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Kim
Valinor
Sep 20 2014, 2:25am
Post #1 of 57
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DOS Chapter of the Week: Smuggled Cargo
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I hope everyone enjoyed the CHOW party last weekend! Now back to our regularly scheduled programming. 
Requisite warning: here be photos of a majestic nature, RD, prepare yourself!
The scene opens with Bolg and the orcs scouring the rocks next to the river where not long before, the dwarves had landed. They discover dwarf blood, and the scent of man. Peter Jackson said that the first time he went to this site when he was a child, he imagined it as a perfect place for monsters. And years later, he finally got them there.
1. What did you think of the orcs in this scene? Does the CGI look better in the fog?
2. Do you agree with Peter Jackson that this is a good place for monsters?
3. Did you catch the quick glimpse of Fili’s pipe on the rocks?
We move on to the dwarves and Bilbo now on Bard’s barge, making their way across the lake in the fog. There are patches of ice in the lake. The approach some ruins that appear out of the fog and Bofur calls out, “Watch out!” and Bard steers them around the ruins. Thorin then asks, “What are you trying to do, drown us?” Bard answers that if he’d wanted to drown them, he wouldn’t do it there.
4. What did you think of the change of scenery and atmosphere/weather? Daniel, can you give us an overview of how fog forms over a lake?
5. What do you think Bard was up to here? Innocently travelling the route he’s taken hundreds of times? Or perhaps trying to intimidate his passengers?
6. What do you think of Thorin’s stylish new rope belt?
Dwalin expresses his displeasure with the “lippy Lake-man” while Bilbo let’s everyone know his name. In the meantime, Balin attends to more practical matters and counts out the money to pay for their passage. When they come up short, Thorin immediately turns to Gloin.
7. Did you like how Bilbo took the trouble to learn Bard’s name when none of the dwarves did? What does this say about the nature of Hobbits? What about the fact that Dwalin was ready to toss Bard over the side?
8. How does Thorin know to turn to Gloin when they come up short of funds?
At that moment, one by one, the Company stands up in the boat as Erebor looms out of the fog. This is really the first up close view that the dwarves had of the mountain since that far off glimpse at the top of the Carrock.
9. What effect does this view have on Thorin? Gloin? And the rest of the Company? What do you think is going through their minds at this moment?
Bard then approaches asking for the money and claims there are guards ahead as what appears at first to be more ruins loom out of the fog.
Next we see Bard striding along the docks as we discover the dwarves and Bilbo hiding in the barrels. Bard is talking to someone and appears to be selling them out.
10. What did you expect would happen next? That they would be captured? Did you expect them to be covered in fish?
I think my favorite part of this scene (well, behind all of the fantastic shots of Thorin in the fog) was the image of the fish covered barrels floating by as we hear the dwarves in absolute misery under all that. And then we hear Bard telling them to be quiet as they approach the tall gate, which ends the scene.
11. So, what were you’re overall impressions of this scene? Music, lighting, change in weather?
12. Any other thoughts, tidbits or observations?
As always, I will end with:
Thorin’s hair: once again, Thorin can’t encounter a new type of weather without his hair looking just as magnificent as ever! Fog obviously agrees with Thorin’s dark curls, striking the perfect balance between the wet and dry look. 
Join us every weekend for The Hobbit Chapter of the Week discussions!
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Retro315
Rivendell
Sep 20 2014, 6:42am
Post #2 of 57
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1. Generally speaking I've felt that "orc chases" have been overused to the point of stripping orcs of their mystique and telegraphing the heck out of the Battle of Five Armies "twist". Seeing the orcs track dwarves is irrelevant ... and kind of weird, because they're NOT for some reason using wargs, which must be far better trackers. Plus the river only flows in one direction ... but that's what happens when an entire faction is shoe-horned into the wrong spot in a story.
2. Oh it's a lovely location. I won't gripe about location shooting and the fog was gorgeous.
4. I generally believe this barge ride is too long. Gloin withholding coin? Totally unnecessary. The glimpse of the mountain's proximity was nice, though, Bilbo's "introduction" of Bard was a neat workaround, and the ambiance of the fog and ruins was brilliantly evocative. Autumn is really setting into the feel of the story.
5. I thought the tough guy bluff and bravado was all a bit unnecessary. Quiet, damp, cold misery would've been more in keeping with the book. But the flourish was okay - just showing in movie imagery how familiar he is with the place as a local. Painting a picture of his skills.
7. I like Dwalin but at this point his devotion to Thorin is eating into the more important elements of the narrative. But he's sort of become the spokesperson for Dwarven grumbling.
9. Seeing the mountain is nice, and a nice bit of continuity from the last time we glimpsed it - from Bibo's POV in the tree-tops. Remember that the dwarves themselves haven't seen it since The Carrock. A nice moment.
10. I understand why they contrived the smuggle entry into the town - to give a good 20 minutes of getting to know Bard so that his meteoric rise isn't coming from nowhere. It's not a bad way to go by making him very much into a Robin Hood type figure, since the archery and speaking out against the "Master" was already there. I know I would have preferred for them to barge into the Master's feast and declare themselves, but I do like how Jackson uses the opportunity to "show" via devices and style just what this town is all about - fishing, and moving things in barrels. So I thought continuing the dwarves-in-barrels theme a bit more was a clever enough choice. In the book, Bilbo referred to the lodgings he saw on the river shores of raft-men and barge-men, and people who might gather up and tie off the barrels the dwarves were in, and this scene was very much in keeping that spirit of mannish inventiveness and "more settlements between the river and lake-town", just shifted downstream a little bit.
