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Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 29 2014, 7:49pm
Post #27 of 66
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The name Nimrodel is said to be of Silvan origin, adapted to Sindarin -- Appendix F
I still don't see why the Green Elves even need to be a factor here, since they are not West Elves nor Eldar according to the source Jackson is allowed to use.
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DanielLB
Immortal
Sep 29 2014, 7:51pm
Post #28 of 66
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Another (not so relevant) thought ...
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Perhaps not (especially where Jackson is concerned). The story of Nimrodel shows that the Eldar were willing to take a Silvan passenger if there was a good enough reason (she was to accompany Amroth).
In the EMPIRE podcast of 21st December 2012, Philippa Boyens said:
"It's an invention of ours, but it's hopefully an invention within the spirit of Professor Tolkien, and whose story thread, the germs of it, the seeds of it, lie within the Lord of the Rings in a piece of storytelling that we never got to tell..uhm, that involves an Elf." - Source.
We've never really found out what exactly was the inspiration for Tauriel. Was it Celebrian or Nimrodel?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 29 2014, 7:55pm
Post #29 of 66
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The name Nimrodel is said to be of Silvan origin, adapted to Sindarin -- Appendix F I still don't see why the Green Elves even need to be a factor here, since they are not West Elves nor Eldar according to the source Jackson is allowed to use.
It need not be a factor since the Green Elves are not mentioned in TH nor LotR. However, the later works need not be disrespected even if they cannot be directly referenced.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 29 2014, 7:59pm
Post #30 of 66
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We've never really found out what exactly was the inspiration for Tauriel. Was it Celebrian or Nimrodel?
Tauriel's story doesn't really seem to echo the tale of Celembrian and Elrond much (unless one reverses the gender roles?). It might indeed have more in common with Amroth and Nimrodel.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 29 2014, 8:03pm
Post #31 of 66
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Well, the later definition of Eldar conflicts with what the author himself published however... so if forced to choose why not The Lord of the Rings?
And here the filmmakers aren't even allowed to reference the conflicting definition of Eldar, which hardly matters in my opinion given Legolas' general comment that the Silvan Elves of Lorien set sail from the south...
... if Tauriel is a Silvan/Wood Elf... and her very name contains the word for 'wood' after all... I see no reason why she should not be allowed to sail, purely from a book stance anyway.
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DanielLB
Immortal
Sep 29 2014, 8:50pm
Post #32 of 66
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Kili will die trying to defend Tauriel. Grief stricken, she will leave Thranduil's Realm in search for the Fire Moon, or Starlight, or even Dis (as in the other thread). She becomes a lone Elf, whose story becomes lost and unknown.
It can't fit any better with Nimrodel. I'd be happy with this as Tauriel's story.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 29 2014, 9:38pm
Post #33 of 66
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Well, the later definition of Eldar conflicts with what the author himself published however... so if forced to choose why not The Lord of the Rings?
And here the filmmakers aren't even allowed to reference the conflicting definition of Eldar, which hardly matters in my opinion given Legolas' general comment that the Silvan Elves of Lorien set sail from the south...
... if Tauriel is a Silvan/Wood Elf... and her very name contains the word for 'wood' after all... I see no reason why she should not be allowed to sail, purely from a book stance anyway.
The Teleri were West Elves in the sense that they took part in the Great Journey. The Sindar were part of the Teleri. So were the Nandor. They were all Eldar; there is no conflict. And, of course, the filmmakers have no need to make an overt reference to The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales or any other posthumous works. So there isn't really any problem here.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 29 2014, 9:47pm
Post #34 of 66
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No real passion has been established for Tauriel/Kili.
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Kili will die trying to defend Tauriel. Grief stricken, she will leave Thranduil's Realm in search for the Fire Moon, or Starlight, or even Dis (as in the other thread). She becomes a lone Elf, whose story becomes lost and unknown.
It can't fit any better with Nimrodel. I'd be happy with this as Tauriel's story.
So far, there hasn't really been a strong romantic relationship established between our Elf-maid and our Dwarf. Kili is smitten and Tauriel has confused feelings for both him and Legolas. If there is anything deeper, it will have to be established early in TH:BotFA.
