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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Don't remember book but re film will Thorin and Dain ever actually talk (poss. spoilery)
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Avandel
Half-elven


Sep 20 2014, 10:13pm

Post #1 of 28 (2960 views)
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Don't remember book but re film will Thorin and Dain ever actually talk (poss. spoilery) Can't Post

So from the Empire article there was the snippet that Thorin sees Dain & co. coming, and I am suspecting? from the trailer that POSSIBLY that sight is fueling Thorin's almost happy maddened contemptuous defiance - tho I don't KNOW that, obviously, since trailers shots are out of context, and Thorin (and dwarves in general) seem to be the kind that will defy you to the death - certainly Thorin would...



Do does Thorin ever actually speak with Dain? I don't see how they could given the circumstances...tho being war veterans not sure it is necessary, I am sure Dain takes one look at the situation and knows what to to do.Shocked

And since the Legos are out:




Is this Dain? I posted this once before and was told it was just a random dwarf, but doesn't look like they blinged up Dain a lot, so I am thinking it COULD be him?




Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu






~Medieval Soul
The Shire


Sep 20 2014, 10:58pm

Post #2 of 28 (2694 views)
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This is Dain. [In reply to] Can't Post

That dwarf looks too young.



Moahunter
Rohan


Sep 20 2014, 11:41pm

Post #3 of 28 (2375 views)
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In the book Dain does not meet up with Thorin before the battle. [In reply to] Can't Post

Dain arrived with the Goblins hard on his heels. He joined forces with Gandalf, Thranduil and Bard and his place in the jointly agreed battle plan was on the Eastern spur with men.


Avandel
Half-elven


Sep 21 2014, 12:43am

Post #4 of 28 (2314 views)
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Thank you - that was an interesting detail re goblins [In reply to] Can't Post

I fuzzily remember the book and didn't remember Thorin and Dain having contact, but the detail of the goblins already being after Dain & co. was blank.

OK, can't see any reason for that to change much, if at all, for the movie - with Thorin I assume having a high vantage point, he can readily see what's going on as the battle progresses - and I do know of some of the more desperate measures that go on later.Frown

*Those that are dead will never die*.


Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu






Avandel
Half-elven


Sep 21 2014, 12:47am

Post #5 of 28 (2351 views)
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I've see that and thought it was fan PS job? [In reply to] Can't Post

Done very early on re speculating what Dain might look like?


Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu






Moahunter
Rohan


Sep 21 2014, 1:26am

Post #6 of 28 (2309 views)
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I might have given the wrong impression. [In reply to] Can't Post

The Goblins weren't in pursuit of Dain. Its just that Dain &co. arrived first and wanted to go to join Thorin in Erebor..
I did find this "... the raven-messengers had been busy between Thorin and Dain" so there was a plan. But Dain and Thorin hadn't literally talked about it.


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Sep 21 2014, 1:45am

Post #7 of 28 (2313 views)
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It's from the card game. [In reply to] Can't Post

It was made for the Lord of the Rings card game a long time ago. There are a lot of other cool ones with characters that didn't make it into the movies like Tom Bombadil and the sons of Elrond.


Avandel
Half-elven


Sep 21 2014, 1:47am

Post #8 of 28 (2279 views)
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Understood and thank you again [In reply to] Can't Post

I had been thinking that even briefly, an interchange between Bill Connolly and Richard Armitage would have been interesting re the caliber of the performers, and we would see some extended dwarf family interchange outside of the main cast.Heart

But assuming the cart is how Dain is reached, there will be some of that, just not canon. Still keeping my fingers crossed for at least a group of ravens flying overhead, as an iconic symbol.

And the thought occurs to me that while it may not be the prologue everyone hopes for, one prologue could be simply the Iron Hills dwarves seeing ravens overhead, and knowing from that something is happening, as perhaps the story could be spun that these ravens only appear in times of danger for the dwarves. Just a thought connecting back to the many folklore stories of families that have particular warning signs that appear only to family members. It would be a way to introduce Dain immediately and without the problem of talking birds.

Just a thought.


Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu






Avandel
Half-elven


Sep 21 2014, 2:21am

Post #9 of 28 (2271 views)
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Thank you - re the cards that is too bad [In reply to] Can't Post

*Gloomily* I love fantasy movie and book art, too bad so much has been cut back - except the generous fans and artists who share online. Tho I did love the image series that was done for AUJ.Heart
(Image: Goldberry from Deviant Art)




Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu






Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Sep 21 2014, 3:20am

Post #10 of 28 (2297 views)
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Dain is supposed to be younger than Thorin... [In reply to] Can't Post

Besides, that is not actually the Dain we will see in the movie, that was made many years ago for the LotR card game.


