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The One Ring Forums: Off Topic: The Pollantir:
have you ever changed your mind on some deeply held belief, and if so, why?
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Poll: have you ever changed your mind on some deeply held belief, and if so, why?
Yes, because of something I heard/read
Yes, because I reasoned my way to a new way of thinking
Yes, because of an experience that contradicted what I'd been told to think
Yes, but mostly just to be rebellious
Nope!
well, kinda . . .
Not sure
View Results (26 votes)
 

Annael
Immortal


Sep 29 2014, 3:17pm

Post #1 of 76 (1473 views)
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have you ever changed your mind on some deeply held belief, and if so, why? Can't Post

I usually shake my head at people who debate issues that are strongly tied to belief systems, because I don't think arguing changes anyone's mind. But maybe that's because personally, I change a belief only when I have an experience that contradicts what I used to believe.

For instance, I was raised by an atheistic scientist, and for 20 years, I just shrugged when people talked about God; to me it wasn't any different from believing in Santa Claus or the Easter bunny; only a childish mind would do so. Then I had an experience I can't describe. Still don't believe in the God of most religions, but I now have a very different idea about souls & the afterlife.

But I'm curious: have you been argued out of a former belief, or argued yourself out of it into a new one? Any thoughts on the processes by which people change their minds?


Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 29 2014, 4:23pm

Post #2 of 76 (1173 views)
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Yep [In reply to] Can't Post

Global cooling: This is the cause in the 1960s-70s that got me into a 40 year environmental law enforcement career. Ice ages occurred every 10,000 years, and there it was 11,000 since the last one. The entire North American continent could be under a mile thick glacier by the middle of next week!! Something Had To Be Done. So my generation got the American Supersonic Transport banned and controls on atmospheric particulates and sulfate aerosols in place, only to be told “Er, wait. The problem is the exact opposite: global warming”.

Modern art: Used to think it was total crap. A little informal study and I’m floored by the genius that had been right in front of me.

Tolkien fans: Used to I was sure anyone who read Tolkien was a good friend I hadn’t met yet. Thanks to the internet I’ve found the jerk percentage in Tolkiendom is pretty much just about the same as the general population.


Magpie
Immortal


Sep 29 2014, 4:50pm

Post #3 of 76 (1166 views)
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haha... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think I had the same experience as your #3.


Magpie
Immortal


Sep 29 2014, 5:02pm

Post #4 of 76 (1148 views)
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I'd have to say 'no' on 'deeply held belief' [In reply to] Can't Post

And in pondering, I think it's because of my nature. One, I'm not a joiner. I don't find that I can jump on board many commonly held beliefs that lots of people are in on.

So I work out things for myself. I think long and hard about them and when I'm in a place I feel comfortable, I have no inclination to second guess them because someone else thinks I'm wrong.

I don't mind discussing such beliefs with like-minded or other-minded people... but not with the goal of convincing anyone that they're belief is wrong.

However, on ideas in general... I think I can be convinced of something I wasn't on board with initially. I bet it takes a certain approach and personality to do that. I don't respond to bullying, coercing, begging, patronizing, shaming or other similar tactics. I don't know if it's the first child thing or some quirk of my personality or factor of my life experience but I will not be bullied, coerced, or pushed into doing anything. Even seemingly noble things.

But most people who make me see things differently or more broadly weren't really invested in changing me. They were merely sharing their own experience. In such cases, I might rethink my own position... or broaden my own opinion... or maybe just appreciate a different take on the matter even if my own hasn't changed.

But I think my process for forming 'deeply held beliefs' aren't conducive to being changed by other people and, at least so far, not by any life experience. But then... I think my own deeply held beliefs are organic and they change and grow with my life experiences. I don't see that as 'changing' (as in 'switching') though.

I suppose I should vote. But "Nope" doesn't quite seem to express how I feel on the matter. It sounds closed minded and I don't think that's how I come at it.

So I won't follow the convention set before me by someone else in which the expectation is that I vote.

lol


(This post was edited by Magpie on Sep 29 2014, 5:04pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 29 2014, 5:38pm

Post #5 of 76 (1151 views)
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Yes... [In reply to] Can't Post

I was raised Roman Catholic and I remained with the Church through most of my young adult years. What changed is I saw the Church's inability to adapt in the face of modern medicine and science; also, I became convinced that many parts of Catholic doctrine had more to do with the preconceptions of men than the Word of God.

These days, while I hold some spiritual beliefs, I am essentially an atheist. I put more faith into the community of humankind than in organized religion.


