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boldog
Rohan
Sep 27 2014, 11:01am
Post #1 of 37
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Why Doesnt anyone from the white council accompany Gandalf back to Dale/Erebor
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Going off what we have seen and know so far, none of the other 4 white council members are present in the north while Gandalf is there.
Now considering that Gandalf has been utterly defeated during the Dol Guldur confrontation, what reason is preventing other members to accompany him? Dol Guldur will be cleansed and the necromancer will be driven out, before Gandalf makes tracks back to the north. What reason will there be for the other 4 members to stay back and not accompany him to fight in the oncoming battle? Especially Radagast, who you'd think would accompany Gandalf back.
Thoughts? What do you think will be the reasons for Gandalfs solitary return to Dale?
I believe that Azog and Bolg are possibly the only two orcs who may be an exception to the typical evil nature of an orc. Azog had brought up his son, well enough that he actually acknowledges him as his own son. That is a first for any orc. And Bolg sets out to march upon Erebor in vengeance of his fathers death. How many orcs will Try and avenge another dead orc? Most will just forget about the dead one. This gives me hope that Orcs, have some traits of good in them, even if it is small aspects.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 27 2014, 12:36pm
Post #2 of 37
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You presume that the White Council knows that there is going to be a battle at Erebor. They might not even know yet about the demise of Smaug and the destruction of Lake-town. In book-canon, the company hadn't even reached Lake-town when the Necromancer was driven from Southern Mirkwood.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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dormouse
Half-elven
Sep 27 2014, 12:48pm
Post #3 of 37
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Gandalf goes to Erebor to find and check up on the dwarves...
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.. and Bilbo. As most of the White Council weren't in favour of the quest it's unlikely they would have much interest in its outcome. Their work was driving the Necromancer from Dol Guldur, which they will have done.
For all we know, Gandalf will leave the 'mopping up' to the others while he rides off to find the dwarves. So far as he knows, he isn't going to fight a battle.
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Sep 27 2014, 2:29pm
Post #4 of 37
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They reveal their power only at a pinch
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It is an overarching theme of Tolkien that the power of good remains cloaked and only comes forth at a pinch. it is also brilliant story telling!
Gandalf (the meddler) has drawn out Sauron, in all probability interfering with his designs. But the real purpose of this act of courage is to draw out the council to face Sauron.
Once they have confronted Sauron the council will withdraw and Galadriel and Elrond will withdraw into their Manwe like state overseeing matters with out direct intervention (their policy as ring bearers in the third age). Saruman, the leader of the council and greatest of the Istari, will once he is satisfied Gandalf is safe will leave him to pursue his support for the company, recognising that Gandalf was right about the Necromencer. The matter of Erebor is a political one which Gandalf can handle rather than confrontation with a before the world power.
Over the millennium Gandalf and Saruman have pursued the task laid down by the powers in a solitary and singular way. Radagasts involvement with Gandalf springs entirely from his desire to find Gandalf and warn him about the necromancer, whilst the story telling is uneven, because of the changes from 2 to 3 films, Radagasts return to DG can be foreseen in his original visit. Once returned we will see Radagasts fate played out in late december.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Sep 27 2014, 2:32pm)
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erdildeniz
Rivendell
Sep 27 2014, 5:21pm
Post #5 of 37
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The reason is I think, destroying of Dol Guldur
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After The White Council fight with Sauron, and after Sauron's drove out, I think there will be some discussing between the members.Probably,
Gandalf: "I saw an army marching out of fortress, ýt goes to North. I think it ahaeds to Erebor!"
Saruman/Galadriel: "Then follow that army and warn people of Lake Town.But this fortress should be destroyed, otherwise this forest will never be like old, again."
Gandalf (maybe with Radagast, because Sylvester McCoy was seen in set of Dale) rides to Erebor. Then Galadriel and Saruman start to laying waste to the fortress of Dol Guldur. It's not official, but in moviepilot.com there was a topic about destroying of Dol Guldur, here you go:
"One of the biggest set pieces of the final film will include Galadriel and Saruman laying waste to the fortress of Dol Guldur, which was revealed in the second film to be the domain of the disembodied Dark Lord Sauron."
(This post was edited by erdildeniz on Sep 27 2014, 5:28pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 27 2014, 8:21pm
Post #6 of 37
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After The White Council fight with Sauron, and after Sauron's drove out, I think there will be some discussing between the members.Probably,
Gandalf: "I saw an army marching out of fortress, ýt goes to North. I think it ahaeds to Erebor!"
Saruman/Galadriel: "Then follow that army and warn people of Lake Town.But this fortress should be destroyed, otherwise this forest will never be like old, again."
