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Do female stars HAVE to sell themselves?
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Sep 16 2014, 2:32pm

Post #1 of 41 (876 views)
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Do female stars HAVE to sell themselves? Can't Post

I may get flamed for this, and it may even get taken down, but I think it's a worthy question. I just read an article about the "Big Bang" costar who use to be Blossom (couldn't spell her name if I tried) complaining about Ariana Grande's picture on a billboard in lingerie. First, I agree with her that I don't know who Ariana Grande is, nor do I much care. But it does irritate me, as a woman, that so many female stars, be they singers or actors, feel the need to promote themselves in the skimpiest way possible. I've had this ongoing discussion with my son-in-law over Miley Cyrus and her, well, IMO slutty behavior. "But it works!" He declares, and yes it does, but in a good way or a bad way? I'm no fan of Taylor Swift either, but it's easier for me to believe she has talent BECAUSE so far she's not felt the need to undress onscreen. Nor has Jennifer Lawrence, if you skip the naked selfies that got leaked. This is nothing new, Marylin did it (and I don't even have to tell the young people her last name, they already know) 50 - 60 years ago, and it probably goes back farther than that. Pretty soon Miley will have to put her clothes back on and demonstrate whether or not she can actually SING - and apparently she'd better hurry up and do so before Ariana Grande beats her to it.

On the other hand, I HAVE noticed that male actors are now being similarly exploited. Hugh Jackman isn't the only one that has to eat nothing but chicken breast and lift weights for hours, now ALL the guys have to be buff as well. From Chris Hemsworth to whoever that guy in "50 Shades of Gray" is, and of course my favorite new show "Outlander" features a frequently shirtless Sam Heughton. Did he always look like that, or is that now the new "male norm," the way posing in underwear (or less) is for women? Yes I admit, I like looking at these men, but if I'm going to complain about the (ongoing) objectification of women then I've got to be fair and stand up for the men as well. Is this ever going to end? Is it getting better or worse? Or is this "no big deal" and prudish people like me just need to get over it? I would be interested in your opinions, thanks.

Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!


Dame Ioreth
Tol Eressea


Sep 16 2014, 3:35pm

Post #2 of 41 (719 views)
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I saw a headline on IMDB [In reply to] Can't Post

that went something like "Oh no! Has Chris Pratt already lost his buff Guardians body?" and it made me think about the same thing. I'm not sure the stars themselves think they have to do these things or their handlers tell them they do to stay on top. Some stars seem to go for it more than others. I admit to looking and liking (beautiful bodies are art to me and I'm not talking the smutty kind or the silliness that goes on here... although Thorin's hair... Blush never mind). But I do think the Hollywood machine that drives so much of Western entertainment of a certain caliber has gone too far with their plastic Barbie and Ken body image ideals.

One thing I did notice lately though is that it seems to be more on American TV as compared to British or even some Canadian TV that the buff guy and the hot girl get to have the relationship while "average" or even (Gasp!) older characters usually don't . And I'm not even talking about stories about "old people" like Last Tango in Halifax (although that does fit my example but not for the main characters). More often in British TV, the average-looking person can get the romantic storyline too. Think Harry Pearce and Ruth Evershed in Spook (MI-5). Sure hottie Lucas North got his romantic time too but Harry had a wonderful romance. He's average, older and definitely not "buff". Last Tango in Halifax has story lines about the middle generations and their love interests and none of them are what Hollywood would define as "beautiful people". All the way back to Oliver's Travels, Martin Shaw's Adam Dalgliesh in Murder Room... you don't have to be beautiful by Hollywood standards to get the guy or the girl. I think it's really refreshing!



Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings






(This post was edited by Dame Ioreth on Sep 16 2014, 3:47pm)


Magpie
Immortal


Sep 16 2014, 3:52pm

Post #3 of 41 (735 views)
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wow... do I have little to contribute to this [In reply to] Can't Post

not because it doesn't matter (I think it does... deeply)

and not because I don't have opinions (I do... strongly)

but because it's complicated and ripe for discussions that quickly go south. (and I can have a short fuse on some issue so I must limit myself on how engaged I become)

I will say, I'm a proud feminist (and I'll define that word for myself and refuse to let others decide what I mean and then criticize the position they've assigned to it) and I've been following quite a few discussions and current events that are concerning and disturbing me in terms of gender relations.

