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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Sep 22 2014, 2:23pm
Post #1 of 47
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Emma Watson is taking back the word "Feminist"!
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Really having trouble posting this, here's another shot:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/2014/09/22/emma-watson-feminist-united-nations/16039061/
Well I can't seem to get the link to work, sorry. Emma Watson is now the U.N. Woman's Goodwill Ambassador, and here she's giving a speech about feminism, and how it's become equated with "man-hating," when in fact she's asking for equal treatment, equal opportunity and equal pay. This kind of fits into a post I wrote last week about young female entertainers, and do they really have to take their clothes off to be noticed? I cited Emma as one who has chosen NOT to go that route, but this is so far above anything I wrote that I'm totally blown away! Emma Watson, I salute you!!!
Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!
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Annael
Immortal
Sep 22 2014, 3:04pm
Post #3 of 47
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in other words, using it as it's always been meant
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As someone who was active in the heydey of the women's liberation movement, I got really tired of the "I'm not a feminist but I believe in equal pay etc. for women" cliche often spouted by women of the generation that followed mine and who benefited greatly from what we'd accomplished. When I graduated high school, hardly any women got into law or medical schools still.
However, I agree with Joss Whedon that when you add "-ist" to a word it has an unfortunate effect (as in racist, sexist), and that we really need a new word. Is there one that means "person who thinks everyone should be able to control their own life choices instead of being told by others what they can and cannot do, and should be hired/accepted into programs and rewarded for the work they do based solely on merit"? Fair-ite? Equalitarian?
To be sane we must recognize our beliefs as fictions.
- James Hillman, Healing Fiction
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
(This post was edited by Annael on Sep 22 2014, 3:06pm)
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Loresilme
Valinor
Sep 22 2014, 3:36pm
Post #4 of 47
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Thoughtful, articulate, sensitive. It's wonderful that such a famous and influential young woman has made such exemplary choices about what to do with her celebrity. I applaud her.
Thanks for sharing that link :).
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Dame Ioreth
Tol Eressea
Sep 22 2014, 10:22pm
Post #5 of 47
(1324 views)
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I'd much rather cheer for people in general than one group over another. (Unless we're talking baseball then I get cranky.  )
I do not use the label feminist for myself because I want everyone to have the same rights without having to label them women's rights or men's rights (Or LGBT or minority or any other group really). What I applaud in Emma Watson's speech is that she points out this inequality that exists is everyone's issue. Women are being mistreated or given less than their due and it's People (with a capital P) who should be standing up because these women are the People you may know - wives, daughters, sisters, mothers, aunts....
I think the feminists lost a lot of the second generation (and some of mine too) when they made the message too much about men keeping them down and demanded special treatment outside of equal to make up for that offense. The programs worked - there are now more females in sports, academics, all manner of jobs - but it set them apart in many cases as a special group that needed special treatment. To many in that second generation who had "made it" it made them feel like they were being singled out because they couldn't make it without that special treatment. Some women also saw other women getting into places where they truly didn't belong but because of quotas or special hiring, they were in jobs and didn't have the qualifications or the expertise. Everyone was pushing them to get to the goal and they got check-boxed all the way there whether they had truly earned it or not. In the case that I know personally it was a woman in Medical Physics who was supposed to be a Post-doc but was unable to answer questions put to her about her poster because she didn't know the basic math and physics behind the science. She just plain wasn't qualified but was given kid glove treatment and was not called out on her lack of knowledge for fear of peeving off the wrong group.
In healthcare, I've encountered a group that has a similar image issue and it's because of it's members and how they choose to highlight their mission. It is the Pink ribbon breast cancer folks and the healthcare providers that have bought into that whole concept of woman-centered care. First, it is overwhelmingly a disease that women get (and die from) but men also get it too and often get marginalized care. In the extreme version of the treatment model practiced at some centers, only women treatment providers (doctors, nurses, radiologists, technicians) are welcome on the team. Male personnel are seen to be less effective, less able to be empathetic in the correct way, less likely to see the patient in the way that is proscribed by the female experts to make her "comfortable". It treats male health care providers as 2nd class citizens from the get go. It's bull, but it's a form of discrimination that is allowed and even wrapped up in a big pink bow.