~Medieval Soul
The Shire


Sep 21 2014, 5:31am

Post #11 of 28 (2249 views)
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I didn't know that. [In reply to] Can't Post

I read somewhere that the pic was the going to be the Dain from the movie, sorry.
Well, if you say Dain is supposed to be younger than Thorin, why do you think they cast Billy Connolly to play him when the actor is so much older than Thorin's actor?
Anyone?


(This post was edited by ~Medieval Soul on Sep 21 2014, 5:36am)


Elanor of Rohan
Lorien


Sep 21 2014, 6:31am

Post #12 of 28 (2235 views)
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we should make a distinction [In reply to] Can't Post

Between book and movieverse once again.
In the book Thorin is the oldest dwarf. He is old even for a dwarf. So, even if Dain is certainly not young, Thorin is older even than him.
In the appendices, in the battle of Azanulbizar, Dain (who kills Azog on that occasion, don't let's forget about it) is referred to as a mere "stripling", while Thorin, and Frerin, are young warriors.

In the movies Philippa Boyens has explicitly declared that they wanted a "younger version" of Thorin, one who could become King and sire an heir of his own, and therefore, a younger actor who could play a young Thorin in the prologue and in flashbacks.

Since there are no particular needs about the figure of Dain (and Dain is not shown in Azanulbizar), Dain is the same age, more or less, as in the book, so he is fairly old, and older than movie Thorin.
That said, Billy Connolly can be coherently older than Thorin in the movies.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 21 2014, 1:30pm

Post #13 of 28 (2167 views)
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Movie-Thorin is older than he looks! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In the movies Philippa Boyens has explicitly declared that they wanted a "younger version" of Thorin, one who could become King and sire an heir of his own, and therefore, a younger actor who could play a young Thorin in the prologue and in flashbacks.

Since there are no particular needs about the figure of Dain (and Dain is not shown in Azanulbizar), Dain is the same age, more or less, as in the book, so he is fairly old, and older than movie Thorin.
That said, Billy Connolly can be coherently older than Thorin in the movies.



The tapestry that Bard locates in Lake-town provides the years of birth for both Thorin and Dain. They remain unchanged. Thorin was born in TA 2746 and Dain in 2767, eleven years later. Thorin looks younger but remains the oldest dwarf in the company. Keep in mind that dwarves from some of the eldest lines can live up to around 400 years.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 21 2014, 1:32pm)


Avandel
Half-elven


Sep 21 2014, 3:56pm

Post #14 of 28 (2125 views)
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Think we need the Bill Connolly fans here [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally don't know much about his work, but looking at Wikipedia and articles BC has a very rich professional biography, and has often been considered a brilliant performer. (Seems to be a feisty, fiery kind of guy - saw an interview with him where he was talking about filming the Hobbit and having a doctor in a hotel telling him to be checked for Parkinson's Frown which in fact turned out to be correctFrown.)

IMO Peter Jackson's casting for the Hobbit films has been impeccable, re putting his version of the story on screen. So I'm thinking re Dain it's less about Thorin's vs. Dain's age (especially since a lot of the audience won't know these details + prosthetics) and whether when casting Dain, is this someone that the audience will accept as a leader, and as Lord of the Iron Hills dwarves, and a renowned warrior - e.g. an actor with enough sheer presence.

Reminds me of a line from the Appendices from one of the casting staff "the right person for the right job, doesn't matter where they come from." And for me the very words "Iron Hills dwarves" evokes tough bad-assery, so I'm gonna expect the leader of the Iron Hills dwarves to be the baddest of the badassesCool.


Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu






VeArkenstone
Lorien

Sep 21 2014, 6:48pm

Post #15 of 28 (2132 views)
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I do not think they ever talk in the book, but ... [In reply to] Can't Post

something does occur between them as Thorin lay dying, Thorin bestows the throne to Dain. I am a huge fan of both Billy Connelly and Richard Armitage, so am hopeful that PJ will take the opportunity to fill in what happened between Dain and Thorin as Thorin nears his death. And between Bilbo and Thorin (which is covered in the book), and between the surviving Dwarves and Thorin, etc.

Please, call me Ve.