Kili can die beside his brother defending Thorin. Amroth did die for Nimrodel, but that was because of their separation, not in an attempt to defend her. I do like the idea of Tauriel honoring Kili by bringing his runestone back to his mother. If she simply disappears from tha annals after that, that is acceptable too.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Glassary
Rivendell
Sep 30 2014, 1:05am
Post #35 of 66
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I don't worry about which branch
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To me I don't want to worry about which brach of elves Tauriel or others are. I always took it to be that at this time all elves were allowed and entitled to sail.
Only if they chose to stay then they wouldn't sail., not that they couldn't.
In LOTR as Elrond notes 'the time of the elves is ending', I.e. To me it means all elves not only certain sects.
(This post was edited by Glassary on Sep 30 2014, 1:10am)
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Cirashala
Valinor
Sep 30 2014, 3:55am
Post #36 of 66
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but Tauriel is Teleri, not Avari, according to the Silmarillion (whether or not Jackson can reference this, I don't know- but like using the Prancing Pony in Bree for the Thorin/Gandalf meeting, he may be able to "work around" the copyright issues).
It's found in the Sil- though I am paraphrasing as my book is inaccessible right now:
The elves at Cuvienen who heeded the call of the Valar were referred to as Eldar. Those who stayed at Cuvienen were Avari. The rest who didn't end up sailing were the Teleri.
However, when they got to the Misty Mountains, some elves broke off from the journey out of fear of the great peaks, which were taller than they were in the TA. These elves settled in the vales of the Anduin. The rest kept going.
End paraphrased quote.
So, the Anduin- ironic....Thranduil's realm used to extend....to the Anduin. Galadriel and Celeborn's realm, Lothlorien, also lies in the vales of the Anduin. And both groups they ruled, Thranduil and G/C respectively, were wood elves that dwelt....in the vales of the Anduin originally.
So, it seems to me that Tauriel and the other wood elves/Silvan elves are descended from these Teleri who broke off of the Great March out of fear of the Misty Mountains, and were later ruled by those who were Noldor and Sindar, respectively. They are also less wise and more dangerous because they had never seen the light of the Two Trees, nor interacted with those who had (beyond their new rulers).
If that is indeed the case, then yes Tauriel, along with the rest of the Silvan elves, would be eligible to sail west because they ARE Eldar, not Avari.
As to whether or not the elves of Cuvienen ever chose to migrate west (the actual Avari) I don't know, but it's never mentioned by Tolkien. In fact, I get the distinct impression that those elves were never seen again, and that eventually they were mutated by Morgoth (since they no longer had the protection of the Valar and were so close to Thangorodrim) and became the first orcs, and each orc thereafter descended from them (I know Tolkien never finalized this idea, but this seems to be the best explanation for orcs).
Morgoth did not have the power to create, only to destroy. So if he could not create orcs, then he had to start from something else. And this seems like the most reasonable explanation, I think.
So if that were true, and the Avari became the first orcs, then I seriously doubt that, without the aid of the Valar, they could have possibly traveled from Cuvienen to Mirkwood (or Lorien), as it's so far away it's not even on the map, without being discovered by Morgoth or his minions and captured/killed/mutated/whatever.
Anyways, my two cents on it (and this was a bit of a "blanket reply" to the whole Avari/Teleri debate, not just to you specifically ).
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Avandel
Half-elven
Sep 30 2014, 5:49am
Post #37 of 66
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The only major characters that die happen to be dwarves? Even if I were not a dwarf fan, sitting in a theater I would find that a bit much.
It's not that I particularly want Tauriel to die, especially if it's played that this is the reason Legolas leaves Mirkwood - a storyline I would find incredibly trite. But having all the main character elves survive - and two of them will for sure - to me will just look like PJ sure loves his elves (again). Which I personally find numbing and not "realistic"', especially in that Tauriel being described as impulsive would in theory be more likely to make a mistake on a battlefield.
Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu
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dormouse
Half-elven
Sep 30 2014, 8:01am
Post #38 of 66
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Don't know - it's a tricky one, isn't it
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Because to kill Tauriel - the only 'main character' elf who could be killed - would risk detracting from the important deaths Tolkien put in the book - the ones that matter to the story. They could hardly kill her off and not make something of it (much as some folk might like them to!  )
We have only three main character elves and two have to live. And in some senses I think Tauriel dead in the battle is almost more of a problem to the overall story than Tauriel living - though I can't really explain why I think that. But I reckon you can rest assured that elves will die in droves, and Peter Jackson will find a way of making their deaths count even if we don't 'know' them.