11. It tarried a little long, and is kind of awkward because we lose our sense of timing because of the orc interruption and don't get a good sense of how autumn things are becoming to get so cold and icy, but I like that the aesthetic seasonal change from autumn to winter coincides with a really nice introduction to the lower River and Lake-town. It's once they're IN Lake-town that it really tarries far too long, or gets divergent. But more on that next time.
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Arannir
Valinor
Sep 20 2014, 9:54am
Post #3 of 57
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Don't have the time to answer all but wanted to state that this is one of the atmospherical best scenes in DoS.
It also gives a nice little character moment for Gloin. Things like this should have been added a little more, imho.
I hope we will get the "never venture east" scene in the EE. :)
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Noria
Gondor
Sep 20 2014, 9:07pm
Post #4 of 57
(1744 views)
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1. What did you think of the orcs in this scene? Does the CGI look better in the fog?
--The Orcs always look OK to me; CGI and prosthetic Orcs look equally good and bad to my eyes.
2. Do you agree with Peter Jackson that this is a good place for monsters?
--Not really - it looks like a lovely spot to me, at least when the Dwarves and Bard arrived there. As darkness started to fall, the fog rolled in and the Orcs arrived, it became spooky. The Orcs make everything tawdry and ugly anyway.
3. Did you catch the quick glimpse of Fili’s pipe on the rocks?
--I saw a Dwarf pipe but didn’t know it was Fili’s. For me the bloody rag and puddle were more interesting though.
4. What did you think of the change of scenery and atmosphere/weather? Daniel, can you give us an overview of how fog forms over a lake?
--I am happy with the change in scenery; we had been in Mirkwood long enough. I liked the look of the Long Lake and Laketown when we catch a glimpse of it at the end of the sequence.
--As for the weather, summer had changed to autumn during the journey but we already saw that in Mirkwood when Bilbo climbed the tree. Fog in this season on a large body of water like the Long Lake seems fine to me. I was surprised to see so many fairly thick chunks of ice floating around in the lake in autumn because the freeze up doesn't really work that way where I live, but I’m no expert on climate.
5. What do you think Bard was up to here? Innocently travelling the route he’s taken hundreds of times? Or perhaps trying to intimidate his passengers?
--Whether or not this was the route that Bard normally took when transporting barrels, it was likely chosen deliberately that day with the idea of smuggling the Dwarves into the town. Bard would have known that there would be fishermen there and maybe hiding the Dwarves under fish was his plan all along. It seems to me that he was no stranger to smuggling.
--It’s possible, I suppose, that Bard may have been trying to startle his passengers, both to show off his skill and take a little of the wind out of their sails, so to speak. Some of them had been a little surly with Bard.
6. What do you think of Thorin’s stylish new rope belt?
--Didn’t really notice but I did notice once again how well the blue suits him.
7. Did you like how Bilbo took the trouble to learn Bard’s name when none of the dwarves did? What does this say about the nature of Hobbits? What about the fact that Dwalin was ready to toss Bard over the side?
--I thought that Bilbo learning Bard’s name while Thorin and Dwalin were indifferent to the point of rudeness was a good way of differentiating between the more open and friendly Hobbit and the secretive, suspicious Dwarves. Bilbo is not afraid to call out Thorin and Dwalin on their attitude.
--As for Dwalin tossing Bard over the side, there is no doubt that in the family of Balin and Dwalin, Balin got the brain and Dwalin the brawn. What Balin said in Bad End about being sharp enough for both himself and his brother was perfectly true. What would they have done in a boat outside Laketown after having murdered Bard? I love Dwalin!
8. How does Thorin know to turn to Gloin when they come up short of funds?
--Well, it has been suggested in the Chroinicles and interviews that Gloin’s back story is that he was a merchant who financed the quest. Whether or not that’s true, it would seem that Thorin knew that Gloin was carrying money and would have to be persuaded to part with it.
9. What effect does this view have on Thorin? Gloin? And the rest of the Company? What do you think is going through their minds at this moment?
--It was a lovely moment when Erebor gradually became visible through the fog and we heard the soft strains of the Erebor theme as the Dwarves see the Mountain for the first time. I imagine that all of them were moved at the sight and the thought that after all the trials and dangers they had encountered on the road, the end was in sight. It moved Gloin enough that he forgot his penny pinching and gave all his money to the cause.
10. What did you expect would happen next? That they would be captured? Did you expect them to be covered in fish?
--I didn’t expect Bard to betray them or that the Dwarves would be captured yet. I assumed that Bard had some scheme, but the fish were a total surprise. It’s always funny when these grumpy yet badass Dwarves get put in these ridiculous positions.
11. So, what were you’re overall impressions of this scene? Music, lighting, change in weather?
--I enjoyed this scene, with its character moments for several of the Dwarves, Bilbo and Bard, the first glimpse of Erebor, the suspense over what Bard was up contrasting with the comedic moments. We learned something of Laketown before we arrived and without anyone actually saying much about it.
-- I appreciated the eerie beauty of the fog covered lake in the semi-darkness, the backlit stone ruins and Laketown in the distance.
--As always I like the music which to me conveys a certain amount of tension and urgency without going over the top. I consider it to be the preamble, so to speak, to the Laketown theme and it segues beautifully into the main Laketown theme just a little later.
--As for the weather, I’m accustomed to a climate in which autumn and summer battle it out for some weeks before autumn, closely followed by winter, wins. Yesterday it was just above freezing here at dawn but today the temperature may reach the low 20s C°. So the rapid onset of autumn with some lingering summerlike weather works for me. It is the ice in the lake that I don’t get.