Avandel
Half-elven


Sep 22 2014, 6:36am

Post #16 of 28 (2055 views)
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Hey Ve! As a BC fan, why would you think PJ chose him for Dain? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you see this post...BC seems to be another hand picked by PJ - any qualities you might mention that makes BC a good choice for Dain?

Far as I recall from an interview, BC is not one who is enraptured by the wonders of Middle EarthCool


Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu






VeArkenstone
Lorien

Sep 22 2014, 9:12pm

Post #17 of 28 (2017 views)
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I pretty much know him only from his comedy routines. [In reply to] Can't Post

His thing was, here is this person who is saying something or doing something, but what they are really thinking or really want to do is something completely different, and hilarious. I know he was in a couple of movies, but I have not seen any of them and don't think they did very well at the box office.

I am strongly attracted to his voice, I have always been attracted to certain voices (Richard Armitage and Benedict Cumberbatch, as well as others in PJ's movies, have great voices). As he went through his routines, the tone of his voice coupled with his voice inflections coupled with his strong Scottish accent coupled with his body language coupled with his intelligent and sometimes scathingly funny comedy, well, it is just neat to watch. He always made me laugh and he has been on my list of the Top 5 Men I Would Most Like to Be Stranded with on a Desert Island for quite some time.

Whew, having said all of that, I think PJ definitely made the right decision casting him as Dain. I can just feel it will be a good match. I just hope that he has enough time as Dain to convey what a great Dwarf Dain was and some of the characteristics he possessed that made him one of the great Dwarf Kings.

Please, call me Ve.


(This post was edited by VeArkenstone on Sep 22 2014, 9:26pm)


Avandel
Half-elven


Sep 23 2014, 12:11am

Post #18 of 28 (1990 views)
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Thank you! What a great answer! [In reply to] Can't Post

Now you've got me so intrigued time to go look BC up online - I too love a great voice and personally think, depending, it can make or break a scene or a character. Not everyone can be a Richard or a Benedict or an Ian, but for certain roles think voice is critical (I am wincing thinking about when a speech didn't work, like some of the recent sci-fi movies).

Plus I have read more than once that comedy is one of the most difficult forms of entertainment to do, so actually for me that is a big point in Connolly's favor. Think it takes a certain sensitivity to do great comedy, and flawless timing.


Quote
I just hope that he has enough time as Dain to convey what a great Dwarf Dain was and some of the characteristics he possessed that made him one of the great Dwarf Kings.


That's the thing - but *sigh* suspect most of the audience won't REALLY know about Dain in Tolkien's universe - and that he will also fall (eventually), defending an ally....seems to be a theme of sorts with Tolkien? Or a Norse-influenced theme...



Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu






patrickk
Rohan

Sep 23 2014, 2:19am

Post #19 of 28 (1979 views)
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He has been in a few films... [In reply to] Can't Post

...one of which, Mrs Brown, was regarded as a Box Office success (well and truly covered its small budget), and was a great two-hander film between Billie Connelly and Judy Dench, for which BC got nominated for a BAFTA (British acting Oscar). So he is no slouch on the big screen.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 23 2014, 2:40pm

Post #20 of 28 (1961 views)
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No. Dain and Thorin are never shown together in the book. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
something does occur between them as Thorin lay dying, Thorin bestows the throne to Dain. I am a huge fan of both Billy Connelly and Richard Armitage, so am hopeful that PJ will take the opportunity to fill in what happened between Dain and Thorin as Thorin nears his death. And between Bilbo and Thorin (which is covered in the book), and between the surviving Dwarves and Thorin, etc.



You are mistaken. The only conversation that the dying Thorin has in the text is with Bilbo (although Gandalf greets him when he ushers the hobbit into Thorin's tent). He is never depicted passing the throne on to anyone else. It is just assumed that Dain has the right of succession.

What Peter Jackson will do with the scene is anyone's guess.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


VeArkenstone
Lorien

Sep 23 2014, 4:35pm

Post #21 of 28 (1944 views)
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I recently watched StarTrek Into Darkness with Benedict Cumberbatch. [In reply to] Can't Post

I really like this movie. And Benedict's voice, wow!

You are probably right, Dain may get lost in the shuffle of everything else that needs to be going on. Heavy sigh. I could have sworn, though, that he and Thorin do have a conversation while Thorin is on is deathbed, but we don't know what that entailed. I have loaned my copy of The Hobbit to a friend so I can't confirm that myself. I should probably read that again anyway, some of it is becoming a little sketchy.

