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boldog
Rohan
Sep 16 2014, 9:14am
Post #1 of 28
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Could Bard kill Smaug "Turin" style?
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After seeing the new scroll for tbot5a, and observing the picture of Smaug in laketown, this just dawned upon me. What if Bard kills Smaug not by shooting the black arrow from a windlance or Bow, but by jousting it through his stomach, by hand? Basically similar to how Turin did it to Glaurung.
Im pretty certain that the windlance is going to be destroyed to add more drama to the whole laketown attack. And by looking at the size of the black arrow next to Bard, it is clearly going to be impossible for him to shoot it by bow. There is NO WAY he can fire that heavy arrow, so precisley and with so much force, while aiming at a small target!
As much as id rather he kills smaug like the book, I think this stabbing is what may happen. I can see a scene of Smaug and Bard facing off, and Smaug destroying the city around Bard. Bard finds himself trapped as Smaug destroys the structure where he is standing on. Bard falls in the water presumably dead. Then after a while, he jumps out with the black arrow, and shoves it right in Smaugs weak spot, thus killing him.
If Bard kills him this way, it will also probably give him a lot more credit and praise as the "dragon slayer" due to the fact that he literally killed the dragon with his own hands, rather then shooting him from a distance.
Thoughts? I think this is very likely
I believe that Azog and Bolg are possibly the only two orcs who may be an exception to the typical evil nature of an orc. Azog had brought up his son, well enough that he actually acknowledges him as his own son. That is a first for any orc. And Bolg sets out to march upon Erebor in vengeance of his fathers death. How many orcs will Try and avenge another dead orc? Most will just forget about the dead one. This gives me hope that Orcs, have some traits of good in them, even if it is small aspects.
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Arannir
Valinor
Sep 16 2014, 9:36am
Post #2 of 28
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... working on screen without looking absolutely ridiculous.
Smaug would have to be very close to the ground with his belly/chest in order for his weak spot to be reachable for Bard... close to the ground or some structure or whatever... standing still for a longer time. How conveniant.
I could see the ballista getting destroyed and Bard killing Smaug - in the end - with a smaller arrow (Smaug's "armour" is already broken there, so it wouldn't be totally implausible).
However, something tells me that the whole ballista idea came from the feeling of the filmmakers that a normal arrow would look impossible to hurt Smaug enough to kill him... so I actually think it might be the ballista shot that kills him in the end.
The scroll picture could just be inspired from Bard running through burning Lake-town after he got out of the prison and getting the black arrow back.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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xxxyyy
Rohan
Sep 16 2014, 1:11pm
Post #3 of 28
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Killing Smaug from a long distance would seem, on the screen, as a lucky shot, and a cheap way to conclude Smaug's story.
I really hope theyìve chosen your way.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Sep 16 2014, 1:38pm
Post #4 of 28
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I wonder if the cart is involved
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I know alot of people hate that scene in the trailer where Bard is doing the crazy cart thing, but what if that's a way to launch the arrow? I agree that the ballista/windlance will probably get wiped out (or at least shoud, being its elevation), and the black arrow is WAAAYYYYY too big to fire from Bard's normal bow. Having typed this, I'm not sure exactly HOW the cart would help launch the arrow, hmmm.
Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!
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Arannir
Valinor
Sep 16 2014, 2:47pm
Post #5 of 28
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But that scene seems to take place in daylight in Dale.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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moreorless
Gondor
Sep 16 2014, 3:18pm
Post #6 of 28
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It seems pretty clearly connected with latter events...
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But that scene seems to take place in daylight in Dale.
As you say the location/light and indeed the fact there are Warg's present seems to pretty clearly connect it to events closer to the final battle.
The potential big shift that's always been possible of course is that Smaug isn't killed at Laketown but instead kept alive for the final battle and killed by Bard there. Was it confirmed the windlance in the town was the same one as in Dale? if Not perhaps Bard could use the it to kill Smaug there? there could I spose potentially be more than one at Dale as well.
If Smaug is killed at Laketown I suspect what will happen is Bard escapes from the masters hall, goes home to get the arrow from his son then has to avoid Smaug whilst returning to the tower to use the windlance. Knowing Jackson I doubt he'll be able to resist using the tower for some action scene, having it collapse before/after Smaug is killed.
(This post was edited by moreorless on Sep 16 2014, 3:20pm)
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leonmuse
Rivendell
Sep 16 2014, 3:38pm
Post #7 of 28
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I'm sorry but I'm going to go ahead and reply without reading your post first.
I want Bard to kill Smaug "The Hobbit" style, thank you!