12. Any other thoughts, tidbits or observations?
-- I liked Bard’s boat and the skillful way he handled it since I've never seen that before.
Thanks Kim.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Sep 20 2014, 9:09pm
Post #5 of 57
(1756 views)
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More great scenes in a great movie
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1. What did you think of the orcs in this scene? Does the CGI look better in the fog?
Thought the orcs here looked wonderfully creepy and very real - was a good setting for them, they are the stuff of a bad dream here - esp. when the camera is close and you can really see the metal imbedded into Bolg's skin - eeuuw. Mostly I think the orcs and the CGI look pretty good, tho from time to time there are those "digital character" shots like the end of the barrel chase when the orcs are running after the barrels and Tauriel is looking after them. Would it really cost so much to have the costumed actors run along the bank and shoot some footage *sigh*.
2. Do you agree with Peter Jackson that this is a good place for monsters?
Er, no, being a nature lover, guess you have to be a horror movie buff to think like that. It reminded me of the upper New York state parks around Watkins Glen, and looks like a place I would like to hike and camp in
3. Did you catch the quick glimpse of Fili’s pipe on the rocks?
Whoops - no. But generally when the Heirs of Durin are on screen, I am not paying attention to anything else. But love attention to these little details!
4. What did you think of the change of scenery and atmosphere/weather? Daniel, can you give us an overview of how fog forms over a lake?
Bodies of water, such as lakes, ponds, and rivers, are much slower to cool down than land areas are. During clear fall nights, the warmth of the land escapes into space. As the air over the land cools, it will drift over the warmer pond. A thin layer of air above the pond is warmed by the pond water. Water evaporates from the pond's surface into this thin layer. The thin, warm, moist layer of air over the pond then mixes with the cooler air from the land. As it cools, condensation occurs and a fog forms. It looks like steam rising off the water, hence the name "steam fog." In the spring, the ponds are usually colder than the surrounding land. Just as they are slow to cool, they are also slow to warm. (Barbara McNaught Watson)
Loved it - for me, it telegraphed the change from one realm, or region even, to another - almost fairy or dreamlike in quality, and yet faintly ominous. Did I say I loved that?
5. What do you think Bard was up to here? Innocently travelling the route he’s taken hundreds of times? Or perhaps trying to intimidate his passengers?
I do think this is an area Bard is very familiar with, and since he snarks he wouldn't drown the dwarves here, I suspect having been "born and bred" on these waters Bard is very familiar with every inch of the lake. It's unknown if this is the way he would always travel, as he needs to make a stop to deal with hiding his cargo - and working out how to smuggle the dwarves into Laketown might be making Bard tense. And he's cynical about the dwarves anyway - justifiably, because why couldn't they approach the Master directly - I'd be a bit dubious too. But I don't think, at all, he was trying to intimidate the dwarves. Think dwarves in general don't spend a lot of time on the water, tho they can deal with it.
6. What do you think of Thorin’s stylish new rope belt?
I loved that touch, because the belt looks like macrame, re the association with mariners:
Sailors made macramé objects in off hours while at sea, and sold or bartered them when they landed, thus spreading the art to places like China and the New World. Nineteenth-century British and American sailors made hammocks, bell fringes, and belts from macramé. They called the process "square knotting" after the knot they used most frequently. Sailors also called macramé "McNamara's Lace".[1]
So to me this little detail is another realistic touch - I could picture Bard idly knotting cord as he waits on barrels, and Thorin finding it once on the barge and using it to bind up the long tunic he is in, for both comfort and his dignity. It's another little symbol of the connection with the water that Laketown has, like the fish motifs and the glass floats that are hung about. Plus, it seems like something Thorin would do - not being particularly vain, but Thorin isn't a slob, either, far as I can tell. Don't think that would be typical for dwarves, and most certainly not a king.
7. Did you like how Bilbo took the trouble to learn Bard’s name when none of the dwarves did? What does this say about the nature of Hobbits? What about the fact that Dwalin was ready to toss Bard over the side?
Yes, because proper introductions would be a "hobbit" thing to do, and also shows the differences in hobbit nature vs. the dwarves - Bilbo is still far more willing to be open and friendly and inquisitive and believe the world is a good place. As for Dwalin (and possibly Thorin) - well, I think for especially the warriors they'd be fools to not consider taking the boat. Because they don't know if they can trust Bard, as the movie shows (I know I'd be thinking about it, and weighing the idea, in the same circumstances) Really well-done dynamics here!
8. How does Thorin know to turn to Gloin when they come up short of funds?
*Bangs head on desk and sighs* - well, here we go - all those lovely dwarf back stories that never got told in AUJ. Gloin as many of us know was a character who was probably a merchant and financed the quest, and there is even a picture of Gloin looking at coins (when I can find it again). So it would have been nice to have had one little line in AUJ highlighting Gloin probably being one of the "moneybags" of the group. So this line is nice, as it does accent Gloin's character, but IMO would make more sense if we had seen more dwarf characterization in AUJ.
9. What effect does this view have on Thorin? Gloin? And the rest of the Company? What do you think is going through their minds at this moment?
A pivotal moment that makes this quest real for them - especially I think Kili and Fili and others who were not even born in Erebor, but only know it from stories - and yet this is their family seat and legacy. For Thorin and those from Erebor, the mountain is so achingly close, and they have all been through so much to get here. I think Thorin's mind is in constant turmoil this near, and through much of the barge and Laketown scenes we see Thorin even standing in constant tension - kudos to Richard Armitage for doing so much with body language, and face. (Personally I fret for Thorin all the time, and am happy Dwalin is sticking so close....)
