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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Sep 25 2014, 3:20am
Post #1 of 31
(864 views)
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Obama's Latte Salute - Is it a big deal???
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Well this seems to be all over the news - President Obama was stepping off Air Force 1, and saluted the Marines that snapped to attention. Problem was, he was holding a Latte in the saluting hand, and some people are very upset! So I'm wondering how other TORners feel about this. Personally I vote 4 - I think those ISIS beheaders are a bigger problem, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!
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silneldor
Half-elven
Sep 25 2014, 4:07am
Post #2 of 31
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a moment unguarded in my guess, one that held pre-occupation with a maze of thoughts in hand, but in turn brought up on a news station was George Bush's funky salute scrunched over with dog in hand as well.
In the end the nit pickers are pickin' nits. And all the while they fail to see the bigger picture, of the country being in the balance of each president striving with the complexity that would drive a ordinary soul mad. Little men dwell on little things and laugh at the expense of only themselves.
(This post was edited by Altaira on Sep 26 2014, 9:42pm)
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Arannir
Valinor
Sep 25 2014, 7:32am
Post #3 of 31
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... that some people are disappointed as the hopes Obama came into office with were just so extremely high.
But the criticism is getting ridiculous now. The USA really has to think of that is the kind of stuff they want to judge their leaders by in the future.
The campaign 2012 was ridiculous in that respect already... one wrong look during the debates and BAM - s-storm on the internet, changing polls, etc.
He tackles issues that from my point of view as a foreigner who lived in the USA for a while need to be tackled, especially health care and climate change. A shame Congressis so blocked, though. A real shame. And a problem for the country as a whole. A constitutional reform may be the only solution in the near future.
It scares me with what kind of hatred the far-right in the USA feels towards this President - and most liberals. Especially the kind of news that have nothing to do with competence or politics or are even straight out lies.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 25 2014, 1:22pm
Post #4 of 31
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They're arguing over the wrong thing.
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Civilians do not have the privilege of making a military salute. Though the US president is constitutionally the military Commander-in-Chief, he still is a civilian. Therefore the US president shouldn’t be making a military salute in the first place.
Frankly the military salutes presidents make while exiting Air Force One and Marine One look sloppy, amateurish, and, since they’re walking down steep stairs while doing it, dangerous.
IMHO, they should stop that nonsense.
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Sep 25 2014, 1:36pm
Post #5 of 31
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Not a good salute, but just possible that the President of the United States was busy and had a lot on his mind when he did it. Is this really all people have to worry about?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 25 2014, 2:37pm
Post #6 of 31
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...and we have more important things to concern us.
As to civilians not needing to salute, Pres. Obama is the Commander-in-Chief, so it is entirely appropriate for him to return a salute. Just please remember to transfer your coffee cup to your other hand, sir.
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wonderinglinguist
Lorien
Sep 25 2014, 5:09pm
Post #7 of 31
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....There's a whole lot of hatred on the far-left toward anything conservative. Both groups are like children throwing tantrums, really  We would do much better to focus on things that actually matter and stop trying to one-up each other.
It scares me with what kind of hatred the far-right in the USA feels towards this President - and most liberals. Especially the kind of news that have nothing to do with competence or politics or are even straight out lies.
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Meneldor
Valinor
Sep 25 2014, 6:59pm
Post #8 of 31
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What Darkstone said, in spades.
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Also, Obama has never been in the military, so he has not been trained in the correct procedure of military salutes. Therefore, he shouldn't try to act like he knows how to do it. I'd prefer to see him just nod his head as a simple gesture of respect.
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Loresilme
Valinor
Sep 25 2014, 7:10pm
Post #9 of 31
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What is the proper response for a civilian?
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I'm not familiar with this type of protocol. Is there a situation where military would salute a civilian? If there was such a situation, is there an appropriate response the civilian should give?
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Sep 25 2014, 7:13pm
Post #10 of 31
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Both groups do tend to throw temper-tantrums, and I've lost all respect for both GOP & Dems. I wish there was a middle-of-the-road third party in the USA. I should have mentioned that I am former military and a conservative, but consider this latte salute a non-news item. The fact tht it even got mentioned just helps further divide this country. I fear the worst, sometimes.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Sep 25 2014, 7:18pm
Post #11 of 31
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I'm not familiar with this type of protocol. Is there a situation where military would salute a civilian? If there was such a situation, is there an appropriate response the civilian should give?
The only civilian that the military would salute is the commander in chief, but up until Reagan the President didn't return the salute. I believe that before Reagan the President would just nod & keep walking, but Reagan felt that was disrespectful to the military. Anyway, he set the precident that has been followed ever since. And the only reason I even know that is because of this stupid "news" item! It should die a quick death.
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Magpie
Immortal
Sep 25 2014, 7:21pm
Post #12 of 31
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If Obama decides not to salute when it's commonly been done Regan started it... does he then face criticism for *not* saluting?
In this day and age.. you can't win. Not only will an action or opinion one takes have someone vehemently opposed to that... we now have people with a mindset that will criticize those they disagree with no matter what that person does.
I've actually experienced this with a member of a group I was in. It didn't matter what I did, she really didn't like me and she was upset with anything I did. If I planned something... I was controlling. If I left things flexible and last minute... I wasn't making sure that X, Y, and Z happened. Man... I can still remember team meetings where we'd all take turns debriefing how the season had gone and when we got round to L., she'd take a breath... look at me... and start in.
