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Faulty Amon Hen: theories?

noWizardme
Half-elven


Sep 17 2014, 8:53pm

Post #1 of 21 (15206 views)
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Faulty Amon Hen: theories? Can't Post

In "Breaking of the Fellowship" Frodo, wearing the Ring, climbs onto the Seeing seat of Amon Hen. He is supernaturally able to see far and side, but his visions are interrupted when he looks towards Mordor, and is nearly caught by The Eye.

Shortly later (but in The Departure of Boromir ), Aragorn also climbs up:


Quote
But the sun seemed darkened, and the world dim and remote. He turned from North back again to North, and saw nothing save the distant hills, unless it were that far away he could see again a great bird like an eagle high in the air, descending slowly in wide circles down towards the earth.


Any thoughts about why things seem to work for Frodo, but not Aragorn?

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Sep 17 2014, 9:10pm

Post #2 of 21 (14860 views)
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The Ring? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 17 2014, 9:36pm

Post #3 of 21 (14906 views)
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Working as intended. [In reply to] Can't Post

The message is: There is no message.

No one is going to tell him what to do. He has to find the answer within himself. Eventually he realizes this:

"My heart speaks clearly at last: the fate of the Bearer is in my hands no longer. The Company has played its part. Yet we that remain cannot forsake our companions while we have strength left. Come! We will go now. Leave all that can be spared behind! We will press on by day and dark!"
-The Departure of Boromir

******************************************
Suddenly the king cried to Snowmane and the horse sprang away. Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of green, but he outpaced it. After him thundered the knights of his house, but he was ever before them. Éomer rode there, the white horsetail on his helm floating in his speed, and the front of the first éored roared like a breaker foaming to the shore, but Théoden could not be overtaken. Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Oromë the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and the darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City:

There's a Great Darkness over the Pelennor,
There's a Great Darkness over the Pelennor!
Our spears’ nowhere as high as an Oliphaunt’s eye,
And the field’s full of orcs, wargs and huge Olog-hai!

Oh what a Rohirrim morning,
Oh what a Rohirrim day!
We've got a wonderful feeling,
We shall kill thousands today!

Oh, we’ll kill us some Easterling Variags,
And know we’re not given to idle brags,
We’ll battle and vanquish the Black Serpent King,
And even an undying dwimmerlaik thing!

Oh what a Rohirrim morning,
Oh what a Rohirrim day!
We've got a wonderful feeling,
We shall kill thousands today!

-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings


geordie
Tol Eressea

Sep 17 2014, 9:50pm

Post #4 of 21 (14885 views)
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a crucial sentence - [In reply to] Can't Post

'The Ring was on him.'

(Frodo)


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Sep 17 2014, 10:01pm

Post #5 of 21 (14853 views)
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I think Darkstone and Geordie are both right. [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien had more than one reason in mind--or the one reason was the means of producing the other.

And it fits in with the type of experience Aragorn has had ever since the transfer of leadership after Gandalf fell. He finds things unclear and ambiguous, and has to make the best decision he can with a far less than ideal amount of information.



CuriousG
Half-elven


Sep 18 2014, 12:58am

Post #6 of 21 (14843 views)
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The Hill of Seeing [In reply to] Can't Post

My interpretation is that the hills were meant to be symbolic, not literal. (I don't think anyone sitting on the hill of hearing could hear a pin drop in Mordor, except for Frodo with his Ring on.) Their symbolic meaning was that as frontier outposts, Gondor at its height could hear and see its enemies from afar, so beware!

Frodo didn't see anything special with the Ring off, so Amon Hen worked as little for him as it did for Aragorn, the true heir to those places.

Maybe they would work for certain people under certain circumstances? That might be the most plausible answer, because magic doesn't work 100% of the time in Tolkien's world, so maybe these places were endowed with the *potential* for hearing and seeing if the planets lined up, so to speak, but there were no guarantees.

Amon Hen did work for Gandalf, right? Though he's no ordinary guy.


DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


Sep 18 2014, 2:17am

Post #7 of 21 (14842 views)
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I agree with Aragorn not being able to know everything [In reply to] Can't Post

But I think the ring is the true answer to this mystery.




"And so they stood on the walls of the city of Gondor, and a great wind rose and blew, and their hair, raven and golden, streamed out mingling in the air."


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Sep 18 2014, 2:34am

Post #8 of 21 (14843 views)
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I do think the Ring played a part... [In reply to] Can't Post

It was said that it gave power to the person according to their stature and was hard to cast away. We have also discussed the semi-sentience of the Ring in its desire to be found. From these two facts, I infer that the Ring conferred power to the user-- a thing tempting enough for many--, but I also conjecture that the difference in the manifestations of conferred power (Hobbits becoming invisible, while Sauron went rampant in battle ) was an indication of the powers the user wished to have. Sauron desired power to dominate, Bilbo wanted to get away in many instances.

Thus I make the logical leap that the Ring had some form of symbiosis with the user, reading their thoughts and desires and gratifying them in a way to ingratiate itself as a method of self-preservation. Though it knew that it only had one master, it would still serve the wielder's wishes insofar as it guaranteed its own survival. This very thing might well make the Ring the most intoxicating poison ever devised, giving an ever present promise of deep satisfaction that only required one to slip it on one's finger. I think that at the point in time Frodo was on Amon Hen, the very thing he wished for was perspective-- what to do next. The Ring obliged him, giving him a broader view, yet twisting the vantage to Mordor once it saw a way back to its master.

Just a random thought...

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Sep 18 2014, 2:55am

Post #9 of 21 (14829 views)
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Well. I hadn't thought of that. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you've hit on something here. I don't know if Tolkien had this in mind, but it is consistent with the nature of the ring.



noWizardme
Half-elven


Sep 18 2014, 3:37pm

Post #10 of 21 (14816 views)
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The Ring... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks everyone! yesterday when I was writing the OP I was thinking "of course the Ring can't have had anything to do with it" but now I'm not so sure.

My original thought process was to infer that Amon Hen is more than a general good vantage point - the text has led me to expect something that is magically good, rather than what you'd expect to get from natural geography. If that's so, the place would never have got such a reputation if it only worked for someone wearing a Ring of Power. It must have it's own power. It would be reasonable to suppose that Aragorn would have a good chance of being able to use it, because of his Numeronean descent.

...but now I'm thinking that this is too mechanistic.

I certainly like the idea that "you get what you need" - Frodo needs to see how his mission fits into a wider picture: he respnds to being the only real hope the West has. Aragorn is all confusion. Aragorn doesn't need to see things far away at that point: he needs to hear that there are orcs attacking.

The success or failure of the hill also accords with the characters' states of mind I think

Having done a little HoME-work on this,I've found that JRRT did initially write some visions for Aragorn, who was to see Gandalf returned There's perhaps a "fossil" of this in the published text- the eagle that Aragorn does see was at one point bearing Gandalf away to Fangorn. However, JRRT clearly didn't think that worked (he wrote a margin note describing the second vision as "inartistic"!)

Christopher Tolkien comments that he guesses that the Ring and Amon Hen are supposed to be interacting, in some unexplained way. Or maybe JRRT didn't like the Aragorn's visions thing, but liked the scene otherwise, without having to explore all its mechanistic ramifications

I've entertained myself by inventing a further solution, with is an Utterly Untestable Theory, of course. It goes like this:

Frodo sees Sauron's groping conciousness pass by him like this (he has just taken the Ring off at this point):

Quote
A black shadow seemed to pass like an arm above him; it missed Amon Hen and groped out west, and faded. Then all the sky was clean and blue and birds sang in every tree.