10. What did you expect would happen next? That they would be captured? Did you expect them to be covered in fish?
LOL I was happy that I was right  and guessed from the trailer that they would be covered in fish *grins*. For me, the minute I saw Bard pointing I felt better, because for me the scene telegraphed he was coming up with a way to hide the dwarves - e.g. he would follow through on his part of the bargain. I suppose I AM appalled at the idea of the mighty Thorin being covered in fish - so undignified! At the same time, love the character because Thorin will roll up his sleeves and do what needs to be done.
11. So, what were you’re overall impressions of this scene? Music, lighting, change in weather?
12. Any other thoughts, tidbits or observations?
As always, I will end with:
Thorin’s hair: once again, Thorin can’t encounter a new type of weather without his hair looking just as magnificent as ever! Fog obviously agrees with Thorin’s dark curls, striking the perfect balance between the wet and dry look.
Overall, now that I am really thinking about it, think really, really wonderfully done with great atmosphere and narrative flow. For me, there's the eerie transition of the fog, and the sense of travel from one realm to the next, and the sadness of the remnants in the lake that remind me as well of the fallen sculptures we see in LOTR (I am fascinated by beautiful abandoned architecture and always think about who once walked in these places - so for those interested here is one link for that sort of thing: http://weburbanist.com/...abandoned-buildings/)
I also had a sense of travel to a colder place, even before reading the WETA books where the lighting is commented on, because for me there felt as tho there was a distinct shift in the lighting - it felt more like the U.S. fall seaon, or something. And it was interesting seeing the dwarves interact with another race, and those similarities and differences. I think Luke Evans did a wonderful job - he seems to me just as tho the film Bard is supposed to be - hardworking, cynical about the motives of his cargo, but he seems to have a sense of humor too. An interesting man, and Evans' vocal nuances to me are spot on - it's so funny when Dwalin comes out of the barrel - I swear Bard is trying not to laugh.
And finally, let us conclude with this small examination of the effect of water on Thorin's hair, as the effects of wind have been previously mentioned in other posts. We note that even after a rude trip through class 5 rapids, and an exhausting fight, Thorin's wet hair merely flows into a most becoming dark scintillating coiling cascade, providing a striking frame for Thorin's damp luminous skin and spectacularly colored fierce eyes, while being beyond-stunning in its own right.
Kim, suggest it will take a separate thread to engage in a DETAILED discussion as to when Thorin's hair looks MOST perfect. I myself cannot choose, for it seems whether blown wildly by both flame and wind, soaked by storm and water and even blood and sweat, befoul'd with humidity and critters, or baking in the heat of the plains around Erebor, Thorin's mane is as the roiling waters of the sea - amazing and jaw-dropping in ALL conditions. However, I will note, that magically (of course, this being Middle Earth ) that by the time Thorin hits the docks at Laketown, there is no evidence of fish slime whatsoever to distract us from the sumptuous decadence - indeed, this brief scene alone (combined with the wonder of those eyes) has me frantically grabbing for a paper bag (and at times knocking my drink over in the process). It remains to be seen whether I actually survive the DOS EE, especially as it seems that the VOICE will also be present.
OMG
Some might question the realism of having hair THIS epic after receiving a fish conditioning treatment, but I would argue that it's no different than a little cocoa butter, and anyway Thorin's #Majestic AURA, as depicted by many an artist (as we see in this included image), simply instantaneously flames off any impurities that would desecrate this SACRED shimmering fall of living night that cloaks the Mountain King.
Anyway, not only does Thorin have to be ready for more *sigh-worthy* from-the-back-shots, there's that epic speech coming up.....*drool and hit replay*
So I will conclude my thoughts with this striking shot, one of the hundreds where the sheer fire and charisma of RA's Thorin Oakenshield just BURNS the screen - as PJ has commented, your eyes want to follow Richard, even when Thorin is silent.
Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu
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Kim
Valinor
Sep 21 2014, 3:43am
Post #8 of 57
(1713 views)
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2. Do you agree with Peter Jackson that this is a good place for monsters?
--Not really - it looks like a lovely spot to me, at least when the Dwarves and Bard arrived there. As darkness started to fall, the fog rolled in and the Orcs arrived, it became spooky. The Orcs make everything tawdry and ugly anyway.
When I first heard him say this, I thought it was a really interesting insight into his brain - I looked at that scenic landscape and just enjoyed it for what it was. I found it fascinating that he immediately pictured monsters in that particular location.
10. What did you expect would happen next? That they would be captured? Did you expect them to be covered in fish?
--I didn’t expect Bard to betray them or that the Dwarves would be captured yet. I assumed that Bard had some scheme, but the fish were a total surprise. It’s always funny when these grumpy yet badass Dwarves get put in these ridiculous positions.
I know, right? A hilarious way to end this scene that up until that point had been rather somber.
Join us every weekend for The Hobbit Chapter of the Week discussions!
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Kim
Valinor
Sep 21 2014, 4:00am
Post #9 of 57
(1743 views)
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**warning RD, more magnificent Thorin pics!**
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9. What effect does this view have on Thorin? Gloin? And the rest of the Company? What do you think is going through their minds at this moment?
A pivotal moment that makes this quest real for them - especially I think Kili and Fili and others who were not even born in Erebor, but only know it from stories - and yet this is their family seat and legacy. For Thorin and those from Erebor, the mountain is so achingly close, and they have all been through so much to get here. I think Thorin's mind is in constant turmoil this near, and through much of the barge and Laketown scenes we see Thorin even standing in constant tension - kudos to Richard Armitage for doing so much with body language, and face. (Personally I fret for Thorin all the time, and am happy Dwalin is sticking so close....)