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joec_34
Rivendell
Sep 16 2014, 4:16pm
Post #8 of 28
(1166 views)
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...if Smaug notices that Bard wants to use the windlance to kill him, and destroys it just before Bard reaches it. Smaug could then have a bit of a cat-caught-the-mouse chat to make sure he rubs in the fact that Girion failed, and Bard is about to fail too. Smaug gets a little bit too close, in his pride, and Bard throws the black arrow like a spear for the kill! I think this would be a wonderful way to tie in history, and highlight Smaug's pride being his downfall, as well as highlighting Bard's heroism.
"Happy painting and God bless, my friend." - Bob Ross
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There&ThereAgain
Rohan
Sep 16 2014, 10:47pm
Post #9 of 28
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Both AUJ and DoS setup the idea of Bard's ancestor missing the dragon, "If his aim had been true that day." This makes me believe that they still will show Bard killing the dragon with some bow of some kind, thus his aim being true and redeeming his lineage and deserving of the right to rule Dale again.
"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien
"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas
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Arannir
Valinor
Sep 17 2014, 8:43am
Post #10 of 28
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Bard killing Smaug with either a bow or the windlance is a story-telling necessity for Bot5A, imho.
It has been established way too much for it not to happen. All the set-up would have been quite redundant if not.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Eruvandi
Tol Eressea
Sep 17 2014, 2:56pm
Post #11 of 28
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I seriously doubt that Bard will kill Smaug "Turin" style. If nothing else, the weak spot in Smaug's scales is pretty high up on his chest. When/why would he allow himself to get that close to the ground anyway? If he attacks like in the book (and in the trailer, for that matter) he should be flying the whole time.
I just don't think we can look to the posters for that much of a spoiler because, IMO, they are more likely intended to just look cool, and not necessarily be perfectly movie-accurate.
"Home is behind the world ahead
And there are many paths to tread
Through shadow to the edge of night
Until the stars are all alight.
Mist and shadow
Cloud and shade
All shall fade
All shall fade"
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LordotRings93
Rohan
Sep 17 2014, 6:55pm
Post #12 of 28
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Would be pretty awesome! And a nice reference to CoH
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Reading Children of Hurin right now, and Turin is one of my new favorite Middle-earth characters. Such a complex character, and really enjoying his journey. But I don't think Bard will kill Smaug as Turin killed Glaurung, instead, I think it'll pan out like this:
Smaug's destruction frees Bard from his cell, allowing him to reclaim his bow and quiver, and he traverses the rooftops, firing arrows at Smaug, to no avail. He's looking for where Bain hid the Black Arrow, and eventually finds it (by help of Bain perhaps), and again, runs through Lake-town/rooftops to get to the Master's hall and get to the windlance. A very intense moment with Bard focusing in on Smaug, and just as it looks like Smaug will destroy Bard, coming in right at him, Bard fires the Black Arrow, and the camera follows it as it sinks into Smaug's weak spot.
Or, another endpoint will be the windlance/tower gets destroyed, and Bard just uses a regular arrow to kill Smaug, but the Black Arrow and windlance have been set up too much to just have Smaug destroy them.
The Hobbit: The Battle Of The Five Armies 12/17/14
"I know what I must do. It's just... I'm afraid to do it."
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
Sep 17 2014, 11:06pm
Post #13 of 28
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I am open to something new in a film when it is as great as this!
"And so they stood on the walls of the city of Gondor, and a great wind rose and blew, and their hair, raven and golden, streamed out mingling in the air."
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Cirashala
Valinor
Sep 18 2014, 6:41am
Post #14 of 28
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Metal arrows are often hollow to counteract the weight issue 
I'm an archer, and most arrows are hollow, in fact- at least the ones shot today. And it's not unusual to have a hollow metal arrow to give it strength whilst counteracting how heavy it would be if it weren't.
His bow is HUGE. A reverse grip can draw that long thing back- maybe not quite all the way, but enough to fire it. And said bow likely has enough draw weight (probably about 100 pounds or so (a draw weight is the amount of force needed to fully pull, or draw it) if not 125) to be able to fire it without shattering either the bow or the arrow. Conversely, a low draw weight bow would collapse with a heavy arrow, or a high draw weight bow would crush the arrow if it's not made for high draws (a weaker arrow- like one used for kids- that's a problem I sometimes encounter, as I'm only 5 feet tall (1.53 m) and with my short arms once I move up in draw weight it will be more difficult finding arrows that are short enough yet can handle it).
Plus, we have Bard demonstrating the reverse grip in a panel at a con or the special event (can't remember which one, or I'd find the video and post a link). Yet when he had the bow drawn against the dwarves after the barrels, IIRC his grip was usual- not reversed.
So if he doesn't shoot his bow normally with a reverse grip, then why did they bother teaching him it unless that's how he is going to fire the black arrow? The cast had too darn much to learn before shooting to waste time on stuff they didn't need to know, I think.