I can't speak eloquently on any of the situation I've been following but to toss them into an already 'complicated' discussion they are:

.... some recent events in the gaming world where women game developers were vilified so strongly by male gamers they were getting death threats

...the experiences of women in fan-cons (like Comic-con)

...the sexualization of women in comics and games

...the hacking of women's cloud accounts to steal personal property (nude photos) and then display it to the world. (I'm one would qualify this as a form of sexual 'assault'... like rape, this isn't about sex as much as it about power over women)

If anyone wants more info on any of these, I can try to track down some of what I've been reading in the last month or so.

What initially concerns me is how women are represented and treated in each of these instances.

What secondarily concerns me is the extreme misogyny that erupts in the discussion of each of these issues.

What heartens me is the good number of men who stand up and call their misogynist 'peers' on their behavior and comments and make it evident that they care deeply about the treatment of women in media, in the geek world, and in life in general.

A bit off topic from what you initially set up but, in my brain, it's all one big 'situation' and depending on the specific part of the 'situation' we are talking about... yes, it could easily be a male issue as it can be a female issue.


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Annael
Immortal


Sep 16 2014, 4:27pm

Post #4 of 41 (707 views)
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that's one reason why I like British TV shows [In reply to] Can't Post

the people aren't all unreasonably gorgeous, they're . . . real people.

Although I do detect a slight trend in American TV towards actors who don't look perfect. The Big Bang Theory, Community, and Parks & Recreation come to mind - they've all got cast members who are outside the Hollywood norm. Chris Pratt was overweight until "Guardians" and his wife has gone on record as saying she misses his "comfortable" body (and feels sorry for how hungry he has to be to maintain the new one). And then there's the popularity of Melissa McCarthy.

On the other hand I'm kinda tickled to see that the "female gaze" is getting eye candy just as the "male gaze" has for so long . . . I like to swim in the shallow end of the pool sometimes myself. I do like looking at pretty things, be they people or sunsets or gardens. So I don't mind a mix of gods/goddesses and ordinary people in my movies.

But as for "Having" to sell oneself by taking off one's clothes, I suggest that it only works on a certain percentage of the population . . . and it's only going to work for a very short span of years, and then what happens? Miley could be building her fan base from the very people who will reject her at the first sign of flab or wrinkles. Short-sighted. Now I never pass up a chance to gaze at Chris Hemsworth with no shirt on, but I'm glad to see him branching out into more dramatic roles like "Rush" - not relying on the deltoids.

To be sane we must recognize our beliefs as fictions.

- James Hillman, Healing Fiction

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Sep 16 2014, 4:31pm

Post #5 of 41 (712 views)
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Female game developers - really??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well I would be interested in hearing about that. I'd already mentioned the leaked nude selfies, and it reminds me of an article I read about on campus assaults, and why Universities don't bring up the alcohol that is frequently involved. The Universities don't want to blame the victim. I get that, it's so easy to say "well don't drink and you won't have anything to worry about" or "don't take nude selfies, etc." While I agree that young girls (like Miley, believe it or not) should use better judgment, the lack of good judgment doesn't give ANYONE the right to take advantage. It's just as wrong to break into someone's account as it is to assault them while they're passed out. I am particularly concerned about campus assault because my 18-year-old is now on a campus in the dorms, PLUS she's majoring in a very male-dominated field, chemical engineering.

Your post is related to the original subject, which I'd call the objectification of people. Another article I read mentioned young actresses that behave/dress in a certain way to prove their "all grown up", and wondered if there wasn't a better way to do so. I would think that finding some other way to prove you're "all grown up" would actually be novel, since so many young stars have already done the naked thing - Madonna did it back in the 1980's, it's not new or original. But I have to wonder if it's now required? And if so, does that contribute to the harrassment of female game developers?

Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!


Dame Ioreth
Tol Eressea


Sep 16 2014, 4:51pm

Post #6 of 41 (695 views)
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Female comic book artists too. [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a tough field to break into and a tough field to work in as a female. It's also hard for female writers in the science fiction genre. This past summer, Lightspeed Magazine (SF and Fantasy) published a special issue - Women Destroy Science Fiction just to point out to the general public that they are out there.

And while I don't define myself as anything (I've always hated labeling myself), I do cheer when a girl does something that she's been told she can't do simply because she *is* a girl. (Then again, I cheer when I guy does the same thing... yeah, hate labels.)

I love how news outlets talk about political candidates differently. The men are described in terms of their accomplishments, views etc. The women have that included along with a description of what they are wearing and how they've changed their hair.



Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings






Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Sep 16 2014, 4:57pm

Post #7 of 41 (680 views)
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Well ranted, Magpie, et al. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Magpie
Immortal


Sep 16 2014, 5:02pm

Post #8 of 41 (699 views)
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the game developers issue [In reply to] Can't Post

reading about these recent events (which I got via io9.com) was like a non-sports follower reading about sports. All the articles I found assumed a lot of previous knowledge on the part of the reader so it was frustrating.

I just did a quick try of tracking down the article I saw at io9 and that didn't work so I did a google search.

At least, for me, this google search is getting up articles pertinent to the situation I was reading about.

One of the women being harrassed is: Anita Sarkeesian
http://www.feministfrequency.com/...ion-tropes-vs-women/

and here's a guy blogging about her that gives a (imo) enlightened response and relates how that pro-feminist response of his made him the target of trolls:
http://www.patheos.com/...omen-in-video-games/

Doing a google news search for her name will get you a lot to read

One of the points Sarkeesian made about women in video games reminded me of thoughts I've had about movies and tv shows that I think have been touched on here in discussion of various tv shows: Developers regularly utilize the brutalization of women’s bodies, and especially the bodies of female prostitutes, as an indicator of just how harsh, cruel and unforgiving their game worlds are.

I have defended Game of Thrones as a valid tv show and would continue to defend it. But I do think there is a current trend... or trope, if you will... to try to infuse a 'real life grittiness' into tv shows by showing the 'brutalization of women.' I'm not looking for Disney's version of the world. But showing how brutally hard women had it historically (or in fantasy worlds that build on a 'historical' flavored world) has become the 'easy' way to seemingly validate the gritty reality of the show. At some point, I have to feel it becomes salacious in nature. Surely there are other ways to depict gritty reality than using women like this.

If draping a woman's body over a car to sell it is 'objectifying' women then continually and constantly putting women in perilous or brutal positions (esp. where that position is infused with sexual abuse or assault as a component) is also a form of 'objectification'. Especially when it's employed because it's easy. It's almost like using a black hat on the villain.


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Magpie
Immortal


Sep 16 2014, 5:19pm

Post #9 of 41 (687 views)
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a few more articles: [In reply to] Can't Post

The Great Geek Sexism Debate
intro paragraph:
Over the past few months, three of the most influential conventions in geekdom — Readercon (for science fiction writers), The Amazing Meeting (for skeptics), and DefCon (for hackers) — have been at the center of very public discussions about sexism and sexual harassment in their communities. After all three conventions in 2012, women spoke out publicly about episodes of sexual harassment and humiliation they experienced at the cons. The fallout was ugly — but also awesome. Here's what happened, and what's still happening, as formerly male-dominated geek spaces make way for women.


Slut Shaming and Concern Trolling in Geek Culture
intro paragraph:
Last month, science geek and costumer Emily Finke attended a sci fi convention dressed in a screen-accurate uniform from Star Trek: TOS, where she was met with microaggression, mock-concern and men intent on outing her as a Fake Geek Girl. So she decided to write something, "because I haven't caused enough flame wars on the internet this week."


