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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Which Dwarves will survive The Battle of the Five Armies ?

News from Bree
spymaster@theonering.net

Sep 18 2014, 2:05am

Post #1 of 18 (1892 views)
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Which Dwarves will survive The Battle of the Five Armies ? Can't Post



Over the last few months there has been quite a bit of speculation over the interwebs about how many of the Dwarves will die in The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

Ringer Haladin has sent us this little tit-bit in from The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug Chronicle, Cloak & Daggers in the Cartography and Calligraphy section (Pg 32-33), image #16. The image is a letter to Bilbo on the occasion of his 111th birthday.

Spoiler warning, for those who haven't read The Hobbit book, don't read on.

.




Dear Bilbo

Greetings from under the mountain! Many years have passed since we have enjoyed the company of our honest burglar, but we send our best wishes from afar on the occasion of your Eleventy-first birthday. Dwalin, Dori, Nori, Bifur, Bofur, Bombur and Gloin at your service!

Most of us are too old to attempt the journey to The Shire, indeed Bombur is now almost immovable, and it takes six young Dwarves to lift him from couch to table.

But the roads are good (the Beornings keep open the High Pass and the Ford of Carrock, but their tolls are high), so if you ever pass this way we welcome you with open arms.

At your service as always,
Glóin

Haladin points out that "I miss there Thorin (we all know what happened to him), Balin (died in 2994 in Moria), Ori (the same as Balin), Oin (died in 2994 LOTR ROTK appendix A), Fili and Kili.

I think they will die in the Battle of Five Armies movie, because that letter was used in the third movie."ť

So, it looks like further proof that Thorin, Fili and Kili do die in BoTFA and only those three of the Dwarves, the rest go on to live their lives as listed in the ROTK Appendices and The Fellowship of The Ring.

Demosthenes here:

There are two dates of importance here: when Balin and co leave for Moria, and the date of Bilbo's farewell feast. The former occurs in TA 2989 and the latter in TA 3001.

So, if the movie follows canon, then... why would Balin, Ori, and Oin not sign?

The only reasons that spring to mind are that either they're holding a grudge against Bilbo (inconceivable), or they're all dead.

But we know that Balin at least must travel to Moria. His tomb is there in the Fellowship of the Ring movie. Because Jackson at least wants to follow his own internal movie canon (he persistently talks about how he wants all six films "of a piece"), I think this is immovable. Balin must and will survive.

The shock value of knocking off an extra two dwarves when no-one expects it would be pretty amazing.

However, I don't feel it automatically follows that the other two perish at the Battle of Five Armies. It could instead mean that the trio have already left for Moria. Occam's Razor 'n all that.

(This post was edited by Silverlode on Sep 18 2014, 8:54am)


Arannir
Valinor


Sep 18 2014, 7:29am

Post #2 of 18 (1478 views)
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Balin & Ori are dead in the movie-verse on Bilbo's 111th [In reply to] Can't Post

Since they changed the time between Bilbo's 111th and the War of the Ring and the Quest for Mount Doom in the movies, the timeline there does not work.

In the movie there is nothing that would suggest that more than a few months have passed between Bilbo leaving the Shire and Frodo setting out.

It is basically Bilbo leaving the Shire on September 22nd 3017 and Frodo leaving the Shire a year later on September 23rd 3018 (or 3001 and 3002 respectively).

In any way Balin would have set out for Moria before Bilbo's birthday party and the time Gloin wrote that letter.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



(This post was edited by Arannir on Sep 18 2014, 7:31am)


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Sep 18 2014, 7:40am

Post #3 of 18 (1454 views)
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The movies never mention years. [In reply to] Can't Post

The time elapsed between Bilbo's adventure and LotR is not mentioned, but looking at the actors I could believe it's 60 years (Hobbits age slowly). Similarly, the 17-year gap in FotR might or might not exist, there's no firm date given in the movie.

Balin and Ori are not available for the party, because they are either otherwise occupied in Moria or already dead. And the Heirs of Durin will, I believe, meet the fates prescribed for them.

I think Jackson has done a great job of keeping the calendar ambiguous, and I appreciate that!








Azaghâl
Lorien


Sep 18 2014, 8:02am

Post #4 of 18 (1437 views)
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Oin also traveled with Balin to Moria [In reply to] Can't Post

According to the books he was killed by the watcher in the water. Such a grim fate.

*Baruk khazâd! Khazâd ai-męnu!*


Arannir
Valinor


Sep 18 2014, 8:51am

Post #5 of 18 (1412 views)
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Yes. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

I think Jackson has done a great job of keeping the calendar ambiguous, and I appreciate that!



I agree very much.

I just meant that the issue described in the TORN article with Balin, Ori and Oin not signing the letter is rather clear for the movie-verse, imho.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Glorfindela
Valinor


Sep 18 2014, 11:32am

Post #6 of 18 (1393 views)
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I think [In reply to] Can't Post

I would be disappointed if the film departed from book canon in this respect. 'Invented' Dwarf deaths, specifically for the film, would detract from the impact of the deaths of Tolkien's canon characters.


Loresilme
Valinor


Sep 18 2014, 2:50pm

Post #7 of 18 (1331 views)
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In the theatrical version of FOTR it states "60 years later" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In the movie there is nothing that would suggest that more than a few months have passed between Bilbo leaving the Shire and Frodo setting out.



Not so - in the TE of FOTR, there's a subtitle "The Shire ... 60 years later" onscreen while Frodo is reading a book under the trees.


Faleel
Rohan


Sep 18 2014, 2:53pm

Post #8 of 18 (1324 views)
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That [In reply to] Can't Post

That does not count.