Gandalf (maybe with Radagast, because Sylvester McCoy was seen in set of Dale) rides to Erebor. Then Galadriel and Saruman start to laying waste to the fortress of Dol Guldur. It's not official, but in moviepilot.com there was a topic about destroying of Dol Guldur, here you go:
"One of the biggest set pieces of the final film will include Galadriel and Saruman laying waste to the fortress of Dol Guldur, which was revealed in the second film to be the domain of the disembodied Dark Lord Sauron."
This might be the most likely answer--or very close to it.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 27 2014, 8:51pm
Post #7 of 37
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Presumably for the same reason
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That they rarely bother to do anything about anything without a few hundred years' wait - they are a bit of a lazy bunch when you look at it.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Sep 28 2014, 4:59am
Post #9 of 37
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Because the dwarves aren't hedgehogs
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The point has been posted that re the book and the timing of events, there wouldn't have been an urgent reason to accompany Gandalf - fair enough (and leaving aside the issue of whether Gandalf should have left the dwarves in the first place).
But the movie made it clear that Gandalf knew that Azog was a "commander of legions", and that Erebor was a focus, and knew the Company was in "grave danger". AND Gandalf would see those legions on the move as he hung in his cage.
We already know Radagast was perfectly happy to throw the dwarves under the bus (no offer to go after them after taking a message to Galadriel either). But perhaps I can assume, inexplicably, that after rescue Gandalf says absolutely nothing about the dwarves or the big army.
Maybe he knew it wouldn't do any good, seeing as with all their resources seems to be poor Gandalf doing everything instead of the High Elves, e.g. perhaps to these guardians of Middle Earth the dwarves aren't worth worrying about, even though dwarves are an integral race of Middle Earth. Er.
This will be interesting, seeing if any explanation at all is given, or basically the audience shouldn't be asking questions like that. Like why didn't Galadriel or Elrond didn't go check out Dol Guldur seeing as Gandalf was already committed.
[evils]
Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 28 2014, 4:00pm
Post #10 of 37
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The White Council is too concerned with the Big Picture
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With Sauron evicted from Dol Guldur, the rest of the White Council doesn't seem to see the Lonely Mountain as a priority even though Elrond agreed with Gandalf's earlier point that Erebor is strategically important to the North. Apparently Saruman would prefer to believe that the Dark Lord will slink away for another four centuries before he becomes a threat again.
Of course, book-Saruman just wanted Sauron driven from Mirkwood to prevent his servants from searching the Gladden Fields for the Master Ring. He was convinced that only by finding the Ring and mastering it could he do his duty to Middle-earth. Saruman was compromised by this time, but not yet wholly corrupt.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 28 2014, 5:11pm
Post #11 of 37
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That's quite a generous interpretation for Saruman.
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Though the timelines don't quite match up in terms of sequence with the Appendices, the Sil has it that by the time of the WC meeting immediately following the discovery of Sauron in Dol Guldur, Saruman already wanted to use the Ring to rule in his own right - not for study and the greater good.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 28 2014, 5:25pm
Post #12 of 37
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Though the timelines don't quite match up in terms of sequence with the Appendices, the Sil has it that by the time of the WC meeting immediately following the discovery of Sauron in Dol Guldur, Saruman already wanted to use the Ring to rule in his own right - not for study and the greater good.
I do tend to doubt that Saruman was aware of his own corruption at that time (or was at least in deep, deep denial). The Valar only know how he justified to himself his then secret program of developing and breeding Half-orcs.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Avandel
Half-elven
Sep 28 2014, 5:36pm
Post #13 of 37
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As always *grins* many thanks and April '14 RA interview
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http://www.digitalspy.com/movies/interviews/a563368/richard-armitage-twitter-qa-the-hobbit-3-is-a-tragic-story.html#~oRb18Umblpdsi7
Just reposting this link as everyone waits, because RA's comment LOL tho he can't talk about it re a scene in BOFA being the "most challenging to film" - can't imagine what that will be, tho perhaps it has something to do with Thorin's "suicidal charge"..... Plus *SQUEEE* his comments on the EE ....(and it's funny to picture Thorin using the Ring to make himself grown taller )
ANYWAY. Thank you for the point about Saruman because I KEEP FORGETTING that Saruman - with his pride and deep knowledge - had had other agenda for a while. That fact never seems to stay with me until LOTR, possibly because Saruman is supposed to be one of the good guys. As an aside, I am pretty pleased myself at the prospect of Saruman (especially for the wonderful Christopher Lee's sake), Elrond, and Galadriel unleashing power in an action sense.