500 People Down With Scalzi's Anti-Harrassment Con Policy So Far
intro paragraphs:
As of his latest update, about 500 people have co-signed John Scalzi's anti-harassment policy, meaning they either support it or are willing to implement it at conventions. So far ALA Annual, Context Convention, Geek Girl Con and Readercon have tweeted that they are on board as well, which means cons may soon be safer and more fun for all!

For those of you who missed it, Scalzi provided a space for his friend Elise Matthesen to share her experience with harassment at cons with the world. Shortly after, the award-winning Sci-fi author took a bold step and announced that he would not be appearing as a guest at any conventions that did not have a clear harassment policy in place.


All of these articles have lots of links to other articles (on their site and off).

As always... io9.com is heavy on reader participation so it's worth reading comments.


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
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Lily Fairbairn
Half-elven


Sep 16 2014, 5:29pm

Post #10 of 41 (689 views)
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A quick note from the sidelines... [In reply to] Can't Post

I know some of the people mentioned in the above thread. Believe me, the entire anti-female tone of the science fiction or geek or whatever you want to call it world is same-old been-there done-that to me. Thirty years ago (yes, I'm dating myself) a female sf author was seen as the deviation from the norm, and treated as such.

That newer male writers such as Scalzi are willing to step up and address the issues shows that times are changing for the better---if much, much too slowly.

But yes, this is getting away from the original question, so I'll take my leave....

Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?
Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing?
Where is the hand on the harpstring, and the red fire glowing?
Where is the spring and the harvest and the tall corn growing?
They have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow;
The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow....


Tintallë
Gondor


Sep 16 2014, 5:44pm

Post #11 of 41 (688 views)
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Your observation [In reply to] Can't Post

about the gender-based treatment of political candidates is spot-on and brings this incident to mind:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...-style_n_791358.html


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Sep 16 2014, 6:38pm

Post #12 of 41 (692 views)
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All actors have to "sell" themselves... [In reply to] Can't Post

...in order to have a continuing career. Each gets to determine exactly what to sell: body, voice, acting talent, comedic talent, etc. The entertainment industry knows that being "edgy" (shorthand for "cutting edge" or shocking) sells well, and showing off a good body works for both men and women.

Sexism rears its ugly head when the industry is reluctant to promote women who want to focus only on their talents other than their bodies. Consider Jennifer Hudson, who rocketed to fame as the fat girl with the fabulous voice in Dreamgirls, for which she won many awards. Since then she's lost 80 lbs. She's probably a lot healthier, but did she do it for that reason, or because it was the only way she could continue her career?








Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 16 2014, 6:50pm

Post #13 of 41 (690 views)
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Actually, they're killing themselves. [In reply to] Can't Post

Going from child actress to adult acting is also an odd experience. It's as if you have to do grown-up, more sexual parts to prove yourself.
-Jennifer Connelly


In the cases of Miley Cyrus and Ariana Grande, they're killing off and burying their sweet little innocent Nickelodeon personas of (respectively) Hanna Montana and Cat Valentine in order to move to a more "mature" aiudience.

That's been Hollywood "wisdom" for transitioning from child stars to adult stars since as far back as Shirley Temple. Ms. Temple refused mogul David O. Selnik's advice to develop a more "mature" persona and so faded from films. On the other hand, child actress Elizabeth Taylyor carefully graduated from roles as an innocent ingenue to sexy homewrecker to sultry prostitute, all while more and more scandalous personal behavior was being exposed in the gossip magazines, which culminated in her becoming a Hollywood megastar. Coincidence? I think not!

Speaking of male stars, consider what a jerk Justin Beiber has become. I mean, he was a nice teen idol singing sweet songs to teenage girls, but now all those scandalous headlines have killed off that persona and revealed him as being a much darker and edgier guy! Of course his latest album is full of darker and edgier R&B songs for a much more darker and edgier (i.e., "mature") audience. Coincidence? Three guesses and the first two are free!

