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vexx801
Rivendell
Sep 18 2014, 6:26am
Post #1 of 10
(1928 views)
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Thrain: Clues, Speculations, and Paradoxes
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There has been an abundance of threads related to Thrain over the past several years, I realize, but let us add yet another to the growing corpus. With each new bit of information we receive about Thrain, it becomes easier on some levels to piece together the puzzle.
In this new Extended Edition trailer, we finally see the face of maddened Thrain. According to one of the WETA books, Art and Design, in the introduction to Dol Guldur, it notes that while exploring Dol Guldur, Gandalf is assailed by a maddened Thrain. However, "by Gandalf's skill he finds sense long enough to reveal a terrible truth; there is more afoot than the Wise have dared suspect, and an ancient evil stands poised to rise again in Middle-earth, this time with the power of a Dragon enlisted to its cause" (191).
So in the brief snippet from the trailer, we see a lucid Thrain declaring that "Thorin must not reach Erebor" or something to that effect. I was actually initially surprised to hear Thrain utter his son's name, I did not think he would be that lucid. But evidently, Gandalf's magic brings Thrain to his senses long enough to speak of Sauron and Thorin.
Should we assume that Thrain reveals Sauron's plans connected to Smaug, and that he is aiming for Erebor? And as such, does not want Thorin at Erebor? Also, what do we think about his ultimate fate? I'd assume, as it does not seem that he will have a role to play in the third film, that he likely dies in the Extended Version, but I'm not definite on that. Any input? I know in the mythology we see Thrain dying in Gandalf's arms in Dol Guldur, though that was several decades before The Hobbit.
So in a roundabout summary - what else can we guess about Thrain's role in the Extended Cut? How does this clarify some confusion over his role in AUJ? What do we think about his ultimate fate? And, as a last sort of possible discussion point - does anyone have a clearer sense of how the whole Thrain thing in the prologue will play out? Will Gandalf find him in Moria? Will he come to Gandalf before the battle (but wouldn't that go against Balin saying that the enemy got there first, implying surprise?)?
Any other thoughts to this rather ranty post? I really like all the Dol Guldur-related stuff. It's been such a mystery the past few years, and its borne out many a intriguing discussion. There's still some mystery yet to be probed, ladies and gents. Let's discuss.
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor
Sep 18 2014, 12:31pm
Post #2 of 10
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I'm so glad about this. My guess is...
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... there's much more Dol Guldur in the EE than expected. And I'm glad about that. I believe my avatar/name implies that I'm very much interested in seeing more of Dol Guldur.
Gandalf and Radagast stand before Dol Guldur. Gandalf sends Radagast to Lothlorien to inform Lady Galadriel about the return of Sauron.
Gandalf enters Dol Guldur alone. We see him walking inside the old fortress. No one else. Just him and the darkness. I guess this might be the moment where this last great shot from the DOS trailer is included since Gandalf still wears his head and everything
We see Gandalf using his spell of unconcealment a few times and we see Azog and his Orcs hiding in the dungeons. Nothing new here.
This shot was in the theatrical release (down) but without the approaching Thrain (up). Gandalf still wears his hat when Thrain attacks.
Thrain and Gandalf fight. Gandalf loses his head in this fight. According to some news Gandalf uses his magic to clear the mind of mad Thrain at least for a short moment.
Now we've got the short "Thorin must not go to Erebor" conversation between Gandalf and Thrain we've seen in the DOS EE trailer. Gandalf wears no head here.
Gandalf learns of Saurons plans and decides to confront him. Perhaps Gandalf asks Thrain to bring him to the Dark Lord? Gandalf again uses the spell.
This is when Azog and his Orcs do appear out of the concealment and attack Gandalf. Now comes the interesting part. In the theatrical version this is the moment when Gandalf loses his head. It's actually the same place where he meets Thrain. When I look at the scene when Azog knocks down Gandalf the head looks a bit CGI to me so perhaps there won't be a head falling down anymore since Gandalf lost it during his fight with Thrain? Or he put it back on. Both options are there. In the end Thrain disappeared. Who wouldn't? Gandalf and Azog have their short "We are legion", "You're too late", "He is everywhere" conversation. And Gandalf disappears.
Now we've got the moment when Gandalf runs throw Dol Guldur. At one point there might be Thrain returning and taking him to Sauron. Both are followed by Azogs minions of course.
Next is the confrontation with the Necromancer. In the theatrical release we've got a lot of CGI Gandalf in this one. Perhaps because in the original script there was Thrain standing next to Gandalf? Again besides Thrain behind standing next to Gandalf the Light vs. Dark fight remains the same.
When Sauron reveals himself to Gandalf and his staff is melting... perhaps we even see Thrain burning? This would be a call back to a scene for the prologue of FOTR where Sauron was supposed to kill Gil-Galad by touching and burning him to death. On the other hand... Thrain could escape and later help Gandalf... but I believe his death makes totally sense here.