As for loving his elves - I'd say that it's his dwarves he loves, and his hobbits. I think he finds the elves a bit prissy - hence the food fight at Rivendell and the general misbehaviour. He's really enjoying the dwarves, and by keeping the prominent deaths to the three Tolkien intended he's actually giving the dwarves centre stage. Just another way of looking at it....
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 30 2014, 9:25am
Post #40 of 66
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I don't think this sort of thing is a concern in principle for me.
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I know you say "risk" as opposed to "will" but I think the general point is not, for me, one that causes any worry in advance of seeing the specifics.
It seems to me that "detraction" as a worry in principle would only be based upon the idea that we have a finite emotional spend per film/story and that if we wasted our pennies on one death we would have less for others. Either that or the idea that there is a magic number of deaths which is right for each story.
In practice I can't see that this is the case. For example I haven't seen anyone argue for Fili and Kili dying off screen and without emotion, as in the text, for fear of them detracting from Thorin. Similarly I can't think that creating an emotional death for Boromir in FOTR detracted or even influenced our feelings about Gandalf's "death" (or Isildur's or Elendil's for that matter). Or in ROTK I can't see that the emotion spent on Theoden was lessened by Denethor, Gollum, Madril etc.
I also think that the issue of faux deaths can't be ignored (in book or film). When Tolkien ends a chapter with Pippin's eyes darkening and the claim that he "saw no more", the emotional "spend" at that moment is of the same magnitude as any other death. So then is that cash recredited when we learn he is alive? - I'm just not sure it works that way.
I think for me this is all in the execution, rather than the equation that more deaths = less emotion per death. I don't think we have finite emotion and I think we can see this in the fact that some films affect us much, much more than others. The total emotional effect isn't fixed so it is just as likely that another death increases the total, rather than dilutes it.
As to the actual effect - we won't know until we see it but, myself, I don't see any reason to be more fearful of Tauriel's death on screen than seeing and feeling those of Fili and Kili.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 30 2014, 12:31pm
Post #41 of 66
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The Teleri were West Elves in the sense that they took part in the Great Journey. The Sindar were part of the Teleri. So were the Nandor. They were all Eldar; there is no conflict. And, of course, the filmmakers have no need to make an overt reference to The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales or any other posthumous works. So there isn't really any problem here.
Well of course there is no conflict if you raise but one definition of 'Eldar', as you are doing here, but not the other one... the one that arguably conflicts with it! And of course if the filmmakers define Eldar by using the Silmarillion index (never published by the author himself), and it's not 'overt' then they might be able to get away with it...
... the point is, all they need do is stick to the source they are allowed to use.
Do the filmakers have to 'define' Eldar even? I'm not sure they do, necessarily. Do they have evidence that the Silvan Elves (whether Eldar or not) can sail West based on The Lord of the Rings?
Yes.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 30 2014, 12:38pm
Post #42 of 66
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(...) If that is indeed the case, then yes Tauriel, along with the rest of the Silvan elves, would be eligible to sail west because they ARE Eldar, not Avari.
Yes, that's according to The Silmarillion index definitions.
However the definition of Eldar in The Lord of the Rings is essentially West Elves: those that reached Aman plus the Sindar only (as they at least reached Beleriand, the West of Middle-earth). But Tauriel would be eligible to sail even if she is 'not Eldar' as the Silvan Elves of Lorien do, again according to The Lord of the Rings...
... a book which seems to, for some reason, take a rather consistent back seat to something Tolkien himself never published when it comes to defining Eldar.
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Sep 30 2014, 12:45pm
Post #43 of 66
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about an Elf-maid I have come to like and care about a lot: Tauriel.
All the questions I had about her origins and what that meant in terms of book 'cannon' regarding what she can or cannot do in the end have been thoroughly, if not conclusively discussed... so now I feel free to have my own personal opinion about it as well...!!! Very liberating!... 
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 30 2014, 1:17pm
Post #44 of 66
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As to whether or not the elves of Cuvienen ever chose to migrate west (the actual Avari) I don't know, but it's never mentioned by Tolkien.
It is mentioned by JRRT though, especially in Quendi And Eldar. A closer look at the Avari would probably be best in the books forum however...