But male or female, it's amazing how easy it is to get caught doing risque and edgy things in today's media market. Paparazzi always seem to be waiting at exactly the right place and at precisely the right time in order to take an amazingly well-lit and remarkably well-compositioned series of photographs of drunk, amorous, and/or partially clad celebrities leaving a Hollywood nightclub! It's like the club was in on it, the photographers were tipped off, and the whole thing was carefully staged!! Coincidence? Let's just say there is *very* good money in being a publicity *coordinator*!

Does it work? Well, we *are* talking about Miley Cyrus and Ariana Grande, while most of us have absolutely no idea who Mayim Bialik is. (Hint: PhD in Neuroscience, spokesperson for the Holistic Moms Network, and founding member of the Shamayim V'Aretz Institute.)

******************************************
Suddenly the king cried to Snowmane and the horse sprang away. Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of green, but he outpaced it. After him thundered the knights of his house, but he was ever before them. Éomer rode there, the white horsetail on his helm floating in his speed, and the front of the first éored roared like a breaker foaming to the shore, but Théoden could not be overtaken. Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Oromë the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and the darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City:

There's a Great Darkness over the Pelennor,
There's a Great Darkness over the Pelennor!
Our spears’ nowhere as high as an Oliphaunt’s eye,
And the field’s full of orcs, wargs and huge Olog-hai!

Oh what a Rohirrim morning,
Oh what a Rohirrim day!
We've got a wonderful feeling,
We shall kill thousands today!

Oh, we’ll kill us some Easterling Variags,
And know we’re not given to idle brags,
We’ll battle and vanquish the Black Serpent King,
And even an undying dwimmerlaik thing!

Oh what a Rohirrim morning,
Oh what a Rohirrim day!
We've got a wonderful feeling,
We shall kill thousands today!

-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Sep 16 2014, 7:10pm

Post #14 of 41 (671 views)
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Jennifer Hudson [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm really glad that she lost weight, yes she's healthier but you're right, did she do it to try to keep up with Beyonce'? Maybe, maybe not, or maybe BOTH! I think that she'd established herself as a singer before the weight loss, and let's face it, Aretha Franklin was always pretty heavy, so I think Jennifer could have kept making songs without the weight loss. But movies, well, that's another story. I remember when I heard Queen Latifah was trying to lose weight, and being a little disappointed. Well maybe she needed to for her health, BUT I always thought she was very pretty, and I'm always happy to hear about actresses who DON'T starve themselves, like Scarlett Johanson & Jennifer Lawrence (who would ever think SHE was fat? But people advised her to lose weight - why?). Fortunately Queen Latifah didn't lose very much weight, maybe 20 lbs is all.

Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Sep 16 2014, 7:14pm

Post #15 of 41 (673 views)
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I'm thinking of poor Judy Garland [In reply to] Can't Post

who was drugged to lose weight (think how she looked in the Wizard of Oz. The PTB thought that was too fat. They also told her she was ugly, and hunchbacked.)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Sep 16 2014, 7:16pm

Post #16 of 41 (676 views)
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The Disney phenom [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought about that, that Miley (and before her Brittany Spears, Lindsay Lohan, etc.) may be trying to get away from their "Disney" image, and that's understandable, but SURELY it can be done another way! Selena Gomez did star in a pretty racy movie, BUT off-screen she still seems to be acting like a sensible young lady. Same with Emma Watson, looking attractive and grown-up on magazine covers but also attending college and not being too crazy. Yes, the sexualization of older child stars has been going on for a long time (no idea Jennifer Connelly was one), and THAT'S my point! It's NOT new, and I truly believe it's not necessary, either.

And cudos to Mayim Bialik, I'd heard she went to college but PhD, wowee! No, she doesn't get the attention that Miley and Ariana gets, but I get the feeling she's okay about that!

Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!


Dame Ioreth
Tol Eressea


Sep 16 2014, 7:32pm

Post #17 of 41 (657 views)
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Queen Latifa was losing weight for health reasons. [In reply to] Can't Post

She was trying to cut her risk of diabetes. She talked about it when she signed on to become a Jenny Craig spokeswoman.



Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings






Dame Ioreth
Tol Eressea


Sep 16 2014, 7:40pm

Post #18 of 41 (675 views)
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Scarlett Johansen had a great way of dealing with being asked about her body [In reply to] Can't Post

when she was on the press tours for Avengers. They would ask *only * her how she fit into the cat suit she wears for part of the movie. What kind of diet etc. She hit it head on. Gotta love it.



Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings






(This post was edited by Dame Ioreth on Sep 16 2014, 7:41pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 16 2014, 7:57pm

Post #19 of 41 (676 views)
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Also.... [In reply to] Can't Post

...she said she was drugged with amphetamines so she could keep up with the day's frantic shooting schedule, and then given barbiturates to bring her down so she could get to sleep at night. Rinse, repeat.

******************************************
Suddenly the king cried to Snowmane and the horse sprang away. Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of green, but he outpaced it. After him thundered the knights of his house, but he was ever before them. Éomer rode there, the white horsetail on his helm floating in his speed, and the front of the first éored roared like a breaker foaming to the shore, but Théoden could not be overtaken. Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Oromë the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and the darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City:

There's a Great Darkness over the Pelennor,
There's a Great Darkness over the Pelennor!
Our spears’ nowhere as high as an Oliphaunt’s eye,
And the field’s full of orcs, wargs and huge Olog-hai!

Oh what a Rohirrim morning,
Oh what a Rohirrim day!
We've got a wonderful feeling,
We shall kill thousands today!

Oh, we’ll kill us some Easterling Variags,
And know we’re not given to idle brags,
We’ll battle and vanquish the Black Serpent King,
And even an undying dwimmerlaik thing!

Oh what a Rohirrim morning,
Oh what a Rohirrim day!
We've got a wonderful feeling,
We shall kill thousands today!

-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings


Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Sep 16 2014, 9:02pm

Post #20 of 41 (656 views)
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I think I can answer one of your last questions... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
and of course my favorite new show "Outlander" features a frequently shirtless Sam Heughton. Did he always look like that, or is that now the new "male norm,"

Sam Heughan was already a finely-tuned lean-muscled machine who competes in triathlons, although he did gain some weight for this project. He's an athlete and an actor, so I'd say it's probably not just about appearance for him. =)


**********************************

NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011


Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 16 2014, 9:19pm

Post #21 of 41 (647 views)
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Yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

A couple of non-Disney child phenoms who went through highly sexualized transitions are Drew Barrymore and Jodie Foster.

Selena Gomez is a strong Christian, so that strengthens her personal life. Ironically critics and many fans declared themselves “confused” over the difference between her racy persona in her latest musical album and the sensible young lady she actually seems. It’s like modern audiences can’t grasp the difference between performance and reality. As for the racy movie, I assume you’re talking about Spring Breakers (2012) which the producers and some critics say is a feminist film, but frankly I see quite the opposite. (But I’m an old country boy, so what do I know?)

As you said, Emma Watson seems to be making a sexpot-avoiding transition quite well, though she has a great advantage over most young actresses by being quite independently wealthy because of Potter-cash. It’s a bit reminiscent of Helen Hunt’s own transition from child star. Which might be a bit troubling since Ms. Hunt’s career seems to have been hampered by Hollywood’s vague uncertainty over who/what she was. (“Yeah, she’s the best actress for the part, but…”) It’s like Hollywood expected some sort of big dramatic “Look everyone! This is the new me!!” debutante moment that never came.

******************************************
Suddenly the king cried to Snowmane and the horse sprang away. Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of green, but he outpaced it. After him thundered the knights of his house, but he was ever before them. Éomer rode there, the white horsetail on his helm floating in his speed, and the front of the first éored roared like a breaker foaming to the shore, but Théoden could not be overtaken. Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Oromë the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and the darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City:

There's a Great Darkness over the Pelennor,
There's a Great Darkness over the Pelennor!
Our spears’ nowhere as high as an Oliphaunt’s eye,
And the field’s full of orcs, wargs and huge Olog-hai!