So maybe by the time Aragorn reached that point, the Eye is back, looking in that direction and this explains the gloom.
It also might help explain how come Sauron is quickly aware of Saruman's hobbit kidnapping (though of course he could also have learned that from Saruman himself, via the the Palantir)

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Sep 18 2014, 7:21pm

Post #11 of 21 (14796 views)
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Interesting point about the Enemy's communication skills. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It also might help explain how come Sauron is quickly aware of Saruman's hobbit kidnapping (though of course he could also have learned that from Saruman himself, via the the Palantir)


Saruman dispatched his Uruks to get "the Hobbit" based on learning about the Ring from Gandalf. I'm not sure how he knew they were through Moria, unless he heard it from the Moria orcs who saw them entering Lórien and watched the area. How would that have been communicated?

There was the apparent overflight of a Nazgul while the Fellowship was on the river, but for Saruman's Uruks to get to Parth Galen would have taken some time, and Tolkien was a stickler (or at least claimed to be) for time and distance to be properly respected.

Then, once M&P were seized, we gather that the captors included three groups: orcs from Moria, orcs from Mordor, and Uruks from Isengard. We can assume that Saruman and Sauron are communicating. But communication between them and the orc/Uruk party is less clear. The flying Nazgul would help, but we didn't see them but a few times. How would either Sauron or Saruman know that Hobbit(s) had been taken?








CuriousG
Half-elven


Sep 18 2014, 8:58pm

Post #12 of 21 (14797 views)
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Mechanistic [In reply to] Can't Post

I think if Amon Hen worked reliably as a mechanism, would Gondor ever have abandoned it, or wouldn't they keep it as an outpost? (They kept Orthanc when giving up Rohan, and it was much farther away.) Or if Gondor ceded it to Rohan, wouldn't Rohan keep a "watcher" there at all times, as if the hill were a palantir? It seems too good to give up, if so.

But if it worked more randomly and mysteriously, it would make sense that it would be abandoned. That's how I see it (from my non-Amon Chicken chair).


Harold.of.Whoa
Rivendell


Sep 20 2014, 3:41am

Post #13 of 21 (14751 views)
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The living landscape [In reply to] Can't Post

All of the replies make for a fascinating discussion.

I certainly don't have any answers, but I do note that as a general principle most of the key locations that we pass in LOTR have their own 'personalities', for lack of any better term. There is living memory in Hollin. There is malice in Caradhras. There is resentment and grudge in the Old Forest.

I would have to wonder what circumstances might make Amon Hen more useful for the seeker, but I would be surprised if the place were merely static, lifeless topography.


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Sep 20 2014, 3:53am

Post #14 of 21 (14741 views)
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Yes. Good points. [In reply to] Can't Post

Too much meaning and almost poetry in the language hints at something more than high hills where you might be able to see or hear better.



noWizardme
Half-elven


Sep 20 2014, 7:11am

Post #15 of 21 (14739 views)
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The personality of places [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I do note that as a general principle most of the key locations that we pass in LOTR have their own 'personalities', for lack of any better term. There is living memory in Hollin. There is malice in Caradhras. There is resentment and grudge in the Old Forest.


Good point!

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Sep 20 2014, 8:03pm

Post #16 of 21 (14724 views)
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Makes it all the more surprising it doesn't work for Aragorn, perhaps? [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien stays well away from telling us how magic works in Middle-earth. But it seems to be a natural thing -a feature of places or of natural abilities of peoples - rather than a technology. People and place do seem to get very blended together (as Sam says of Lorien) too.

So you'd kinda expect that Amon Hen would sense that Aragorn is very very Numenorean (with a touch of Maia and elf to boot*) and would be very eager to help. And that, insofar as the magic is based on persons, Aragorn would be the right kind of person to get it to work.

Btw: an interesting though arising from this "places as personalities" idea is what of magic objects (barrow blades, Palantiri etc.). Do they have personalities too?

*If you boot elves, that is. I suspect nobody boots a dwarf!

