Dol Guldur. Either that or Thrain had the key hidden very well and the Orcs failed to do a cavity search.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Shagrat
Gondor
Oct 1 2014, 4:03pm
Post #22 of 29
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I meant he can't tell Thorin he got the map and key from Thrain during their meeting at Bree. Not that he doesn't tell him about how he got them full stop. Obviously he does tell him about the key in AUJ, but at the time it's clearly news to Thorin. The map is another matter...evidently Thorin knows about that before the meeting at Bag End.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 1 2014, 4:08pm
Post #23 of 29
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I overlooked the reference to Bree. I should have read your post more carefully.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Oct 1 2014, 5:29pm
Post #24 of 29
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Oddly this one of the few instances where
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A book conundrum is solved by films (presumably). Since in the films, almost certainly, Thrain had handed over the map and key prior to being captured, Sauron's searching skills are not impugned. Presumably, Thrain did have the ring and presumably Sauron was successful in finding this and taking it.
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Oct 1 2014, 5:43pm
Post #25 of 29
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In Bree Gandalf does not reveal the key or map to Thorin. We have no idea (in the films) how Gandalf got the key.
The flames of war are upon you..
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