I don't think Obama meant any disrespect. It looks to me that his mind was on other things as he came down the steps and was jarred back to the real world by realizing he had almost missed the salute. I can imagine being in that situation and having milliseconds to decide what to do and even if I did the wrong thing... did I do it out of disrespect or just out of momentary lapse of attention and a brain that doesn't work in speeds of milliseconds. :-)
So is the issue that he was disrespectful in this one instance... or is he disrespectful for something that apparently four other presidents did before him? (and don't forget... Obama was criticize for not wearing an American flag lapel pin at some point - people are watching!)
I'm sure glad I'm not put in front of people to be judged in matters like this.
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Loresilme
Valinor
Sep 25 2014, 8:26pm
Post #13 of 31
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Just want to make sure I know what to do, should I someday ever find myself in the position of being saluted by the military   .
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 25 2014, 9:00pm
Post #14 of 31
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Though I've seen a photograph of FDR seemingly giving a really sloppy salute while reviewing troops.
But yes, even if Obama went around pooping out free gold bars for every man, woman, and child in America some people would still complain about having to bend over to pick them up.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 25 2014, 9:51pm
Post #15 of 31
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...though not required by regulation, all members of the seven US Uniformed Services salute anyone wearing the Medal of Honor even if the recipient is in civilian clothes.
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Sep 25 2014, 9:58pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 25 2014, 9:53pm
Post #16 of 31
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As was once explained to me...
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...the military salute is equivalent to the civilian courtesy of tipping one's hat. Since few civilians wear hats to tip anymore, the proper civilian response to a military salute would be a simple nod of the head.
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Loresilme
Valinor
Sep 25 2014, 11:16pm
Post #17 of 31
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the military salute is equivalent to the civilian courtesy of tipping one's hat.
I had thought that the salute was a sign of respect with more structure to it, that there was a protocol around who salutes first, for example, depending on the hierarchy of the people involved.
In any event, it does put any President in a bit of an awkward spot. It puts them in the position of either having to do something which in that instance actually is correct form, yet seems to observers who are not familiar with the protocol to somehow be not correct form, or doing what seems to be correct form (saluting), but actually is not.
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Dame Ioreth
Tol Eressea
Sep 26 2014, 12:39am
Post #18 of 31
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Wasn't FDR Assostant Secretary of the Navy?
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Would that make him more likely to salute back?
I think Regan saluted because he was ex-military, serving during WWII assigned to what amounted to Hollywood duty. He did more combat in his films than he ever saw in real service. But still I imagine old habits die hard and it might have been more second nature to him than a president who had never served.
I'm betting every president has made a similar kind of gaffe. It's a non-starter for me. I'm firmly and proudly an undeclared independent.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 26 2014, 1:22pm
Post #19 of 31
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Your assumption is quite correct.
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The protocol for military salutes is quite involved, just as is that for tipping gentlemen's hats. In earlier times a breach of hat tipping etiquette could well be cause for a duel!
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 26 2014, 1:37pm
Post #20 of 31
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I've heard some say that the Secretary of Defense, as well as certain very high ranking civilians in the Department of Defense such as the Secretary of the Navy, may receive military salutes, though I can't recall any specific regulation. It may be protocol particular to the military personnel assigned to the department.
As for Reagan, as I recall the story he began feeling awkward and thought he should do more to acknowledge a salute. He asked the Commandant of the Marines if he could salute back, and the Commandant supposedly replied "You're the President, sir! You can do anything you $#@% want!!"
So using the Commandant's logic there should be nothing wrong with Obama's latte salute.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Sep 26 2014, 10:19pm
Post #22 of 31
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If in uniform a junior (be he a private or a general) always salutes a senior officer, whether walking the sidewalk or walking up or down stairs. (There are a few exceptions, e.g. indoors, buses, planes, hands full, etc.)
If a military person in civilian clothes comes across an officer he need not (should not) salute.
The president need not salute as he is in civilian clothes. A nod will do nicely. (It’s time for our presidents to go pre-reagan with the salute.)
Of more import to me is for ALL to either salute (if in uniform) or to place your hand over your heart (if in civies) when the flag passes by or the anthem is played.
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sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea
Sep 27 2014, 2:51pm
Post #23 of 31
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so he should salute, but i think an informal salute is just fine, even with a cup of coffee on occasion. Can you imagine how many times a day he has to salute?
And then there's that photo of Bush 2 saluting while holding his dog which has been making the internet rounds. Where was all the outrage then?
(This post was edited by Altaira on Sep 27 2014, 6:05pm)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Sep 27 2014, 4:01pm
Post #24 of 31
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To salute or not to salute - that is the question...
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so he should salute, but i think an informal salute is just fine, even with a cup of coffee on occasion. Can you imagine how many times a day he has to salute? Yes – NONE! He's the president, he can do what he wants. His (Obama's) saluting action is deplorable (as well as Bush's).
And then there's that photo of Bush 2 saluting while holding his dog which has been making the internet rounds. Where was all the outrage then? Quite visible if a liberal cares to research. But agreed he should NOT salute (dog or no dog – same as Obama latte or no latte).
39 presidents found no reason (correctly) to salute.
Reagan started something he thought was respectful (correctly) of the military.
Presidents are too awkwardly preoccupied to salute correctly and should not do so IMHO
(This post was edited by Altaira on Sep 27 2014, 11:53pm)
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Altaira
Superuser
Sep 27 2014, 6:11pm
Post #25 of 31
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--> Judgmental comments about one party/believe or another have been edited
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Please remember that our members span many different believes, political parties, races, etc.. The beauty of this site is that we all come together, regardless of all our differences, due to the things we have in common: Tolkien, love for the LOTR/Hobbit movies, etc.. Let's please be careful not to risk driving a wedge through the very special things we have in common, or risk making *anyone* here uncomfortable because of their political beliefs, even if they differ from yours. There are plenty of places on the internet that exist specifically for that purpose. TORn isn't one of them.
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