Oh what a Rohirrim morning,
Oh what a Rohirrim day!
We've got a wonderful feeling,
We shall kill thousands today!

Oh, we’ll kill us some Easterling Variags,
And know we’re not given to idle brags,
We’ll battle and vanquish the Black Serpent King,
And even an undying dwimmerlaik thing!

Oh what a Rohirrim morning,
Oh what a Rohirrim day!
We've got a wonderful feeling,
We shall kill thousands today!

-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings


Meneldor
Valinor


Sep 16 2014, 9:21pm

Post #22 of 41 (671 views)
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What really disgusts me [In reply to] Can't Post

is when Hollywood tries to have it both ways. Anyone see the movie Sucker Punch? (Don't; it's a terrible movie.) It starred half a dozen "hot" girls running around in male fantasy wish fulfillment costumes doing stupid things and acting "sexy", and the movie makers said it was a film about female empowerment. Oh, please! If you're going to make a movie about eye candy, at least have the guts to admit it. Do they think their viewers are so stupid we don't see what they're doing? It's an insult to all of us.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 16 2014, 9:31pm

Post #23 of 41 (658 views)
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Yeah [In reply to] Can't Post

It's like most roles for actresses in Hollywood are either prostitutes or strippers, though if producers find an especially talented actress they'll cast her in a really complex role like a prostitute who's also a stripper.

BTW, saw Sucker Punch. Didn't like it. Strangely, Wifey loves it.

******************************************
Suddenly the king cried to Snowmane and the horse sprang away. Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of green, but he outpaced it. After him thundered the knights of his house, but he was ever before them. Éomer rode there, the white horsetail on his helm floating in his speed, and the front of the first éored roared like a breaker foaming to the shore, but Théoden could not be overtaken. Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Oromë the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and the darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City:

There's a Great Darkness over the Pelennor,
There's a Great Darkness over the Pelennor!
Our spears’ nowhere as high as an Oliphaunt’s eye,
And the field’s full of orcs, wargs and huge Olog-hai!

Oh what a Rohirrim morning,
Oh what a Rohirrim day!
We've got a wonderful feeling,
We shall kill thousands today!

Oh, we’ll kill us some Easterling Variags,
And know we’re not given to idle brags,
We’ll battle and vanquish the Black Serpent King,
And even an undying dwimmerlaik thing!

Oh what a Rohirrim morning,
Oh what a Rohirrim day!
We've got a wonderful feeling,
We shall kill thousands today!

-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings


(This post was edited by Darkstone on Sep 16 2014, 9:33pm)


Magpie
Immortal


Sep 16 2014, 9:42pm

Post #24 of 41 (645 views)
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I have to admit... [In reply to] Can't Post

I liked Sucker Punch, too.

I mean.. I have to turn off any supersonic feminist code to enjoy pretty much anything in current culture. I can do that. I can look at something and have an opinion about how well women fare in it... but still overlook it and enjoy the show.

Did they sexualize the women in Sucker Punch, sure. Was it a good movie if one 'forgives' it for that (and not everyone will chose to forgive it). I'm of the minority that thought it was.

In reading over my review of it: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=392990#392990

I'm reminded that some thought or perhaps Zach Snyder was going for a 'critique on geek culture's sexism and objectification of women' (not sure where I got that... I didn't attribute it and I won't go searching for the source now)


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Sep 16 2014, 9:49pm

Post #25 of 41 (652 views)
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Funny you should mention Sucker Punch [In reply to] Can't Post

Well I suppose it might have been "empowering," if the lead character hadn't been lobotomized. I found the message so confusing: "You already have everything you need, now FIGHT! Oh, wait, you can't, 'cause you've been lobotomized." Then again, maybe it was making a statement about what happens to women who DO fight back - now that's really depressing.Unsure

Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!

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