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 29 2014, 5:48pm

Post #6 of 76 (1149 views)
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Yes, twice, [In reply to] Can't Post

into and out of religion - the first because of the environment I was in and the second through getting older and cynical.

Your posts remind me of two of Scott Adams's quotes, along the lines of: "If you think having a well-reasoned argument will change a person's mind, you may be new to this world", and "I have never seen someone changed their position based on a well-sourced, well-reasoned argument, but I have seen people change their behaviour to avoid being mocked".


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Sep 29 2014, 7:09pm

Post #7 of 76 (1153 views)
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Yes, Santa Claus and agnosticism... [In reply to] Can't Post

To comment further invites Administrative Censorship.

I wish I could, I wish I could, I wish I could !! Blush


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 29 2014, 7:14pm

Post #8 of 76 (1140 views)
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Well, if it is any consolation ... [In reply to] Can't Post

If you lived in the interior of Antarctica, pockets of the Pacific Ocean or in the stratosphere, you might be experiencing global cooling. Wink

(That's the wonder of climate change.)


Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 29 2014, 7:32pm

Post #9 of 76 (1137 views)
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On the other hand... [In reply to] Can't Post

...even if I lived on Mars, Jupiter, Pluto, or Neptune's moon Triton I'd stiil be experiencing global warming!

Mankind can't even go *near* a planet without mucking it up!!!


BlackFox
Half-elven


Sep 29 2014, 8:00pm

Post #10 of 76 (1120 views)
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Humans... [In reply to] Can't Post




Elizabeth
Half-elven


Sep 29 2014, 8:43pm

Post #11 of 76 (1120 views)
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Ayn Rand and "Objectivism" [In reply to] Can't Post

I quite fell in love with this when I was about 20. Read all the books, and was quite passionate about it. As years passed, I came to realize the underlying premises simply didn't agree with what I observed about people, societies, and governments. Rand's experience growing up in the Soviet Union led her to make some assumptions about human nature that are simply not as universal (or at least as applicable in Western society) as she thought.


Donry
Tol Eressea


Sep 29 2014, 9:38pm

Post #12 of 76 (1123 views)
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Took a few minutes... [In reply to] Can't Post

For the most part, I don't think there is any major change in my beliefs on topics like religion or politics. There has been a gradual shift for me though on what would be a much less important issue to every day society. I am pretty close to being a complete 180 degrees on the matter at this point...almost there...not quite...but might as well be. I am Canadian. I am a hockey-loving Canadian. Despite the stereotype, not all Canadians are hockey-loving Canadians, but a lot of us are. Over the last decade or so, there has been a fairly major shift in the hockey world - not just up here, but all over it seems. I grew up in the game. My father played, my grandfather played, my uncles played, brothers played....I played. I was one of those kids that played a lot of hockey. For a few years I was on a team that was on the ice any where from 4-5 times to 9-10 times a week. That is a lot of hockey, and there are kids who are on the ice more than that. I was not a goal scorer, I was not a set-up man, I was not the offensive defenceman and I wasn't the goalie. A big part of my role on and off the ice was intimidation. I was always one of the bigger stronger kids, so I was handed that role. Now, I wasn't the team goon, we had guys on most teams who filled that role. My job was to hit everything that moved in an opposing jersey. If I had to get rough with another player, than so be it. That was my role and I was pretty good at it. Growing up in Canada these roles on a hockey team were a given...providing the coaching staff wanted the roles for his team (I say 'his' team, because I never played for a woman coach, nor do I remember ever playing against one back in those days). Hockey very much is the institution up here the stereotype suggests. So for many, many years I saw what these roles provided every team I played on and even watched. I rarely second guessed the games history in that respect. There have always been opponents to the violence in hockey, I've never had an issue with their arguments. I just never thought they would 'win' the argument so-to-speak. Over the last decade I have have watched way more hockey than the average person - I work in sports television - we air a ton of hockey. I have a 15-year old stepson who has played hockey since he could skate. I have continued to play in Men's leagues off and on since I gave up playing 'real' hockey. I have stayed pretty close to the heartbeat of the game, if you will. The results of the violence have changed the game. It has not started at the pro level, but at the amateur level. The pro level is slowly catching up. The 'house league' in our area banned body contact permanently. Only the traveling or representative teams can use body contact. While fighting has always meant ejection from the game and possible suspension at the lower levels, the penalties are now more severe than ever. In fact a lot of teams find the penalties so severe and hurtful to the overall team's performance that they won't select a player who is nothing more than a goon player. The NHL is heading in that direction. 10 years ago, I would have said no to the elimination of fighting in the game. I have come around on this issue. I see less and less need for fighting in the game. In the NHL now there are players who are 6'8' tall and 240 pounds throwing hay maker punches at one another. Players are getting seriously hurt. In the '70's the players were 6'0' tall and weighed 180 pounds soaking wet. Nowadays some of these guys are bigger than heavyweight boxers, but are throwing bare knuckled fists at each others heads. And then are falling on rock-hard ice, some unconsciously, without anyway to protect their heads/faces from slamming into the ice. It doesn't need to happen anymore. The game has changed so much, it is faster, the players are bigger and stronger. The NHL knows the writing is on the wall with fighting, they just are slow to get on board.
My stepson suffered three concussions within about a years time, and a fourth one may very well have happened that didn't get diagnosed. None of them were major concussions, none of them were from fighting in hockey. One was from a hockey puck that hit him in the back of his helmet, complete fluke. I have had several concussions, none of them from fighting. The North American ice has not changed sizes in decades, but the players have. Players today are bigger, much bigger than they were 40 years ago. They are faster - a lot faster than the old days and they are in way, way better shape. Which means they are stronger, the vast majority of today's elite players are lifting weights all year. That didn't happen in the '70's, hell even the '80's. With the added size, strength and speed of today's players - in a confined space - the collisions are bone-jarring. That hard black piece of vulcanized rubber they are chasing is moving at speeds never seen before. There are enough elbows, shoulders, knees and pucks flying around the rinks injuring players that a fist doesn't need to be there anymore. Fighting has run it's course. I never thought I would be ok with it being taken out of the game. But it is done.