There was also another group within feminists groups that found it easier to view as less worthy women who chose "traditional" roles instead of pushing the envelope for more inclusion in "traditionally male" roles. There was talk of letting down the sisterhood or settling for less as if these types of roles were second class to career-outside-the-home roles. That also turned off many women who saw either or both career and family as valid choices for a modern women.
I hope the natural progression of what Ms. Watson is talking about is allowed in the future - a time when we talk about people not special interest groups. Joss Whedon said some thing else that is very true. When asked why he wrote so many strong female characters his response was (paraphrased) - because you're still asking me that question. The question still needs to be asked because women are still not getting equal treatment but at the same time, women are keeping the sex card in play too.
Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
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Cirashala
Valinor
Sep 23 2014, 4:47am
Post #7 of 47
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I'm one of those "sell outs", according to feminism, because I am a stay at home mother who practices sewing, makes clothes for her family, cans food, gardens, homeschools my children, am a Christian and practice female head covering.
I am very intelligent, and at one point was pursuing pre-med with interest in gynecological/obstetrical specialization before a sleep disorder caused me to not even remember attending class, let alone pass my tests 
Does that mean I'm a "sell out" for choosing a more traditional role? Does that mean I'm a "sell out" for doing things that I love, and committing to my children's education, to feeding my family (let's face it- we can both cook but I am way better at it than my husband is!  ), to sewing and providing for my family? Am I a sell out because I often offer to babysit, and because my friends and I do a "sitting swap" where we trade off hours with each other's kids so no one has to pay (hint- none of us are well off and can drop thirty dollars a pop for a sitter)? Does occasionally volunteering in the church nursery mean that somehow I'm less of a woman?
NOT ON YOUR LIFE.
Here's the thing that people forget- I CHOSE IT. I had the freedom to choose (though it was somewhat inhibited by health issues, but those can strike anyone) what I wanted to do with my life. After much self introspection, I chose this.
No, it doesn't make me stupid. No, I'm NOT a victim of chauvinism. I chose to be a hardworking housewife and mother, and a Christian woman who has chosen to wear a head covering as per 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 even though no other women in my specific church do so. I chose it out of personal conviction (though I do not judge others for not doing so).
I believe that all people, no matter race, religion, creed, lifestyle, or gender should have the freedom to choose what they will do with their life. I believe everyone should be paid the same for the work done, that everyone should be given the opportunity, and that people should be hired based on qualifications, NOT other criteria (I really dislike Affirmative Action for the same reasons you cited- because often unqualified people get jobs over qualified people just to fulfill check boxes- in fact, I'd rather have a 4.0 GPA doctor than a 2.0 GPA one and gender/race/etc wouldn't matter a lick to me over having someone who is actually qualified to do the job).
In fact, I would 100% support phone interviews ONLY with gender neutral voice recognition installed on it so that job offers are truly based on qualifications over gender/race/etc. But we have check boxes instead....
In the step to breach inequality, we've gone to the opposite extreme- now the most discriminated person in the US is the Caucasian male. I am not a male (obviously)- does that entitle me to put males down or expect special treatment/opportunities because I'm female?
Discrimination is discrimination, no matter who it is against. If a person is judged or treated unfairly due to their race, gender, lifestyle, etc it's still discrimination, even if it's not "the usual" discrimination. A white male who is judged for being either white or male is still being judged based on race/gender.
I'm glad people like Emma Watson are pointing this out. Extremes do not help ANYONE.
I am an advocate for true equality and the freedom to choose what an individual will do with their life for EVERYONE, no exceptions (other than abortion, because that's against my faith as I believe life begins at conception).
Who's with me? 
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Annael
Immortal
Sep 23 2014, 5:09am
Post #8 of 47
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here's my concern about your and Ioreth's posts
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whenever a change is needed in society, there's always anger and over-reactivity on the part of the people who are the ones suffering from what is wrong. As a result the message that they are trying to get across can be "too much" for a lot of people - especially the people who don't think there's a problem, who tend to provoke even more vehement argument from the people trying to change things because they get frustrated with not being heard or understand. But they also get criticized for being "too much" from people who agree with them, but want them to be . . . quieter, less pushy, about how they're going about it.