... as Tolkien is not always consistent on the matter, and it can get somewhat detailed... relatively speaking anyway, since it is ultimately about the Avari.
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Eruvandi
Tol Eressea
Sep 30 2014, 2:15pm
Post #45 of 66
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That's why Feren, the horn blowing elf is our elven red-shirt
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Do y'all remember Feren from the Desolation of Smaug?
He's one of the few lesser elf characters to actually get a line, much less a name and show up on screen more than once. From the looks of the pic below where he is clearly not looking forward and blending in with the other elves, he's probably going to get a few more lines in BotFA. When they give a character lines, a name and have them show up multiple times, IMO, that means they want us to recognize them when we see them and be a little sad when they die. Feren will be the Haldir of BotFA and he will die on camera during battle. Poor, poor Feren. Hopefully they'll at least let him toot his horn one last time... *sniff*
"Home is behind the world ahead
And there are many paths to tread
Through shadow to the edge of night
Until the stars are all alight.
Mist and shadow
Cloud and shade
All shall fade
All shall fade"
(This post was edited by Eruvandi on Sep 30 2014, 2:17pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 30 2014, 2:22pm
Post #46 of 66
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It seems however we define Eldar (all Elves or the Elves of the Great Journey) or Silvan Elves (Avari or Teleri), precedence can be found for allowing Tauriel to sail into the West if that is what Jackson plans for the character. As a filmmaker, though, he is not obligated to reveal his reasoning; and he may have a very different fate in mind for the Elf-maid.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 30 2014, 2:31pm
Post #47 of 66
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Well since all I had to do was cut and paste... here's some of the Q&E information on the Avari... and some stuff about external dating! The following can be used as a sleep aid, but not a flotation device. I once dared to post...
***
I was surprised a bit to find Avari in Beleriand too, although in Quendi And Eldar [Q&E] Tolkien did note that the Sindar had become aware of 'small and secret groups' of Avari that had crept into Beleriand from the South. So not huge numbers here, it would seem.
Tolkien added that any individual Avar who joined with or was admitted among the Sindar [noting that 'it rarely happened' too] became a 'Calben', but that these Avari in general remained secretive, 'hostile to the Eldar and untrustworthy; and they dwelt in hidden places in the deeper woods or caves'. Were these Tatyarin Avari? That's what text later in the essay seems to say, for the Lindarin Avari are also noted as seemingly more friendly to the Eldar, often merging later in Eriador and the Anduin Vale, as noted.
Avari at heart here in Q&E it is noted that the Noldor asserted that most of the Teleri were Avari at heart, and that only the Eglain really regretted being left in Beleriand -- while the Teleri asserted that most of the Noldor in Aman itself were in heart Avari, and returned to Middle-earth when they discovered their mistake.
Hmm
But perhaps Tolkien would later ask himself the same question however: did the Avari, 'the Refusers' really pass into Beleriand?
'Those who had never made the journey to the West Shores were called 'the Refusers' (Avari). It is doubtful if any of the Avari ever reached Beleriand or were actually known to the Numenoreans.'
JRRT, Of Dwarves And Men
This is a late text, certainly later than Quendi And Eldar [again, in which the Avari do make it to Beleriand]. And what about Eriador and the Anduin Vale, where these Elves appear to have later merged?
Eriador
Despite that Words, Phrases And Passages [WPP] is dated to around the same time as Quendi And Eldar, in WPP Tolkien notes [entry yrch]:
(...) Actually in the L.R. no Avarin language appears, and such Elves as appear are, if not actually High-Elves of Noldorin origin, of Eldarin origin, or small peoples that have come under Eldarin influence, and become assimilated.
(...) Avari would not, at this period, be found West of the Misty Mountains. In Eriador such Elves as remained, or were gathered under the protection of Elrond, were either Nandor, or else Sindar and Noldor, fugitives from the destruction of Beleriand...' (...) Many of them [Nandor] remained in Eriador, where they were probably the only Elvish inhabitants of that great region in the Second Age and early Third Age.'
JRRT, Words, Phrases And Passages
It appears there are no Avari in Eriador according to this. And I don't think [although I'm not wholly positive] that they are mentioned in Of Dwarves And Men [again itself a late text], at least, although we do hear of certain realms in Eriador where Elves could be found.