Arannir
Valinor


Sep 18 2014, 2:57pm

Post #9 of 18 (1314 views)
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I meant Bilbo setting out after his 111th birthday. [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Loresilme
Valinor


Sep 18 2014, 2:58pm

Post #10 of 18 (1326 views)
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Pssst ... "The Shire ... 60 years later" [In reply to] Can't Post

There is a subtitle at the beginning of the TE of FOTR, while Frodo is sitting under the trees reading :).



In Reply To
Balin and Ori are not available for the party, because they are either otherwise occupied in Moria or already dead. And the Heirs of Durin will, I believe, meet the fates prescribed for them.



I am of the same opinion, I think PJ will stick to canon on who falls in in the battle.


Loresilme
Valinor


Sep 18 2014, 3:01pm

Post #11 of 18 (1321 views)
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What? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
That does not count.


Not clear on what you mean there?


Faleel
Rohan


Sep 18 2014, 3:02pm

Post #12 of 18 (1311 views)
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Because [In reply to] Can't Post

The 60 years later Card has nothing to do with the distance between Bilbo's Birthday Party, and Frodo leaving the shire.


Loresilme
Valinor


Sep 18 2014, 3:06pm

Post #13 of 18 (1306 views)
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Either way there is no issue with the events in movie-verse [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think any of the dwarves are going to die in the battle other than those who do in the book. And that's going to be tough enough to watch anyway Unsure.


(This post was edited by Loresilme on Sep 18 2014, 3:16pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 18 2014, 3:13pm

Post #14 of 18 (1311 views)
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That is not true. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The movies never mention years. The time elapsed between Bilbo's adventure and LotR is not mentioned, but looking at the actors I could believe it's 60 years (Hobbits age slowly). Similarly, the 17-year gap in FotR might or might not exist, there's no firm date given in the movie.



We are specifically shown that sixty years have passed since Bilbo found the Ring and we see the shot of Frodo reading under the tree. Bilbo, in the extended edition of The Fellowship of the Ring, gives the date of his party as September 11, 3000 (TA).

One clue that no more than a couple of years pass before Frodo leaves the Shire is the ages of Sam, Merry and Pippin. They are all grown adults during the long-expected party; in Tolkien's legendarium they were still children or adolescents at that time (with Pippin as the youngest only being in his eleventh year).

We are told the date that Frodo wakes in Rivendell after the encounter with the Ringwraiths at the Ford of Bruinen. Gandalf tells Frodo that it is October 24. Given all of Gandalf's comings and goings and his various investigations, there is no possible way that this is only one month after Bilbo's birthday party; at least one year must have passed.

In Jackson's film timeline, Balin, Ori and Oin would be already dead in Moria.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 18 2014, 3:21pm)


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Sep 18 2014, 6:57pm

Post #15 of 18 (1250 views)
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The 17 years remain ambiguous, IMO. [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, there's apparently a card describing the 60 years (I never watch the TE!), and in any case that's fairly clear with the aging of Bilbo. But I do think that those of us who want to cherish the illusion of the 17 year gap (or at least, some gap) can say, for example, that the prankish Merry and Pippin who got into the fireworks at Bilbo's party are at least somewhat more mature by the time they join Bilbo for the quest.








Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 18 2014, 7:14pm

Post #16 of 18 (1246 views)
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Yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

Check out the trunk where Frodo has hidden the ring. The envelope is on the bottom. That could be 17 years worth of junk on top.

Or not.

Like you said, ambiguous.

******************************************
"My friend,” said Gandalf, “you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonoured dotage; and her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on.
“Think you that Wormtongue had poison only for Théoden's ears? ‘Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among their dogs?’ Have you not heard those words before? Saruman spoke them, the teacher of Wormtongue. Though I do not doubt that Wormtongue at home wrapped their meaning in terms more cunning. My lord, if your sister's love for you, and her will still bent to her duty, had not restrained her lips; you might have heard even such things as these escape them. But who knows what she spoke to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in?”

“I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
And I’ll be on my way!

“If a land don't understand you,
No matter how many regimes,
Saddle up, do not wait,
Don’t waste time at the weapontake.
Muster out of that roll call.
Ride Windfola out to your dreams!

“If the house of Eorl is nothing more,
Than a barn where brigands drink,
Their brats and dogs roll on the floor,
Then you know what the door is for,
Muster out of that roll call,
Wash Rohan into the sink!

“I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
And I’ll be on my way!"

-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 18 2014, 8:56pm

Post #17 of 18 (1208 views)
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Even I take PJ's statement in the commentary with a grain of salt. [In reply to] Can't Post

Jackson, Walsh and Boyens do discuss in the FotR-EE Director and Writers' Commentary the compression of the seventeen-year period in the book from Bilbo's party to when Frodo and Sam leave Bag End. I admit right up front that I reject Jackson's suggestion that as little as a few weeks or months pass. It is simply not credible that Gandalf could investigate the Ring, return to Hobbiton, and that Frodo could then leave and reach Rivendell all in less than a month after Bilbo's birthday party (Frodo regains consciousness in Rivendell on On the other hand, Hobbits age only a little more slowly than Men; it should be noticeable if Sam, Merry and Pippin age seventeen years while Frodo changes hardly at all.

When calculating relative ages in the films, I use a one-year gap as a default. That's what gives me an age of twenty-five years old for Aragorn during the Quest of Erebor.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 18 2014, 9:00pm)


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 18 2014, 9:23pm

Post #18 of 18 (1212 views)
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I agree with you. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I think PJ will stick to canon on who falls in in the battle.



Also, I note that in the new banner tapestry, the section representing the Bof5A features the three dwarves who we know will die in the battle - and none of the others. It's not conclusive, of course, but it fits.

Silverlode



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