This is normal. Happens every time one group in society tries to speak up about anything. There's a pendulum swing that happens where people go "too far," then there's a swing back the other way (that seems like a regression to the people trying to change things). and then there's a new, not as violent swing before a new equilibrium reached.
So people were very vehement in the 60s and 70s about civil rights and women's rights, then there was a reaction, and now we're seeing another pendulum swing back to women and minorities speaking up more once again. But I think women in particular have caught more heat for being "too" pushy, too loud, too angry, because women are supposed to be NICE. What I hear is people saying "oh, I totally agree with the goals of the women's movement, but I don't like HOW they're going about it!"
And honestly, it pisses me off.
If women were never pushy, NO ONE WOULD EVER BE BORN.
What I want to see, ultimately, is a world in which any choice that a woman makes for her life receives equal respect from others - whether it's to be a mom, a career woman, an artist, an athlete. I believe that women who REALLY want to be mothers will never be fully respected for that choice as long as ALL women are expected to become mothers.
To be sane we must recognize our beliefs as fictions.
- James Hillman, Healing Fiction
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Cirashala
Valinor
Sep 23 2014, 5:30am
Post #9 of 47
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I think you may have misunderstood me
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What I want to see, ultimately, is a world in which any choice that a woman makes for her life receives equal respect from others - whether it's to be a mom, a career woman, an artist, an athlete. I believe that women who REALLY want to be mothers will never be fully respected for that choice as long as ALL women are expected to become mothers.
That's what I was trying to say. I wasn't harping on women for choosing not to be mothers- in fact, the couple my husband and I are closest to do not, nor will ever, have children. They not only feel "called" and content to be auntie and uncle to their friend's kids (he's an only child and her brother has problems) but she has issues that would require a great deal of drugs and hormones should she ever wish to become pregnant. So they are childless by choice.
My point was merely stating that I have been treated ill by radical feminists for choosing to do what I do now. Not saying everyone has to do so at ALL- just trying to point out how extremes can hurt things and have consequences.
I remember seeing a video- a very poignant one- about what the suffragists had to go through to obtain a woman's right to vote in the US. In fact, we had to pick a year for history class for a major project back in school, and the year I drew was 1919- the same year that women were finally granted the right to vote.
I remember the vivid imagery of the hunger strikes, force feeding, being strapped to wheels, the prison cells- all in order to make their voices heard. I agree with that, and am quite grateful for these women who stood up so that we can be represented today without fear of inequality (at least, that's how it should be).
What I am merely trying to say is that there is an opposite extreme that feminism has reached now- the "man hate". It's very similar to the "white hate" that Caucasians experience. It's almost as though the attitude is that "your grandfathers/great- grandfathers, etc repressed ours, so now it's your turn to be repressed."
THAT'S the attitude I'm trying to reject here (and from what I understand, that was also the thing that Emma Watson was speaking against). Children cannot be held responsible for the sins of their fathers unless they repeat the same sin themselves- they should only be held accountable for their own actions. I am sorry if my male ancestors repressed women (I don't know if they did or not, but if so I am sorry). But that doesn't give me, as a woman, the right to repress men just because at some point in history men repressed women and now it's "payback time"- how is that fair? How is that equal?
That was my main point- that extremes in any direction can lead to further discrimination of a particular group, even if said group shifts over time from one extreme to another.
If a woman wishes to be a mother, fine. If she wishes to be a career woman, fine. If she wishes to be both, fine. She should have the right to choose. And the same goes for men- why should a man be mocked for being a stay at home dad? Why should a man be mocked because he actually takes part in his kids' lives? Why should a qualified man lose a job opportunity because there's an unqualified woman out there and they need to check that quota box?
I just want the world to be equal for everyone. I don't want more extremes in any direction, because someone is always going to end up with the short end of the stick. That was my point in my previous post, is all.