Well... Sauron reveals himself and defeats Gandalf.
Gandalf imprisoned in a cage watches the Orc army leaving for Erebor.
EDIT: Sorry... a few of the images (including the ones with Thrain) do have some problems to be shown although not being to big.
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
(This post was edited by Lieutenant of Dol Guldur on Sep 18 2014, 12:35pm)
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Sep 18 2014, 2:54pm
Post #3 of 10
(1251 views)
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2. Too soon? for Galadriel to save him
3. Dol Guldur is destroyed by the Devices of Saruman, Elrond & G-Girl..
4. Radagast Carries Thrain's body to Erebor
by Bunny sled......?.
5. Thrain is Buried w/ Thorin, Fili&Kili
Therefore
the Entire FINAL "Line of Durin"
............. rests together.
4 Funerals in a Restored Erebor?
jus'
makezz Movie Sense.
Jus' a Theory
bom
.
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Guert
Rivendell
Sep 18 2014, 3:09pm
Post #4 of 10
(1214 views)
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This would all have to be in TBOFA EE
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I suppose they will close Thrain's story in DOS EE. So if he dies, it will be in this movie.
Or maybe they will carry on this EE only storyline through all two movies... Hard to tell
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DarkJackal
Rohan
Sep 18 2014, 11:09pm
Post #5 of 10
(1032 views)
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No answers, just another question or two to add
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I also wonder will the dwarven Ring of Power (which Gandalf made a point to mention was last seen with Thrain) have any prominence. Will procuring the dwarven Ring of Power have added to Sauron's power by DOS? And is there something significant about Thrain's left eye appearing functional in the teaser trailer, but scarred over completely in the prologue of AUJ, or is this something we aren't supposed to notice or care about (because I care!!!)?
The Hobbit Photo Gallery
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Faleel
Rohan
Sep 18 2014, 11:15pm
Post #6 of 10
(1011 views)
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I actually never noticed the messed up eye in the Prologue! WOW!
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Sep 19 2014, 10:17am
Post #7 of 10
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I thought the idea of a lost Thrain who was revealed in Dol Gulder as a surprise to the audience in the existing time line was a brilliant idea.
To reveal him in DOS as a three film spilt also made sense. He helps build up tension toward the Sauron reveal by revealing the ring has been taken from him giving Gandalf the final confirmations this is indeed the LOTR in D G. I also like the added jeopardy of Thrain warning Gandalf that Thorin should not enter Erebor just as we the audience see him about to do so. The warning maybe two fold the Dragon is still there but I think it more likely the context is the fear of the greed of the treasures of Erebor which corrupted Thrains father.
All this was loaded in the AUJ EE the only bit of the jigsaw remaining is the circumstances in which the map and the key are handed over and I expect that to be explained in the flash back within the flash back. Knowing Sir Ian and having seen Mr Sher act I have a feeling this will be dealt with well so well that we will be wondering why on earth it was excluded from the TE.
In away i know the answer to that the difficulty with DOS is it has two endings. The original ending at the barrels and the cliff hanger following the Dwarves V Smaug. I happen to enjoy the barrels but it then puts the emphasise on PJ besting that for the new ending. Rather like AUJ one feels because neither were planned both show him trying to hard. For me the first one works because its an emotional ending the second one doesn't because the action post Bilbo is gratuitous rather than adding to the story telling.
However the damage of spending so much time on the three gambit attempt to destroy Smaug is matters like Thrains arc were cut.
My great hope is that he will not get ending anxiety for TBOFA and the action will be firmly rooted in story telling.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Shagrat
Gondor
Sep 19 2014, 11:20am
Post #8 of 10
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I would also add that Thrain will probably make clearer the threat of Sauron, and in particular his interest in Smaug. I expect they'll also make explicit where his army is marching to (we presume Erebor, but it still needs to be clarified incase Azog commandeers it), and, if it is heading straight to Erebor, why.
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Sep 19 2014, 1:32pm
Post #9 of 10
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What if Thrain is not Thrain and is the Necromancer trying to convince Gandalf not to reach Erebor?
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Then when Gandalf is not gonna quit on the quest he transforms into the Black FIgure and the fight starts.
Luckily we will get rid of that CGI Gandalf running around Dol Guldur
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
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sycorax82
Rohan
Sep 19 2014, 10:13pm
Post #10 of 10
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CGI Gandalf will still be there for most of the shots we've already seen, I would guess
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I think the majority of what we've seen in the TE will still be there, just with added Thrain (who Azog probably kills as he confronts Gandalf).
Something to consider is...maybe Thrain and his death were deemed a little too extreme for the TE? It's about time a good guy actually died! It's as though Peter wants to shy away from anything too gruesome...
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1. Thrain Dies..
[