Nice observation about Thorin's mind being in constant turmoil - it seems to be echoed by the fact that he's pretty much pacing throughout the scene, while most of the rest of the dwarves are sitting down.
And finally, let us conclude with this small examination of the effect of water on Thorin's hair, as the effects of wind have been previously mentioned in other posts. We note that even after a rude trip through class 5 rapids, and an exhausting fight, Thorin's wet hair merely flows into a most becoming dark scintillating coiling cascade, providing a striking frame for Thorin's damp luminous skin and spectacularly colored fierce eyes, while being beyond-stunning in its own right.
Kim, suggest it will take a separate thread to engage in a DETAILED discussion as to when Thorin's hair looks MOST perfect. I myself cannot choose, for it seems whether blown wildly by both flame and wind, soaked by storm and water and even blood and sweat, befoul'd with humidity and critters, or baking in the heat of the plains around Erebor, Thorin's mane is as the roiling waters of the sea - amazing and jaw-dropping in ALL conditions. However, I will note, that magically (of course, this being Middle Earth) that by the time Thorin hits the docks at Laketown, there is no evidence of fish slime whatsoever to distract us from the sumptuous decadence - indeed, this brief scene alone (combined with the wonder of those eyes) has me frantically grabbing for a paper bag (and at times knocking my drink over in the process). It remains to be seen whether I actually survive the DOS EE, especially as it seems that the VOICE will also be present. OMG
Some might question the realism of having hair THIS epic after receiving a fish conditioning treatment, but I would argue that it's no different than a little cocoa butter, and anyway Thorin's #Majestic AURA, as depicted by many an artist (as we see in this included image), simply instantaneously flames off any impurities that would desecrate this SACRED shimmering fall of living night that cloaks the Mountain King.
Excellent commentary and analysis on Thorin's hair and the various effects of wind, sea, blood, fire, and fish scales. Perhaps we should schedule a symposium to do a critical deep dive into this most fascinating and riveting of topics.
Thanks for all of the additional photos and artwork Avandel!
Join us every weekend for The Hobbit Chapter of the Week discussions!
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Avandel
Half-elven
Sep 21 2014, 5:17pm
Post #10 of 57
(1694 views)
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it seems to be echoed by the fact that he's pretty much pacing throughout the scene, while most of the rest of the dwarves are sitting down. When I think about the characters (might as well flesh things out in my head, as IMO there was never enough dwarf interaction or interaction between Bilbo and Thorin so a lot has to be "interpolated"), as Thorin gets closer to Erebor, I think all kinds of memories would be triggered - we see that when Balin enters Erebor and his eyes close with the pain of it inside the door. Can't say enough about the quality of the acting in these films!
Perhaps we should schedule a symposium to do a critical deep dive into this most fascinating and riveting of topics.
I vote for LA if Richard is going to be filming out there - not only is California the heart of both beauty (for the hair presentations) and entertainment industries, but there's always the off chance of running into Richard Armitage at a coffee shop or something. I suppose like in New York it's considered categorically uncool to NOTICE celebrities, but hey, I'd be a lowly tourist
LOL this CHOW thread inspired me to re-watch DOS last night.
I cannot wait for the EE - may have to cave and do the HD download thing - so unfair, I want the disks (and my figurine).
Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu
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Kim
Valinor
Sep 21 2014, 5:50pm
Post #11 of 57
(1686 views)
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I vote for LA if Richard is going to be filming out there - not only is California the heart of both beauty (for the hair presentations) and entertainment industries, but there's always the off chance of running into Richard Armitage at a coffee shop or something. I suppose like in New York it's considered categorically uncool to NOTICE celebrities, but hey, I'd be a lowly tourist
Excellent, I'm sure we can find a suitable venue in LA and I have no problem being a lowly tourist either.
Not to be critical of your artistic endeavors, but I just don't see how that Majesty for Dummies would work - after all, there is only one who can be THAT #Majestic. It's not really something that can be taught, there is just the one who IS. The rest of us can only gaze in wonder.
Join us every weekend for The Hobbit Chapter of the Week discussions!
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Sep 21 2014, 7:15pm
Post #12 of 57
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Heeding your advice from last week, Kim, I will no longer open your (or Avendel's) posts without a soft cushion to hand, and a bottle of smelling salts in the shape of Orcrist. (Seriously, what a great merchandizing idea! )
1. What did you think of the orcs in this scene? Does the CGI look better in the fog?
They look fine to me. What I don't understand is, if this "Morgal shaft poison" that is so toxic for Kili is in his blood, why are the Orcs taking the chance of tasting it to see if it's Dwarf blood? Is that Orc dispensible, or did he spend a few years in Australia building up an immunity to this poison?
2. Do you agree with Peter Jackson that this is a good place for monsters?
Interesting insight into Peter Jackson. Sure, it works. Not the first thing I would think of, though.
3. Did you catch the quick glimpse of Fili’s pipe on the rocks?
Yes, he must have been quite distracted by Kili's injury to lose that. Very interesting what the Elves didn't take from the Dwarves--like Oin's ear horn, Gloin's money, Thorin's map and key... Also, interesting that those things the Dwarves managed to hold on to through the barrel ride, though they lost all their metal hair and beard/mustache ornaments.
4. What did you think of the change of scenery and atmosphere/weather? Daniel, can you give us an overview of how fog forms over a lake?
Fog creeping in from the lake creates a great atmosphere. The transition from autumn to winter seems a bit sudden, since the leaves weren't even falling in Mirkwood, but I'm okay with that since I've seen many a snowfall on leaves.
5. What do you think Bard was up to here? Innocently travelling the route he’s taken hundreds of times? Or perhaps trying to intimidate his passengers?