I do hope the movies at least offer some reasonable explanation as to why Elrond and Galadriel don't offer further assistance, considering the size of the army that is on the move if nothing else. Because surely if they are a kind of "guardians of Middle Earth" they would know that dwarves aside, an army of orcs and wargs that large on the move are not going to be kindly to anything they come across.
Or even, even - this is far-fetched - but will they just assume, that the orcs will run right into Thranduil and that the wood elves would slaughter any orcs/wargs in their territory? I need to look at a map!
Or that Smaug has likely torched the dwarves IF they ever got to Erebor and would do the same to any orc trying to take his gold? That's another thing - Smaug knows the "Darkness is coming" and there's a hint of a connection, possibly, with Sauron. So if the orcs/wargs arrived at Erebor unchallenged - what was supposed to happen? Azog & co. just move in with Smaug? 
I can't think Smaug wouldn't just torch Azog and his minions, as arrogant and psychotic as he is. Or perhaps the Necromancer would have made Smaug some sort of nice offer of sorts.
Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 28 2014, 5:40pm
Post #14 of 37
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Is relatively blunt:
"Thus the Wise were troubled, but none as yet perceived that Curunír had turned to dark thoughts and was already a traitor in heart: for he desired that he and no other should find the Great Ring, so that he might wield it himself and order all the world to his will. Too long he had studied the ways of Sauron in hope to defeat him, and now he envied him as a rival rather than hated his works."
It sounds more obviously like a conscious desire. What points you towards the idea that he believed he was still doing good?
(This post was edited by Spriggan on Sep 28 2014, 5:43pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 28 2014, 6:07pm
Post #15 of 37
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To Avandel: I won't have a copy of TH:DoS until the extended edition comes out. Does Gandalf know for certain that Sauron's Orcs are headed to the Lonely Mountain? I keep thinking that Azog could be taking them to the Misty Mountains first to increase their numbers and then along the Grey Mountains (picking up even more goblins) to Erebor.
To Spriggan: Firstly, I tend to put more weight on the published text of The Lord of the Rings than on the uncompleted (in Tolkien's lifetime) Silmarillion or other versions of "The Quest of Erebor" -- all published after Professor Tolkien's death. Even so, the account in The Silmarillion can be interpreted in more than one way, at least in the matter of Saruman's self-awareness at the time of Thorin's quest. Certainly, he did not fall fully under Sauron's sway until he peered into the Orthanc-stone sometime around TA 3000.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 28 2014, 6:22pm
Post #16 of 37
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Oh I tend to agree on precedence
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But I was wondering which bit of LOTR you were thinking of, which suggested otherwise?
Any quote is open to interpretation but I think it would be a long road to argue the Sil one suggested Saruman still thought he was doing good.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 28 2014, 6:44pm
Post #17 of 37
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I'm not even sure that Tolkien brought up the subject in LotR (I am specifically thinking of the Council of Elrond and in Appendix A where the Quest of Erebor is discussed). There is no suggestion, though, that Saruman had gone over to the Dark Side until much later. Perhaps Sauron openly declaring himself in TA 2951 is what tipped the scales. It was only two years later in 2953 that Saruman took Isengard for his own and began to fortify it. It was at that time that he began harassing Rohan with Orcs and Dunlendings and that he began using agents to spy on Gandalf and the Shire. That was also probably soon after that when he started breeding his Half-orcs, some of whom could pass for Men.
Sauron would not have needed to nudge Saruman much when the Wizard finally used the palantir at Orthanc.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 28 2014, 6:48pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 28 2014, 6:56pm
Post #18 of 37
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Hmmm - so to me, precedence wouldn't come into then.
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If LOTR is silent on the subject of when Saruman had tipped into wanting the Ring to rule in his own right, but the Sil (and HOME) tell us this was already the case before the 2851 meeting of the WC, why wouldn't we go with that? His actions don't contradict this in any way that I can see, so I can't see much evidence to dissuade us from taking this as the clearest statement of Saruman's mindset.
Also, I'm not sure where the idea that he wanted the Ring, at this time, to study for the greater good comes from
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Avandel
Half-elven
Sep 28 2014, 7:13pm
Post #19 of 37
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Radagast: But it cannot be the Necromancer. A human sorcerer could not summon such evil.
Gandalf: Who said it was human? The nine only answer to one master. We've been blind, Radagast. And in our blindness, the enemy has returned. He is summoning his servants. Azog the Defiler is no ordinary hunter. He is a commander, a commander of legions. The enemy is preparing for war. It will begin in the east. His mind is set upon that mountain.
+ combined with the huge number of wargs and orcs that Gandalf sees at DG, and he sees this army moving out. To me logically since it looks like their numbers are already built up into an army, with Azog at its head, Gandalf knows exactly where Azog is headed "they are in grave danger".