Sorry for the ramble....


(This post was edited by Donry on Sep 29 2014, 9:39pm)


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Sep 29 2014, 10:56pm

Post #13 of 76 (1096 views)
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Objectivism [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I agree. Many of her objectivist premises are unreal for today’s society. It’s seems quite difficult to find anyone today who will hold to their principles even to their own detriment – e.g. Howard Roark. But I still find Atlas Shrugged to be my 2nd favorite novel (3 guesses what’s first), and I can just get lost in it about once a year or so. I read it a few months back and felt like I was reading about much of what was happening today.

Who is John Galt? Cool


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Sep 30 2014, 12:10am

Post #14 of 76 (1091 views)
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Holding to your principles, to your own detriment... [In reply to] Can't Post

...is relatively rare, but not unheard of. Ironically, most had altruistic motive, which she would have deplored. For example, Albert Schweizer, a brilliant organist and world-famous Bach scholar who went to Africa as a medical missionary. JFK's book "Profiles in Courage" offered examples of politicians who risked and sometimes lost their careers for principle.

Rand was an apostle of self interest, but she defined it too narrowly. Sometimes the "greater good" is good for you, too. For example, you benefit by paying taxes for public schools even though you don't yourself have kids, because educated kids grow up to be more productive (and less troublesome) members of society.


Arannir
Valinor


Sep 30 2014, 10:41am

Post #15 of 76 (1084 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

I can say that I am a very loyal and convicted person who doesn't easily lose political, social or religious beliefs.

However, there are some areas where critical thinking, analyzing and experiences led to a chain of thoughts that changed my overall approach to a certain topic:


1) As someone who started to grow political believes at the age of 13-16 in a time frame that was mainly shaped by 9/11 and its aftermath I changed from feeling "unconditonal solidarity" towards the USA to a deep mistrust (especially in the years between 2003 and 2005). First because of the - in my eyes - horrible Bush administration and its Iraq policy, second because I spent 4 weeks with an American family in Arkansas... I was shocked at how they and their entire community were based and shaped by extreme Christian fundamentalism. However, I moved to the US (New York) and lived there in 2009 and 2010... that resulted in a much deeper exchange with the country and its people and I grew a much deeper respect for the country's heritage and its "good sides" again. I would consider myself deeply americanophile with keeping a certain scepticism when I look to the far-right and the ultra-conservatives.

2) The church... both protestant and catholic... I see the good they do and the good they can bring out in their followers. But too often they seem to be connected to what is bad and too slow in reacting to these bad things (not even speaking about their issues in adapting to social and scientific progress - often hiding fear and inability behind the claim of supporting "lasting values"). My views on the church (and organized religion) therefore change on a regular basis, while I remain a doubtful Christian.

3) I agree with Darkstone's #3 Wink

4) Homosexuality... I thought for a long time it was my duty trying to hide my own sexuality. I didn't want to say goodbye to my hopes of founding a "hetero-normative" family... a life that would be considered "normal" by most. The most important change of belief for me personally was that it was okay to accept and embrace myself again... that self-hating was only leading to destruction, pain and very dark places. These days I work with young people and help them on the often painful path of "coming-out", hoping that some of them will not have to go through the dark times I experienced myself (despite massive and unconditional support from my family).