I'm not sure. Just proving he knew what he was doing? I don't understand why he would say if he wanted to drown them, he wouldn't do it here... Would he wait for a more deserted spot? 
What I want to know is, Does Bard ever use his sail? When? Is there a current from the river that takes the barge into the lake without oars? (If so, then how did the Dwarves lose it?)
6. What do you think of Thorin’s stylish new rope belt?
Snazzy.
7. Did you like how Bilbo took the trouble to learn Bard’s name when none of the dwarves did? What does this say about the nature of Hobbits? What about the fact that Dwalin was ready to toss Bard over the side?
I get the sneaking suspicion that Dwalin just isn't as friendly as Bilbo, somehow.
8. How does Thorin know to turn to Gloin when they come up short of funds?
The backstory for Gloin is that he's the money of the group, so this is his little character moment which reveals that.
9. What effect does this view have on Thorin? Gloin? And the rest of the Company? What do you think is going through their minds at this moment?
This makes a nice parallel to the moment in the Bag End parlor when the Dwarves slowly rise in response to the Misty Mountains song. They seem almost reverent.
10. What did you expect would happen next? That they would be captured? Did you expect them to be covered in fish?
I was not expecting the fish. It is actually really funny to see the fish bombarding the Dwarves, already cramped into somewhat ridiculous positions inside the barrels.
11. So, what were you’re overall impressions of this scene? Music, lighting, change in weather?
It's nice to have some backstory on Bard, since he plays such an important part in the last part of the story.
12. Any other thoughts, tidbits or observations?
Thorin’s hair: once again, Thorin can’t encounter a new type of weather without his hair looking just as magnificent as ever! Fog obviously agrees with Thorin’s dark curls, striking the perfect balance between the wet and dry look.
Whew! That cushion came in handy! Thanks, Kim!
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Kim
Valinor
Sep 21 2014, 7:28pm
Post #13 of 57
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1. What did you think of the orcs in this scene? Does the CGI look better in the fog?
They look fine to me. What I don't understand is, if this "Morgal shaft poison" that is so toxic for Kili is in his blood, why are the Orcs taking the chance of tasting it to see if it's Dwarf blood? Is that Orc dispensible, or did he spend a few years in Australia building up an immunity to this poison?
Seriously, how is it that no one has thought to ask this before? Nice catch - I vote for Australia.
9. What effect does this view have on Thorin? Gloin? And the rest of the Company? What do you think is going through their minds at this moment?
This makes a nice parallel to the moment in the Bag End parlor when the Dwarves slowly rise in response to the Misty Mountains song. They seem almost reverent.
That is a nice parallel, I never thought of it that way.
Heeding your advice from last week, Kim, I will no longer open your (or Avendel's) posts without a soft cushion to hand, and a bottle of smelling salts in the shape of Orcrist. (Seriously, what a great merchandizing idea! )
Oh good, I was beginning to feel guilty about all those bumps on your head from the falls. Glad you come prepared at all times now (and definitely best to be prepared for Avandel's posts too, those'll knock you out but good!)
Join us every weekend for The Hobbit Chapter of the Week discussions!
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Cirashala
Valinor
Sep 22 2014, 7:56am
Post #14 of 57
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I'm not sure. Just proving he knew what he was doing? I don't understand why he would say if he wanted to drown them, he wouldn't do it here... Would he wait for a more deserted spot?
What I want to know is, Does Bard ever use his sail? When? Is there a current from the river that takes the barge into the lake without oars? (If so, then how did the Dwarves lose it?) I think the reference to drowning wasn't out of a desire for a deserted spot- bodies tend to float at least some when a person passes, and it will slowly rise to the surface as natural gasses build up inside the body (yes, I've watched enough medically accurate crime shows to know this- and I have double checked some facts such as this one out of curiosity to test medical accuracy for shows like "Bones", etc).
It's more likely that Bard did not wish to drown them there because the current would make them wash ashore. It's likely Bard would know where they would do so, and it may cause trouble for the town if they washed up in a particular place.
I am sure that Bard would use his sail if needed. A current is present in all lakes that aren't stagnant (meaning that there's a river in or out of the lake somewhere, as is the case with the Long Lake).
Also, currents don't have to happen at the surface- they're still down deep, even in a seemingly still river. And they're often deep in lakes as well, or the current at the bottom of a lake can be the opposite of a current near the top of it. If you swim to the bottom of a river (I have) you can often feel the current that's supposedly absent up top- that's why you can still drift along, albeit slowly, on a calm river. And that's why things like undertows are so dangerous- if you get caught in one, even if the top of the water seems calm, you could drown.
So basically, when Thorin said they've lost the current, they haven't actually lost it- they've just simply slowed down so much that they're crawling along at a snail's pace and it's faster to paddle onward than drift (though I imagine having actual oars, rather than sticks, would have worked a lot better ).
And the barge does have an oar- that's the one Bard is using Some boats, particularly barges or other manageable but long/wide boats will have a single oar in the back that propels the boat forward by twisting the oar in a circular motion so that one person can operate the boat should others be unavailable. Bard cannot row it by himself using two oars because it's too wide- he wouldn't be able to reach far enough, or if he did it would still be too far to generate enough force to move the boat forward. The single oar in the back solves this problem by allowing both reach and force generation to be enough to move the boat absent of a current or faster than the current is moving in a particular location.