And when differences of opinion are made, it's not just women who should be nice and respectful- the men need to be nice and respectful too, IMO. It has nothing to do with gender- it has everything to do with being polite. And I don't care what type of genitals a person has- if they're rude, I don't like them.
Change happens because people push and strive to make it happen. But it doesn't always require being bossy or pushy. Sometimes change can come about when both genders are willingly polite and respectful.
Look at Ghandi 
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Annael
Immortal
Sep 23 2014, 6:11am
Post #10 of 47
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what I heard Emma say was that it's time people stop equating "feminist" with "man hater" - and then you say there is an opposite extreme that feminism has reached now- the "man hate".
this makes me so sad and frustrated.
To be sane we must recognize our beliefs as fictions.
- James Hillman, Healing Fiction
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
(This post was edited by Annael on Sep 23 2014, 6:18am)
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Cirashala
Valinor
Sep 23 2014, 7:21am
Post #11 of 47
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she is trying to promote more awareness to dispel said myth, right? That it's possible to be feminists without hating men?
Sorry- sometimes it takes a few tries of me rewording something for my brain to process what is meant  Especially when I've been going on a migraine for three days now...if I don't get it this time then I will drop off the conversation so I don't frustrate you further
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Dame Ioreth
Tol Eressea
Sep 23 2014, 1:10pm
Post #12 of 47
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It's a very heated subject with opinions and many sides
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I'm sorry that my post of cherry-picked for one sentence in one response (that ended up making my post appear to support only a very narrow viewpoint) and I'm sorry I pissed someone off in another. I am neither June Cleaver nor Gloria Steinem and my post was trying to point out viewpoints outside both boxes to each side. I'm a conscientious objector when it comes to the mommy wars. I do not fight for either side.
My point was that women were turned off for the reasons I stated; women, the group the feminists were supposed to be representing. And it isn't just parts of my generation (born at the tail end of the Boomers) who didn't feel the love for Feminism with a capital F, but my daughter's generation who see a more global, more inclusive way forward, women like Ms. Watson. Sure you have to be loud, sure you have to trod on toes to get yourself heard. No one said that "nice" would win the day. I'm a firm believer in all of that, and I have done some of that for other causes and been vilified for doing so. At the same time, no one said that anyone would get a big warm fuzzy hug for sticking to the cause either. (Maybe it's because I am a mom, but I don't expect thank you for doing what is right. I'm used to not being thanked. ) I never talked about being nice about things - I talked about being fair - to the entire sex being represented no matter what they chose and to the people who were outside that group but being affected by the change too. Instead many Feminists (with a capital F) formed a very exclusive club for awhile and only those who passed certain tests of loyalty were allowed entry. In place of the good 'ol boys club we got a good ol' girls club. And it turned many people off.
These new activists want equality period. They speak out on issues that affect women but they reach out to all. And in the process of speaking about women, they end up speaking for other groups too. Discrimination based on any characteristic is wrong but any group claiming discrimination based on what they are fighting is "wronger" I believe is off-base. This new "feminism" is getting away from blame and going for solutions. They network with all and reach a wider audience, not by being "nice" but by speaking in terms that everyone can get behind. Cute slogans aside (and I pushed 5 separate times so I get it), angry only gets you so far. You want results, state your case in terms that a wider audience can understand and get behind.
I agree, it is a product of the maturing of a movement. The swings to extremes never reach a majority, they only cater to the fringes. I think we're all probably in agreement that we want the same thing. I think it just depends on temperament and life choices how comfortable we are with the path and I believe everyone is allowed an opinion on that path. I applaud this new twist, reaching out to the entire population, making it important to all of them. In the end, I hope we're talking about equality for all, not just one group. It is what I teach my daughters and sons. Respect the person for who they are not what they are and speak up for those who have a lesser voice because everyone (yes, everyone) should be allowed to live the life they choose.
Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
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Arannir
Valinor
Sep 23 2014, 1:35pm
Post #13 of 47
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It is also a joy to listen to her speak about this topic (as well as when she speaks about acting, her movies etc). Very deep and thoughtful.
I strongely support that campaign - as a man. Though being male, I totally understand what she refers to when she speaks about the negative undertone, some people connect with feminism and feminists these days.