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


squire
Half-elven


Sep 20 2014, 9:07pm

Post #17 of 21 (14733 views)
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It's possible the magic has faded - Gondor is far away [In reply to] Can't Post

I've always wondered if Aragorn got no inspiration or sight from Amon Hen because the so-called 'magic' had faded, just as Gondor's realm had. Aragorn, of course, sees himself as the restorer of the kingdom, and so he takes inspiration from the Argonath statues and also somewhat rashly ventures onto the seat of Seeing. But the pillars of the Argonath are ruined, so worn down that they look like stone peaks from a distance; and the seat gives him nothing, because it is now in the borderlands between Gondor and Mordor. I agree with the comments here that the Ring is the key to Frodo's ability to see far from the Seat, but I'd argue that the Seat's marginal quality is seen in his case too: he sees Minas Tirith in the distance, but he sees Barad-dur just as easily and of course it sees him or senses him, from a combination of the Ring's own powers of perception and the enhancement of those powers by the Seat.
Of course the above theory is not supported by the revelation that Boromir's horn was heard in Gondor; he says if it is blown within the borders of the realm it will be heard, and so by that argument Parth Galen and presumably Amon Hen are both still within Gondor proper!



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Harold.of.Whoa
Rivendell


Sep 20 2014, 10:41pm

Post #18 of 21 (14752 views)
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Absolutely [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Tolkien stays well away from telling us how magic works in Middle-earth. But it seems to be a natural thing -a feature of places or of natural abilities of peoples - rather than a technology. People and place do seem to get very blended together (as Sam says of Lorien) too.

So you'd kinda expect that Amon Hen would sense that Aragorn is very very Numenorean (with a touch of Maia and elf to boot*) and would be very eager to help. And that, insofar as the magic is based on persons, Aragorn would be the right kind of person to get it to work.


The speculative question, then, I guess, is if Amon Hen/Seat of Seeing is inclined to serve Aragorn to provide what he wants (I don't think he really knows at that moment) or if it is inclined to serve Gondor. What happens is not that Aragorn perceives nothing from the Seat. He becomes aware that Gondor's top captain and favorite son is in dire need. He hears the ruckus and then the Horn of Gondor. Granted, no 'magic' is probably required for that feat, but the issue is perhaps that the priority signal to be perceived is Boromir's situation (especially from a purely Gondorian perspective), and all other possible stimuli are overridden.

It's a possibility, anyway.


Plurmo
Rohan

Oct 5 2014, 2:58am

Post #19 of 21 (14684 views)
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Maybe it is meant to reinforce to the reader [In reply to] Can't Post

how strong is the connection between Frodo and Aragorn that the latter suffers a similar breaking in the (rightfully expected) vision as suffered by Elrond when he tried to foresee Arwen's fate after her choice to go alone (as an elf) towards mortality was made, signaling (so would put Elrond) that it had been appointed to both, that by their losses (of Arwen an Frodo) "the kingship of Men may be restored."

If that was the case it would have been Frodo's decision to go to Mordor alone that broke Aragorn's power of seeing.

Both circumstances (Arwen choosing mortality and Frodo choosing to go alone to Mordor) lead Aragorn to his appointed path with greater clarity, though the "vision" of it (whether through Elrond or through Aragorn himself) faded. So, I suppose, Aragorn's choices became independent of external agency, as befits the making a true King.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Oct 10 2014, 2:20pm

Post #20 of 21 (14726 views)
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Good point - I suppose its the flip side of... [In reply to] Can't Post

Good point - I suppose Aragorn should +not+ see Frodo and Sam leaving, or he would feel obliged to follow them.

Its the flip side of "Aragorn +should+ see (or hear actually) that he needs to rescue Pippin & Merry, as this will turn out to put him right where he needs to be...

Unlike movie-Aragorn, who is allowed to say farewell to Frodo and then be a rearguard, book-Aragorn has been struggling to accept that the hobbits should proceed alone. Or at least that is what I currently think, based on an earlier interesting discussion (see http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=771684#771684 )

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Sep 15 2015, 9:53pm

Post #21 of 21 (14264 views)
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A new theory: Aragorn might have had a vision after all [In reply to] Can't Post

...discussed here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=871771#871771

~~~~~~

Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064

 
 

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