East of the Mountains of Mist
It had been noted in Quendi And Eldar that penni is found in the Wood Elven speech of the Anduin Vale, to my mind suggesting that some Avari had merged among the Silvan Elves, as agrees with the general description already noted, but in another late text, published in an Appendix to the history of Galadriel and Celeborn, titled The Silvan Elves And Their Speech [Unfinished Tales], there is the description that the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien were descendants of the Telerin Nandor, and they hid themselves in the woodlands...
'... and became a small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from Avari: but they still remembered that they were in origin Eldar,...'
To me this seems to distinguish them from Avari anyway. Maybe some Avari merged with them later? Although I realize lack of evidence is hardly evidence, if I recall correctly no later merging is noted here, in any case. I think the possibility remains [as compelling as that may or may not be] open that Tolkien simply means these were all Telerin Elves in origin, later joined by Sindar from the West.
Or not
I mean if my suggestion here is really true, that would basically mean that Q&E had Avari in Beleriand, Eriador, and merging with some Silvan Elves east of the Misty Mountains -- but then Tolkien decides that no, they all stayed to the East of these lands.
Hmm. In any case, the Silvan Elves of Lorien are implied to have sailed Over Sea -- at least some of them, although the description, being brief and general, appears to imply that 'all' could. Granted, brief and general might explain itself: that is, the more detailed scenario could include Avarin Elves who would not sail West in any event. And Tolkien might not be interested in digressing about who wanted to sail West and who refused...
... but again, generally speaking sailing Over Sea doesn't seem all that 'refusical' to me. Or some other word.
Anyway I note Amroth's words to Nimrodel [another late text in Unfinished Tales] about sailing Over Sea.
***
I ended that quite lazily however... by noting something Amroth said... without actually quoting Amroth!
And I'm still too lazy to get out Unfinished Tales today... it seems. LOL
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Sep 30 2014, 3:34pm
Post #48 of 66
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There Amroth and Nimrodel held a long debate; and at last they plighted their troth, "To this I will be true," she said, "and we shall be wedded when you bring me to a land of peace." Amroth vowed that for her sake he would leave his people, even in their time of need, and with her seek for such a land. "But there is none now in Middle-earth," he said, "and will not be for the Elven-folk ever again. We must seek for a passage over the Great Sea to the ancient West." Then he told her of the haven in the south, where many of his own people had come long ago. "They are now diminished, for most have set sail into he West; but the remnant of them still build ships and offer passage to any of their kin that come to them, weary of Middle-earth. It is said that the grace that the Valar gave to us to pass over the Sea is granted also now to any of those who made the Great Journey, even if they did not come in ages past to the shores and have not yet beheld the Blessed Land."
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Sep 30 2014, 4:02pm
Post #49 of 66
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Sounds plausible to me. Though I must admit I didn't know he had a name. Thanks, Eruvandi!
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 30 2014, 4:29pm
Post #50 of 66
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'It is said that the grace that the Valar gave to us to pass over the Sea is granted also now to any of those who made the Great Journey, even if they did not come in ages past to the shores and have not yet beheld the Blessed Land.'
... for this part in partikulur too
To me this fits in well with the description of Eldar in The Lord of the Rings... although I'm not sure Tolkien really meant in that way here... but to 'the shores' in ages past, to my mind, can easily describe the Sindar -- and beheld the Blessed Land, those Elves that did pass Over Sea.
Thus Amroth can essentially be saying: the grace to 'us' (he is Sindarin, thus Eldarin) is also now granted to you 'not Eldarin' folk, you East-elves who began the Great March but never made it 'West enough' to be considered Eldar.
The possible problem with Tolkien sticking to The Lord of the Rings here may be with respect to distinctions of language: in other words, can the Silvan Elves speak a 'non-Eldarin' language if not an Avarin tongue?
I think yes, but I need to bounce this off an actual, trained linguist, a Tolkienien linguist preferred I guess. I'm not sure how different the Silvan Speech 'needs' to be in order that it be given a branch distinct from Eldarin -- or even if semantics can explain things (hey you're not Eldarin, so then neither is your language)... but in any case the speech of these Elves is explicitly noted as not-Eldarin in Appendix F.
Tolkien could have been thinking Avari/n here behind the scenes in the early 1950s (a draft even suggests this), but what I'm wondering is if he can make the published account work if these Silvan Elves are not actually Avarin in origin.
Hmm.
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But from a movie standpoint
[