The same is happening to LGBT-activists. Because there has been some (not nearly enough) progress in many Western countries, people now often tell us "What more do you want? You got enough already! You are over-doing it!"
I won't even comment on how patronizing this is to someone affected - but more importantly on how wrong it is.
As long as the social pressures remain strong - even if varying from region to region, country to country - the movements have not lost their cause and purpose and MUST not stop. Whether these social pressures tell a woman on how to find her role in the world or whether they tell someone that their love for one another is not equal to those of others, it will take ordinary people to speak up against inequality. And it is good to have figures such as Emma Watson and the institution of UN Good Will Ambassadors to help with this process.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Sep 23 2014, 1:40pm)
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Magpie
Immortal
Sep 23 2014, 1:51pm
Post #14 of 47
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One might remember I said in that other thread...
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"I will say, I'm a proud feminist (and I'll define that word for myself and refuse to let others decide what I mean and then criticize the position they've assigned to it)"
because that's always what happens.
For any position or belief or fanbase... there is always a variety of opinions and personalities to express them. There is ALWAYS a continuum with extremes on either end.
I choose to claim the term feminism because it means something positive to me. (I hope one always would remember how much hope I took from all the wonderful men I know that support the positions that are important to me on this issue. I can assure people, I am not a man-hater or a 'man' blamer.)
But if people want to debate or argue with me, they're often putting up some notion of feminism that is drawn from some extreme branch of the movement and then either shooting down my opinions along with those extreme opinions or asking me to defend those extreme positions.
It would make as much sense to say 'feminists hate stay at home mothers' (I was a stay at home mother for the first 10 years of my kids life) as it does to say 'Young people today are disrespectful', 'Muslims want to kill American' and 'Tolkien Book Fans hate Peter Jackson'.
I am blessed to be immersed in a community that is full of social and political activism. In that group, there are people with whom I might agree but make me roll my eyes. They don't represent me. They represent themselves. Let me represent me but let me choose to retain the identifying label so as not to abandon it to those with extreme positions.
But mostly, the people I know embraced freedom of individuals to make choices. They support equality for all and don't exclude individuals from respect because they don't fit some parameter in terms of what they do, what their marital or parental choices are, how they dress, or what their education level is.
WE ... those of us with mostly pleasant temperament and open, accepting hearts are Feminists and Equal Rights for All advocates. (I say mostly because I can get worked up once in a while and I won't apologize for all those moments. lol)
LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide
(This post was edited by Magpie on Sep 23 2014, 1:52pm)
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Annael
Immortal
Sep 23 2014, 4:37pm
Post #15 of 47
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was the focus on the extremists in the movement as a reason for condemning the entire movement. It's a human tendency to polarize things - we wouldn't have the whole male-female issue if we didn't do that! - but I find it very frustrating that people tend to say (and I am not saying that you did this) "because there are extremists in your movement I regard everyone in the movement with suspicion." Take politics. I firmly believe that the vast majority of people are pretty centrist, really, but because of the frigging spin doctors and talk-show hosts etc. we've been taught to regard the "other side" as extreme and unreasonable/stupid/whatever. DRIVES ME NUTS.
I've been a feminist all my life. I'm also very close to my dad, my brothers, and a whole host of men friends. I like sex with men, and married one. I also believe with all my heart that men have suffered every bit as much from the polarization of male & female into specific roles & abilities as women have (maybe not financially, but definitely in terms of their ability to have open, honest relationships). This is what anyone would know about me if they took five minutes to talk to me about what I think. But I can't tell you how many people have decided on no evidence at all that I am a "femininazi." A very intelligent man I've known for years shocked me greatly earlier this year when I said I had a book coming out about the heroine's journey; he immediately assumed that the book was all about "male bashing" and NOTHING I could say changed his mind. I gave up on the conversation after he accused me of being a man-hater, and the friendship as well. I had thought better of him - he's a minister and trained psychologist, as well as a very well-read, thoughtful person most of the time, but clearly, he has a big issue with women that I bumped into without intending to.
So which one of us is the "hater"?
To be sane we must recognize our beliefs as fictions.