Tho for me there is a question as to why the Necromancer is good with Azog, in theory, taking over Erebor in particular, tho if you are going to "spread your darkness to every corner of the land" I suppose Erebor is as good a location to start as any, strategically and with an enormous hoard to be had - a nice place for orcs to settle into.
So for me, yes, I think Gandalf knows Azog, with his particular hatred of the line of Durin, is heading straight for the mountain, with an entire army, which again begs the question as to why the elves don't think it is a good thing to at least send Gandalf with some company. But perhaps this will be clarified in BOFA.
BTW kudos for having that kind of self-discipline re the disks - ah, well, if nothing else I have been very supportive of WB and the Hobbit films, and in the end end up with multiple copies *grins*. So if a disk ever gets damaged, my "movie viewing" wont' get spoiled. On top of that, I am so eager to see the EE I won't be surprised if I cave because I can't stand not to see it ASAP and then get the collector edition anyway. LOL "Men. Men are weak..."
Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 28 2014, 7:27pm
Post #20 of 37
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To be honest, it would be rather out of character
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The WC didn't do anything about the Witch King's army destroying the North for hundreds of years, did nothing at all about Smaug, Moria, the Balrog, Wainriders, Haradrim, the taking of Minas Ithil, the killing of the last King of Gondor....you name it.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 28 2014, 7:39pm
Post #21 of 37
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If LOTR is silent on the subject of when Saruman had tipped into wanting the Ring to rule in his own right, but the Sil (and HOME) tell us this was already the case before the 2851 meeting of the WC, why wouldn't we go with that? His actions don't contradict this in any way that I can see, so I can't see much evidence to dissuade us from taking this as the clearest statement of Saruman's mindset.
Also, I'm not sure where the idea that he wanted the Ring, at this time, to study for the greater good comes from
If we are looking primarily at Tolkien's post-mortem books then we must examine "The Hunt for the Ring" in Unfinished Tales, specifically part iii, Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire. By 2851 Saruman already secretly desired the One Ring for himself. He had long been jealous of Gandalf, going back as far as Galadriel's sponsorship of Mithrandir for the head of the White Council. This story suggests that by the WC of 2951 Gandalf was already a bit suspicious of his superior.
My thought is that Saruman would have descended only gradually into evil and would have long denied even to himsefl any selfish motive for desiring the Master Ring. His first sins were Pride and Envy; all else sprouted from those roots and in his refusal to see worth in small and humble folk.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 28 2014, 7:50pm
Post #22 of 37
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Well I don't disagree with that..
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But I think your timing looks like it is off. We would have to go pretty heavily against the Sil quote and the HOME one to suggest that Saruman wasn't after the Ring explicitly wanting to use it to rule.
Certainly to say, which was piqued my interest further up this thread, that even by the time of TH Saruman only wanted the Ring for the greater good doesn't seem to be based on anything particular, and rather goes against any of the textual descriptions.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 28 2014, 7:50pm
Post #23 of 37
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Thanks for the clarification, Avandel.
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Of course, Sauron could have still sent his forces the long way 'round to gather more goblins from the mountains. We do know that they don't arrive at Erebor until after the factions of the Free Peoples.
Or perhaps Sauron's plan was to sieze the Mountain by force if Smaug would not ally himself with him. A force of Orcs, Wargs, and probably also Trolls (Olog-hai) and one or more Ringwraiths could likely overcome the dragon if necessary; and Smaug's hoard would provide plenty of motive for the Orcs. The dragon would submit willingly or not, or die; he was too much of a loose cannon to leave alone.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 28 2014, 7:51pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 28 2014, 8:02pm
Post #24 of 37
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Perhaps by the time of 'The Hobbit'
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Saruman could have still been deluding himself at the time of the White Council of 2851 even while he was still deceiving the White Council about the disposition of the One Ring. I will concede that by the time of the Quest of Erebor he was probably already thinking that he could overcome Sauron if he could just find the Ring first. No doubt, though, that Saruman still thought that he could be a wise, benevolent ruler and overcome the corrupting influence of the Ring.
Once Saruman learned that the Ring had been found and became convinced that Sauron might regain it, everything changed. He saw the fall of the West as inevitable and, at best, thought that by allying with Sauron he could mimize the damage to some extent.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 28 2014, 8:19pm
Post #25 of 37
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We know from the texts that before 2851, Saruman:
Lusted for power
Was a traitor in his heart
Had turned to dark thoughts
Wanted the Ring to rule the world himself
Had changed from simply wanting to defeat Sauron to envying him as a rival
No longer hated Sauron's works
I'm struggling to figure out what quote or quotes from the texts would suggest he believed himself to be good at this stage?
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