5) Fantasy... well, still not a fan of the genre... but at least in 1999 I realized that there was a certain Oxford Professor who created something that would even capture someone who might have thought to dislike "fantasy" novels and stories until reaching the wonders of Midlle-earth.


(This post was edited by Arannir on Sep 30 2014, 10:44am)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Sep 30 2014, 4:32pm

Post #16 of 76 (1061 views)
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Changing one's mind [In reply to] Can't Post

We can count on you for a thought-provoking question, Annael! But wait, I can't answer this in 140 characters or less, so what's the point? We're just begging for "TL;DNR" 's . Smile

Born in the 1960s in a conservative family that was certain that all the dang hippies and liberals were destroying society. While I didn't agree with them on everything, that was my baseline up through my 20s and 30s.

Now I'm 50, and supposed to be getting more conservative, but ever the heretic, I'm getting more liberal. So when people want to outlaw gay marriage, for example, I think they're just being mean and invading others' space, and the married gays that I work with are not destroying society. Lots of examples of things that were supposed to be destructive and sending the world to heck turn out not to be, so that's made my deeply held beliefs evolve (I've always believed in evolution, at least). When I hear a family member complain about how taxes are destroying America, I tell them to go outside and build their own highway with their own asphalt. So we don't talk politics much anymore.

I still believe in God, but not the mean one I grew up with who was always ready to condemn someone for something (while also claiming to forgive them and love them unconditionally--too much cognitive dissonance there), but never go to church.

I think my most deeply held belief is that people should treat each other well, so when I realize that other deep beliefs conflict with that, I work to change them. It does take awareness and time, but most of us grow up with contradictions in our head. Nothing for me has ever changed overnight, and I don't think a single argument has ever changed my mind, but life experiences definitely have.


cats16
Half-elven


Sep 30 2014, 11:54pm

Post #17 of 76 (1025 views)
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Well said. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think my most deeply held belief is that people should treat each other well, so when I realize that other deep beliefs conflict with that, I work to change them. It does take awareness and time, but most of us grow up with contradictions in our head. Nothing for me has ever changed overnight, and I don't think a single argument has ever changed my mind, but life experiences definitely have.



I typed something earlier, but couldn't get it to sound right in my head.


Annael
Immortal


Oct 1 2014, 12:21am

Post #18 of 76 (1059 views)
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modern art! [In reply to] Can't Post

For me it was abstract art. Completely passed me by until a brilliant professor took us through the entire process for several artists & showed us just how & why Kandinsky ended up with circles, Mondrian ended up with straight lines, and Picasso went all cubist. Still not a fan of Picasso, but that's not because of his style, it's because I see misogyny in his works. But I love Kandinsky now, and folks like Mark Rothko.

I wouldn't say it changed my beliefs, just helped me understand something that previously made no sense to me.


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Oct 1 2014, 1:29pm

Post #19 of 76 (1002 views)
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You are correct [In reply to] Can't Post

You can't "argue" or "debate" away a deeply held belief. Not meaning to say anything negative about atheists in general, but Bill Maher keeps going on about the "marketplace of ideas," which is a total waste of time. A belief is not just an idea.

That's not to say that I haven't modified my viewpoint in some areas. For instance, I can accept evolution for the most part, because really (despite what Richard Dawkins might say) there's nothing in the theory that contradicts the existence of a God. I have also had to modify my understanding of the Christian bible, accepting that the authors made their best efforts to record events after the fact, but that some of the events may not be 100% accurate, or the meaning we've adopted may not have been the one intended. But that's normal communication issues, and it happens in history all the time. But I think that's a far cry from changing my mind, at least the way I think you mean.


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Oct 1 2014, 1:39pm

Post #20 of 76 (993 views)
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Concussions in football, too [In reply to] Can't Post

There's been reports about that in both college and pro-leagues. Part of it is improved understanding of brain injuries - our medical knowledge has increased greatly in that area. And yeah, part of it is the size of the players. I think it's a good thing, yes the old game or helmets will have to change to accommodate the new information. This is a good discussion!


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Oct 1 2014, 1:52pm

Post #21 of 76 (1006 views)
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I'm glad you can accept yourself [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
4) Homosexuality... I thought for a long time it was my duty trying to hide my own sexuality. I didn't want to say goodbye to my hopes of founding a "hetero-normative" family... a life that would be considered "normal" by most. The most important change of belief for me personally was that it was okay to accept and embrace myself again... that self-hating was only leading to destruction, pain and very dark places. These days I work with young people and help them on the often painful path of "coming-out", hoping that some of them will not have to go through the dark times I experienced myself (despite massive and unconditional support from my family).