- James Hillman, Healing Fiction
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NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Sep 23 2014, 4:54pm
Post #16 of 47
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Well there's some great discussion about the meaning of the word Feminist. I was a teenager in the 1970's and quickly picked up a reputation as one - I was nicknamed "Sarge." Ironic, since I later joined the Air Force and became one for a brief time! Despite my willingness to serve in the military I've been told multiple times I can't be a "true" feminist because I'm pro-life (sorry, can't help it and won't debate that here). So none of my support for equal pay, equal opportunity, equal education, etc. means anything because I fall on the wrong side of that one issue? I think that's crazy. I work for a living, always have. I'm also a Mom, and because of that I chose to have a less prestigious career (I'm a secretary) in order to have the time to spend with my daughters. I want them to have every opportunity to excel at whatever they pursue, and always saw myself as a role model for them (despite the less that prestigious career) because I worked to provide, managed the home and finances, and encouraged them to read, form their own opinions and be able to speak their minds. They don't have to agree with me on anything - not even that one issue. But now that they are grown I am thinking about making a mark of some kind. I have the freedom to re-invent myself, have a third career of sorts, and hopefully neither my gender nor age will be held against me. That's really all I ask. Thanks for the brilliant discussion on this topic!
Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 23 2014, 5:55pm
Post #18 of 47
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Which is basically French for Equalitarianism.
As for us white males, a lot of us still don't get we're not losing our equal rights, but our unequal privileges. It's a case of "I can't see a problem whose entire definition is that it affects people other than me."
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"My friend,” said Gandalf, “you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonoured dotage; and her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on.
“Think you that Wormtongue had poison only for Théoden's ears? ‘Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among their dogs?’ Have you not heard those words before? Saruman spoke them, the teacher of Wormtongue. Though I do not doubt that Wormtongue at home wrapped their meaning in terms more cunning. My lord, if your sister's love for you, and her will still bent to her duty, had not restrained her lips; you might have heard even such things as these escape them. But who knows what she spoke to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in?”
“I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
And I’ll be on my way!
“If a land don't understand you,
No matter how many regimes,
Saddle up, do not wait,
Don’t waste time at the weapontake.
Muster out of that roll call.
Ride Windfola out to your dreams!
“If the house of Eorl is nothing more,
Than a barn where brigands drink,
Their brats and dogs roll on the floor,
Then you know what the door is for,
Muster out of that roll call,
Wash Rohan into the sink!
“I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
And I’ll be on my way!"
-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings
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Dame Ioreth
Tol Eressea
Sep 23 2014, 5:59pm
Post #19 of 47
(1224 views)
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People do tend to pick white or black. Gray is hard to define. It's sad that people leap to conclusions about anyone. One would think that a friendship over years would have exposed that kind of tendency or those opinions. I wonder where it came from fully formed all of a sudden.
I think you'd agree that the feminist movement had some very loud "man-haters" that did plow the ground, plant the seeds and water thoroughly the seedlings of that reputation, even if they are defined as extreme elements. They may not have been the majority but their voice was loud and not widely discredited by their own. Extremes may not define the movement, but they color the message, for good or bad.
I think it's also fair to say that one can work for the same endpoint without having to join the club.
Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
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Arannir
Valinor
Sep 23 2014, 6:21pm
Post #20 of 47
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The reaction to Watson - the filth, the threads, the venom proved that. What sick minds...
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea
Sep 23 2014, 6:40pm
Post #21 of 47
(1223 views)
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"I really dislike Affirmative Action for the same reasons you cited- because often unqualified people get jobs over qualified people just to fulfill check boxes"
You seem to have a deep misunderstanding of what affirmative action actually is and has done for our society.
"now the most discriminated person in the US is the Caucasian male."
This is wrong in so many ways i wouldn't even know where to begin.
Laws preventing discrimination do not somehow magically discriminate against others. They ensure that certain opportunities (jobs, housing, marriage, equal pay...) extend to all people, and not just a select, historically favored few.