In order to turn the boat, the operator would have to dig the oar in the water to place more force downward in the opposite direction from where they wish to go- meaning if you want to go right, you dig in by pulling the oar left at the handle, and vice versa, after establishing forward momentum. To move forward, you move the oar in a circular motion- so basically you're doing a series of alternate left/right turns in rapid succession to move the boat forward- kind of like how a shark tail moves from right to left to right in order to create forward momentum To stop, you dig the oar in straight down, but it will be a slow stop, depending on how much forward momentum you have.
Think of it like a canoe- you have one oar, and you alternate sides to keep it going straight. You alternate the circular motion to keep the barge going straight. So the oar in the back is the "shark's tail" and the boat is the "shark's body" if that makes sense
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Sep 22 2014, 11:31am
Post #15 of 57
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So it's more of an oar than a rudder?
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I'll have to watch DOS again to see how Bard works this thing. (Oh, what a terrible burden! )
So a really shallow barge like Bard's could still access the deep lake current? Or is he "paddling" with that oar? Or both?
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Noria
Gondor
Sep 22 2014, 12:18pm
Post #16 of 57
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When I first saw DoS, I couldn't figure out what was going on with Bard's boat (I refuse to say Bard's barge) until I read on this board that it was both propelled and steered by the oar at the back. I'd never heard of that but I love it. Every time I watch the movie I enjoy seeing Bard operate his vessel.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 22 2014, 4:57pm
Post #17 of 57
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I believe that Bard is sculling his boat.
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I'll have to watch DOS again to see how Bard works this thing. (Oh, what a terrible burden! ) So a really shallow barge like Bard's could still access the deep lake current? Or is he "paddling" with that oar? Or both?
Scull (verb): to propell a boat by use of an oar over the stern.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Cirashala
Valinor
Sep 22 2014, 5:17pm
Post #18 of 57
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His boat is too shallow to catch deep lake current- the deepest current he could catch would have to touch the bottom of the boat. If there is a current on the top of the lake, however, he could catch it.
Remember, Thorin mentions losing the current on the river- they weren't right next to the river mouth, where the current is a little more likely to pick up again.
So if the current is absent, then yes Bard would have to use the oar. But if the current on the lake top is present, then he wouldn't need it. But lakes typically don't have much current near the top of them except near the mouths of the rivers in shallow water.
So in that case, he would be using his oar instead- which is consistent with what we've seen in the movie (he's using his oar in every shot we see of him on the boat, rather than just standing there next to the handle).
As for the oar/rudder thing- the oar actually acts as both rudder and oar. It's used as a rudder when he turns and an oar to propel the boat forward. A larger ship/boat that does not use oars, or has oars on the side (much like how you would see ancient Greek ships with several oars on the side), will often employ a separate rudder that's like a book cover- a flat flap connected by a long pole to the steering wheel. As the wheel turns, the flap goes from side to side- and if the rudder is the proper size for the ship (unlike the Titanic ) it will "catch" the water as the boat moves forward and turn it.
An excellent way to demonstrate how a rudder works is the same way I learned about rudders in my 7th grade physics class- build a paper airplane, then bend the very back of it to a 90 degree angle from the body of the plane (only about half an inch of it or so- it doesn't need to be huge). Then try to fly it- if the rudder is to the left, the plane will turn left, and if to the right, it will turn right. A ship's rudder operates just like a paper airplane rudder
But the way Bard moves the oar to turn it- like when you see him lean extra far over after Bofur shouts to look out for the ruins, operates as both the forward motion and the rudder, thus eliminating the need for someone to operate oars and a separate person to steer the boat
(This post was edited by Cirashala on Sep 22 2014, 5:24pm)
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Eruvandi
Tol Eressea
Sep 22 2014, 5:23pm
Post #19 of 57
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I've been wanting to participate in the CHOW's more often, so here I go!
1. What did you think of the orcs in this scene? Does the CGI look better in the fog?
I’ve never been that bothered by the CGI, but it does look a little better in the fog.
2. Do you agree with Peter Jackson that this is a good place for monsters?
I don’t know about monsters, but elves and dwarves look pretty good there.
3. Did you catch the quick glimpse of Fili’s pipe on the rocks?
Yep. I guess it serves to show how quickly the company had to get moving again.
4. What did you think of the change of scenery and atmosphere/weather?
Very moody and dramatic.
5. What do you think Bard was up to here? Innocently traveling the route he’s taken hundreds of times? Or perhaps trying to intimidate his passengers?
Mostly, I think he was innocently traveling the route he’s taken hundreds of times and the dwarves are just on edge, but the intimidating nature of the route may have been a bonus.
6. What do you think of Thorin’s stylish new rope belt?
#Majestic as always.
7. Did you like how Bilbo took the trouble to learn Bard’s name when none of the dwarves did?
Yes. He's so sweet!
What does this say about the nature of Hobbits? What about the fact that Dwalin was ready to toss Bard over the side?
It says that Hobbits are friendly and personable while dwarves can be cantankerous and a little too quick to take matters into their own hands. I question whether or not Dwalin would have actually done it, though, or if it was just an empty threat to let Bard know he wasn't to be trifled with.
8. How does Thorin know to turn to Gloin when they come up short of funds?
Because Gloin is apparently a stingy ol’ cheapskate frugal about his investments.
9. What effect does this view have on Thorin? Gloin? And the rest of the Company? What do you think is going through their minds at this moment?
Seeing the mountain seemed to encourage them and maybe got them to think their goal could actually be attainable.
10. What did you expect would happen next? That they would be captured? Did you expect them to be covered in fish?
I think I got spoiled on this part of the movie before seeing it, so yes, I expected them to be covered in fish.
11. So, what were you’re overall impressions of this scene? Music, lighting, change in weather?
Overall, I liked these scenes. IMO, they did well at using the music, lighting and weather to make it feel all moody and whatnot.