No one should have to hide or be afraid of such a thing. As a Christian, I've come to believe that whatever judgments there may be, they are all God's judgments and not mine. If "all have sinned and fallen short", and yet we can all be saved, why not gays? Of course they can. I think the Catholic Church is struggling with this, but I think that eventually (with Pope Francis' help) the Church will become more accepting and welcoming for gays. And I did change an older belief in homosexuality, in that yes, people probably are "born that way." After all, I never asked myself if I wanted to be straight! I just am, that's all. I can't help it, Richard Armitage is a total HOTTIE!!!HeartEvil So why then would it be any different for anyone else?



Dame Ioreth
Tol Eressea


Oct 1 2014, 2:05pm

Post #22 of 76 (996 views)
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Yup, Me too [In reply to] Can't Post

I just couldn't write it as well.

I think the main issue I have with folks who seek to change my mind about something is the bullies. They come in all shapes and sizes, clothe themselves in righteousness so sure of themselves (and I'm not just talking about religion) and have no intention of listening to the viewpoint I'm starting at because they are so entrenched in getting me to their endpoint, the "only" endpoint. Measured, respectful discussion I will and have listened to and there are times when it has led me to a change of heart or mind down the road. Life teaches that way.

It all comes down to what CG said - do we treat each other well? If someone wants to discuss, I'll discuss because I think being open-minded is a good thing and I've learned a lot that way. When it comes to arguing, maybe not. Someone starts getting angry or yelling (in person or in CAPS) and I walk away. I don't need that in my life and at that point, the "discussion" part of the interaction is gone anyway.


Arannir
Valinor


Oct 1 2014, 2:09pm

Post #23 of 76 (1012 views)
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The issue with the Catholic Church... [In reply to] Can't Post

...is that they are so far behind, even Francis.

He goes a step forward in openly stating that he dislikes discrimination and violence against LGBTQ people in any form... and that it is okay as long as one doesn't "live a homosexual lifestyle". He does not want to judge homosexuals but clearly states that any homosexual act remains a sin in the eye of the church. Knowing full well what he does to homosexual Catholics by stating that (but then again... why would the LGBTQ community receive any klind of support women have fought for for such a long time now without reaching the full goal).

Where I do get an immense issue with any Church is when they try to influence the policy-making on this (and others) issue (as Francis did when he was still Archbishop in Argentina).

The irony in the whole debate around LGBTQ-rights is the fact that they are fought or argued against by conservatives while the rights fought for are at their core conservative rights and values: marriage, family, love.

This is also why I have troubles accepting all opinions on these issues... some things have nothing to do with "opinion" but with human rights and human dignity.

All of the fears that opponents have against gay marriage - for example - are mere theory. That it destroys the family, the soceity... that kids growing up with two mothers or fathers have trouble developing - all just theories and mostly already debunked by science. Theoretical. The examples of love and caring for one another are REAL though. This is something the churches (and conservatives) do not have many convincing answers to.

"If we are truely created equal than surely the love we commit to one another must be equal as well"... not said by me, but very wise words, imho.


(This post was edited by Arannir on Oct 1 2014, 2:16pm)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Oct 2 2014, 12:22am

Post #24 of 76 (984 views)
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Passing you heading the other way. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not quite sure a childhood belief, even if strongly held at the time, is quite the same as an adult one but I was brought up as to believe in the slightly wishy washy god of the C of E but didn't make it much into secondary school before deciding it was absolute bunkum.

I think it was pretty much reasoning, from a variety of things, but in particular observing, to my eye, the loops and hoops that people seemed happy to bend themselves into to fit "The Truth" with the truth.


wonderinglinguist
Lorien

Oct 2 2014, 7:30pm

Post #25 of 76 (949 views)
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Completely agree [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
If someone wants to discuss, I'll discuss because I think being open-minded is a good thing and I've learned a lot that way. When it comes to arguing, maybe not. Someone starts getting angry or yelling (in person or in CAPS) and I walk away. I don't need that in my life and at that point, the "discussion" part of the interaction is gone anyway.


You remind me of one of my favorite quotes: "Honest discourse died when culture decided that if your beliefs are different than mine it means you hate me". It's not a favorite because of the sentiment, but because it's so true. People often seem to have so much trouble just talking calmly and discussing things without getting into mean, heated arguments and taking everything as a personal affront Crazy

Generally, I've found TORn users to be very respectful and great for discussions Smile

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