Starting to look into BC's movies and just watched Her Majesty\, Mrs. Brown. I need to say this word one more time, wow. Definitely worth the watch.

Please, call me Ve.


(This post was edited by VeArkenstone on Sep 23 2014, 4:47pm)


VeArkenstone
Lorien

Sep 23 2014, 4:39pm

Post #22 of 28 (1941 views)
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Got curious about BC's movies and just watched Her Majesty, Mrs. Brown. [In reply to] Can't Post

What a great movie! Looking for some of his other movies to check out, if you have any recommendations, please pass them on.

Please, call me Ve.


VeArkenstone
Lorien

Sep 23 2014, 4:45pm

Post #23 of 28 (1933 views)
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I am to going reread The Hobbit, but it may not be before the release of BO5A. [In reply to] Can't Post

Parts of it, I am sorry to say, are becoming fuzzy since it has been awhile.

I am hopeful that PJ will have Dain and Thorin have a conversation about something, even it be just quick 10 word sentence. But, like you say, who knows?

Please, call me Ve.


(This post was edited by VeArkenstone on Sep 23 2014, 4:49pm)


Avandel
Half-elven


Sep 24 2014, 12:24am

Post #24 of 28 (1915 views)
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Ooooh love the ST films [In reply to] Can't Post

I was surprised that I did enjoy them so much, but both films are just plain good movies, really enjoyableHeart. And Benedict was fascinating to watch, as well as having this FASCINATING voice. It impresses me, reading Benedict's comments in the WETA Smaug book - well, actually, I appreciate all about Smaug so much more after reading that book (has me having really high hopes for Beorn's depiction in the battle, because I think that is going to be critical!)

I guess the thought was vaguely in my mind what, in the films, Dain might say confronted with a "not quite himself" Thorin - BUT. Feel pretty sure that this dragon sickness (as was talked about on the board in earlier threads) doesn't make you non-functioning, and in a situation where dwarves - and dwarves that are relatives and allies yet - are under siege, both Thorin and Dain under these circumstances would both be getting down to military strategy. So maybe Dain wouldn't even notice what is going on with Thorin. Unsure

Unless, as the trailer may be showing, it's the dwarves in the cart that make it to Dain and tell him everything, including Thorin's condition. (Which IMO since Thorin is a kinsman and there's a big pile of dwarf gold, and just the principle of the thing - thanks to you I know a lot more about the various and sad battles that had gone on between dwarves and elves in the past - maybe in the films we will see a Dain who can't wait to throw the Iron Hills dwarves into this. At least at first.)

Getting lost in the shuffle? I don't know! Look at Lindir...admittedly for different reasons, but this tiny part captured the attention of the fans enough to bring him back all these years later (and get his own website LOL). So if Connolly is really charismatic and wonderful as you describe, maybe he will be in for some UNEXPECTED Hobbit fandom. Which will be hilarious as Bill Connolly had made some pointed snarky remarks about Hobbit fans in the past *snigger*.Evil He has NOSly idea, I think, until he is the target of that kind of fan love, and whatever he thinks of Hobbit fans, Bill Connolly is now officially part of the legacy of the Middle Earth films, forever and ever.WinkCoolLaugh




Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu






Avandel
Half-elven


Sep 24 2014, 12:47am

Post #25 of 28 (1908 views)
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I won't re-read the Hobbit before the films [In reply to] Can't Post

I won't do that to myself - posted it before but to this day LOTR was kind of blighted for me, because my own mind would not shut up, thinking, that didn't happen, this wasn't like thatUnsure. TORn members have been kind when I really needed something from the Hobbit book filled in for me, because I really don't want that to happen again. People say, why can't you just sit back and enjoy the movie for what it is, and I did enjoy LOTR, but at the same time it's tough to just turn your mind off.Unsure

One day tho I will re-read the Hobbit and most likely appreciate even more all the tie-ins and analogies from the book that PJ and his team worked to put into the films - some I have learned from the WETA books as well. I'm just crossing my fingers for a hint, or more, of the ravens! But the raven motifs on the dwarf armor are already incredible - and I really think BOFA ought to mention the connection with the house of Durin to the raven symbol.HeartHeartHeart



Despite the violent imagery associated with them, early Scandinavians regarded the raven as a largely positive figure; battle and harsh justice were viewed favorably in Norse culture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_banner


Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu





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