12. Any other thoughts, tidbits or observations?
Since you’ve mentioned dwarf hair I thought it was cute how some of the dwarves’ hair got all frizzy as they started to dry off. Gloin looked like a fluffy Persian cat in this scene, lol!
"Home is behind the world ahead
And there are many paths to tread
Through shadow to the edge of night
Until the stars are all alight.
Mist and shadow
Cloud and shade
All shall fade
All shall fade"
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Avandel
Half-elven
Sep 22 2014, 10:49pm
Post #20 of 57
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A few coins are all that Gloin has left - "naught but misery and grief....." *sob*
Tho I hafta admit, at least Orly Legolas didn't punch any of the dwarves
Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu
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cats16
Half-elven
Sep 22 2014, 10:56pm
Post #21 of 57
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If I haven't proven that by now, I will soon.
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Sep 22 2014, 11:16pm
Post #22 of 57
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A little more information about sculling boats...
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Single oars used to scull boats are fairly common in some places. A couple of the most common types are the Bahamian oar or a Chinese yuloh. According to this page, a Bahamian-style oar of 12 feet or more can propel heavily-built dinghies of 12-14 foot up to sloops in the 25-foot range, while a yuloh of 13-15 feet long can propel a sampan of 18-20 feet (with cargo). One person can propel a largish boat by sculling with a single oar, while a boat the same size is too large for one person to row with standard side oars, and would require a crew of at least two, preferably three (two to row, one to steer by rudder). Boats which have both a sail and an oar are both common and practical in various areas of the world. If you have a breeze, great. If not, you can still get where you need to go. You don't go fast (a little more than walking pace), but you can move. Here's a page with pictures of traditional oar-driven sampans, and here's a picture of a modern boat using a yuloh.
Silverlode
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"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dûm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."
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Avandel
Half-elven
Sep 22 2014, 11:57pm
Post #23 of 57
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Needs a TORn member to gently remind me of the TRUTH of the #Majesty
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Not to be critical of your artistic endeavors, but I just don't see how that Majesty for Dummies would work - after all, there is only one who can be THAT #Majestic. It's not really something that can be taught, there is just the one who IS. The rest of us can only gaze in wonder.
With your permission, I need to re-work your statement into a sig - you have posted one of the most DEEP and PROFOUND and COMPELLING TRUTHS of existence (since 2011 or so) that I have ever read, or will ever read.
So simply, but exquisitely phrased.
... there is only one who can be THAT #Majestic. It's not really something that can be taught, there is just the one who IS...
My eyes dimmed, my mind dulled as the doldrums of every day chores wrap their slimy tendrils about me, the weight of thinking that the trash needs to be put out, the handwashing of my new shirt, what flavor of cat food do the kitties get tonight? Chicken or fish?
And shamefully , akin to seeing the most gorgeous of rainbows every day, I have so accepted the reality of this Celtic warrior god-being (without being to TRULY comprehend it - it's like thinking about the infinite universe...) that I forgot the MIRACLE of the #Majesty that dazzlingly flared across images and screens around the world, two years ago. How many of us, chuckling happily after the dwarf song, would freeze in our theater seats mere moments afterward, jaws dropping open, cell phones sliding unheeded to the sticky disgusting floor, eyes unable to blink, hearts beating erratically, the only coherent thought left being OMG!
The being that millions would instantly name MAJESTIC. Thorin Majestic, Lord of Silver Fountains, the King Under the Mountain.
A being not only of fiery, charismatic intensity with a voice like the fall of angels, but one who OWNS a magnificent nightshadow tempest of a spectacular fall of softly coiling moonlight-streaked café noir hair, so striking it has its own cyberspace following.
Kim, you were SO RIGHT to give my beige complacency a swift kick in the shins!
Such is the WONDER of Thorin Oakenshield, and so internalized is he to modern culture, I had forgotten that only a short time ago, the world did not TRULY UNDERSTAND what the word MAJESTIC meant. Now, we KNOW.
Now, we are ENLIGHTENED. The whole world has changed - and no matter what happens in BOFA, Thorin defines the Great One, the Majestic.
There is just the One who IS.
PS. Actually the Dummies thing isn't my work - funny! but I would have fussed over it a lot more *grins* It's never a chore to fuss over Thorin images.....
Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu
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Kim
Valinor
Sep 23 2014, 2:39am
Post #24 of 57
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Always happy to help a fellow TORnling
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find her way to the truth. No need to ask permission, you are most welcome to it. I'm honored by your appreciation.
With your permission, I need to re-work your statement into a sig - you have posted one of the most DEEP and PROFOUND and COMPELLING TRUTHS of existence (since 2011 or so) that I have ever read, or will ever read.
So simply, but exquisitely phrased.
... there is only one who can be THAT #Majestic. It's not really something that can be taught, there is just the one who IS...
I would never have accused you of beige complacency, on the contrary, rainbow sparkles follow you wherever you go. (awesome job on the RH image).
There is just the One who IS.
Join us every weekend for The Hobbit Chapter of the Week discussions!
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Kim
Valinor
Sep 23 2014, 2:53am
Post #25 of 57
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She arrives precisely when she means to! Glad you could join us for this week's CHOW, hope to see you around more.
2. Do you agree with Peter Jackson that this is a good place for monsters?
I don’t know about monsters, but elves and dwarves look pretty good there.
Excellent point. It was quite an excellent backdrop, wasn't it?
6. What do you think of Thorin’s stylish new rope belt?
#Majestic as always.
Very astute. I concur.
Join us every weekend for The Hobbit Chapter of the Week discussions!
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very good point!
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