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Annael
Immortal
Sep 23 2014, 7:46pm
Post #22 of 47
(1216 views)
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as I said, I'm old enough to remember when people who WEREN'T white males were unlikely to get accepted to law or medical school or get hired for many professional jobs. Affirmative Action was an attempt to level the playing field, and that went both ways: women and minorities got a fairer shake, and yes, white males lost SOME of their unfair advantages, as Darkstone says, and some feel that is "unfair" to them. But the statistics still show that they make more money for the same work.
Still and all, the fact that people can see these laws as "unfair" does indicate how far we've come from how it used to be . . . just as young women who have choices my generation had to fight tooth and nail for saying blithely "I'm all for equal rights but I'm not a feminist" is also a sign of how much better life is for them.
To be sane we must recognize our beliefs as fictions.
- James Hillman, Healing Fiction
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 23 2014, 9:28pm
Post #23 of 47
(1201 views)
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I grew up in the southern United States and still remember segregated schools, waiting rooms, bathrooms, and seating on buses.
I went to school in the late 1950s and 1960s and saw nothing but white faces. (Except for high school in the South Oak Cliff section of Dallas where a handful of us white kids were the minority.)
I took science and math classes in college in the 1970s and saw nothing but white male faces.
I got a job in the 1980s inspecting industrial facilities and except for secretaries and cafeteria servers saw nothing but white male faces.
That began changing in the 1990s.
Nowadays I see smart and dedicated students, workers, and managers made up of a wide variety of faces.
Where the heck did all these talented people come from?
And I realize that millions of similar faces indeed existed in the 1980s, and 1970s, and 1960s, and the many decades before, but were excluded simply because the possessors weren’t white males.
What a huge loss to society!
We really needed to fix that, not just for women and minorities, but for all our sakes. Affirmative action was a way that worked.
******************************************
"My friend,” said Gandalf, “you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonoured dotage; and her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on.
“Think you that Wormtongue had poison only for Théoden's ears? ‘Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among their dogs?’ Have you not heard those words before? Saruman spoke them, the teacher of Wormtongue. Though I do not doubt that Wormtongue at home wrapped their meaning in terms more cunning. My lord, if your sister's love for you, and her will still bent to her duty, had not restrained her lips; you might have heard even such things as these escape them. But who knows what she spoke to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in?”
“I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
And I’ll be on my way!
“If a land don't understand you,
No matter how many regimes,
Saddle up, do not wait,
Don’t waste time at the weapontake.
Muster out of that roll call.
Ride Windfola out to your dreams!
“If the house of Eorl is nothing more,
Than a barn where brigands drink,
Their brats and dogs roll on the floor,
Then you know what the door is for,
Muster out of that roll call,
Wash Rohan into the sink!
“I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
And I’ll be on my way!"
-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings
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Magpie
Immortal
Sep 23 2014, 9:57pm
Post #24 of 47
(1200 views)
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article: "Emma Watson Threatened With Nude Photo Leak for Speaking Out About Women's Equality"
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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at Slate:
http://www.slate.com/...ers_threaten_to.html
The article touches on some of the conversation we had last week about the nude photos and a point I made to my husband on that topic. the website (threatening to release private photos of Watson) features a photo of Watson wiping away tears. The choice is a telling one, demonstrating that the point of releasing these photos—or threatening to—is not the pleasure of seeing someone naked. After all, there are millions of images of naked women who happen to be consenting available online. It's about getting those tears, the pleasure of hurting and humiliating a woman who offended you by being unobtainable, and by standing up for other women.
I followed a link at Slate to another article: I Stand With Emma Watson By Phil Plait (also at Slate)
I won't quote that article here but it almost made me cry because this man is like many I know and admire and I use their encouragement and support as a shield against the angry ugliness that exists in contrast.
LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Sep 23 2014, 10:28pm
Post #25 of 47
(1206 views)
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I wish I could say that I'm shocked, but that would involve being surprised - which I'm not. The arc of history may bend towards justice - but that doesn't mean it isn't littered with the very worst scum of humanity (using that word lightly) along the way.
Ms. Watson's message is more important than ever in the light of such comments, threats, etc. She's chosen an extraordinary path in life, and I applaud her for her efforts.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Sep 23 2014, 10:30pm)
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