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squire
Half-elven


Sep 17 2014, 11:48am

Post #51 of 54 (713 views)
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Democracy as such is out of place, but not the people's voice [In reply to] Can't Post

In both Rohan and Gondor we see scenes where the ruling classes take account of the people's wishes when deciding on who shall rule. I'm thinking of Eowyn taking over when Theoden and Eomer ride off to war, and Faramir asking the people of Minas Tirith if Aragorn should be named King.

These examples are different from democracy, in that the people's wishes are considered, not counted. I think this is in keeping with Tolkien's view of monarchy and aristocracy as the best form of government so long as both ruler and ruled observe their proper responsibilities to each other.

As far as hobbit democracy goes, it does differ in that it draws on European traditions regarding an actual vote for a local urban leader. As in Laketown in the parallel world of The Hobbit, the only elections in the Shire are municipal. In the various country districts and Shirewide the leaders are decided by inheritance and family prestige.

But it's notable that even here, in his accounts of the mayoralty of Michel Delving (not Hobbiton), Tolkien implies that each election is more or less unanimous and always chooses the "right" person (Frodo, Will Whitfoot, Sam). To Tolkien, or at least in Tolkien's fictional universe, leadership is a moral position not a political one.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Sep 17 2014, 2:09pm

Post #52 of 54 (706 views)
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A couple of things about anachronisms in Tolkien's work. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the fact that (according to the books) the world is ancient, but the translation is modern, allows readers to disregard the problem - if they want to read the books as (pretend) real history, they have the option of putting anything that seems out of place down to problems of translation. So, a potato is something like a potato - a similar plant that we no longer have. Pipeweed could be actual tobacco - perhaps it grew here in the past and has since become extinct and forgotten until travelers explored South America and rediscovered it. I usually take it that the translator is using early to mid twentieth century frames of reference to make the text flow - I seem to remember that Tolkien explains somewhere that he has modernised the Shire - the names and language in the books is not what you would actually hear if you were there, just as, if going back to biblical times, you wouldn't hear the names Jesus, Matthew, John etc.


The other thing is that some things were apparently uninvented in Britain (Europe) after the Romans left, and weren't reinvented until relatively recently - I seem to remember something about metal shod cartwheels/moveable axles?? - not to mention plumbing and underfloor heating. It's quite possible that mechanical timepieces - as suggested here, probably invented by the dwarves or somesuch - were seen as toys or curiosities by most people, with the exception of the fussy and socially conservative hobbits who would consider it the height of impoliteness to turn up late for tea. The little joke between Frodo and Gandalf in the FOTR film hints at this, with Gandalf mocking the hobbits' obsession with timekeeping. My personal theory is that Thorin's folk, being newly exiled to the Blue Mountains, found in the nearby Shire a ready market for some of their skills - the hobbits' love of giving presents, their liking for home comforts - well made spoons for example, would mean that the dwarves could produce a lot of things specifically designed for hobbit culture - and in return would get all the fresh food they needed. The proximity of the Shire to Thorin's people - the most advanced craftspeople and engineers in ME at that time, might have had a lot to do with the Shire seeming in some ways much more modern and advanced - at least in the small details of life - than the rest of that world.



"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Sep 17 2014, 2:57pm

Post #53 of 54 (801 views)
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Fro-do Came Home [In reply to] Can't Post

Fro-do came home

There was panic in the Shire, and howls in Brandy Hall,
There was crying in the Smials and shrieking in the brawls

When Fro-do came home.

(I think I feel a musical coming on.Shocked)



Beleg Strongbow Cuthalion
Bree


Apr 8 2015, 8:18pm

Post #54 of 54 (567 views)
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It really wouldn't surprise me. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” ― Gandalf the Grey~


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