I guess when the movie is released we will find out for sure
But no- while I think your theory would look cool and spectacular, as an archer (and as a fan of how things went down in the book in this regard) I would prefer to see the windlance break and him use his bow as a last resort- a manifestation of his natural leadership, improvisation and cunning (not to mention quick thinking and rationality in a moment of crisis and fear) to throw down the plan he's had for decades (the windlance) and just do what he has to do to defeat the dragon.
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Sep 18 2014, 7:58am
Post #15 of 28
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I quite agree with you, Cirashala...
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I believe that video clip you mentioned was from the live Fan Event held in theatres last November?
I think you are exactly right - the "windlance" will be destroyed and Bard will fire the black arrow with his regular longbow...
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 18 2014, 3:48pm
Post #16 of 28
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Metal arrows are often hollow to counteract the weight issue I'm an archer, and most arrows are hollow, in fact- at least the ones shot today. And it's not unusual to have a hollow metal arrow to give it strength whilst counteracting how heavy it would be if it weren't.
Well, the Black Arrow here is less an arrow and more of a ballista bolt/quarrel. It looks like it is solid iron or steel rather than being hollow. I would guess it to weigh somewhere between 7 and 10 pounds.
We have heard of Bard using his bow in a reverse grip, which does suggest that he might try to fire the bolt from it. It might end up being one of those million-to-one desperation shots that almost always succeed on film.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Faleel
Rohan
Sep 18 2014, 3:55pm
Post #17 of 28
(930 views)
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Does'nt it "wobble" a little bit though when he takes down from the ceiling in DOS?
Does solid steel/Iron "wobble"?
(This post was edited by Faleel on Sep 18 2014, 3:56pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 18 2014, 3:57pm
Post #18 of 28
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Does'nt it "wobble" a little bit though when he takes down from the ceiling in DOS?
Does solid steel/Iron "wobble"?
You'll have to take that up with Weta Workshop!
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 18 2014, 4:14pm
Post #19 of 28
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Ever look out an airliner window and watch the metal wings wobble? Don't panic. If they didn't they'd break under the stress.
Same with arrows. In fact you couldn't even make the black arrow if it didn't wobble because the workpiece would doubtless shatter during the metal forming process.
That is, of course, unless "magic".
******************************************
"My friend,” said Gandalf, “you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonoured dotage; and her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on.
“Think you that Wormtongue had poison only for Théoden's ears? ‘Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among their dogs?’ Have you not heard those words before? Saruman spoke them, the teacher of Wormtongue. Though I do not doubt that Wormtongue at home wrapped their meaning in terms more cunning. My lord, if your sister's love for you, and her will still bent to her duty, had not restrained her lips; you might have heard even such things as these escape them. But who knows what she spoke to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in?”
“I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
And I’ll be on my way!
“If a land don't understand you,
No matter how many regimes,
Saddle up, do not wait,
Don’t waste time at the weapontake.
Muster out of that roll call.
Ride Windfola out to your dreams!
“If the house of Eorl is nothing more,
Than a barn where brigands drink,
Their brats and dogs roll on the floor,
Then you know what the door is for,
Muster out of that roll call,
Wash Rohan into the sink!
“I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
And I’ll be on my way!"
-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 18 2014, 4:34pm
Post #20 of 28
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Composition of the Black Arrow
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The head of the projectile would have been heavy steel. The shaft was meant to be wood, according to Alex Falkner, Props Model Making Supervisor for Weta Workshop. Aluminum was used for the prop (with the head cast in resin). Synthetic materials were used to fletch the quarrel because "we couldn't find feathers big enough." The Dwarves would have probably used feathers from the Great Eagles. Even the hero prop for the Black Arrow is described as "incredibly heavy!" Given the arrow's size (over-all length of nearly 2 meters or about 6 feet), I stand by my estimate of as much as 10 pounds.
The composition of the Black Arrow is detailed by Mr. Falkner in The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug: Chronicles: Cloaks & Daggers.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 18 2014, 4:42pm)
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Sep 18 2014, 6:28pm
Post #21 of 28
(913 views)
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(I think Rux and I are goiing to
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record your musical, live, and post it on youtube. Casting begins tomorrow.) (Rux doesn't know--I haven't even let myself know yet. Professional secrecy. )
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Sep 18 2014, 6:33pm
Post #22 of 28
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Even so, Bard handles it quite lightly...
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...and young Bain doesn't seem to have any trouble running with it... //
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 18 2014, 7:10pm
Post #23 of 28
(895 views)
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Please note in the upcoming Cirith Ungol number I envision the orcs in a tap-dancing interlude between stanzas 2 and 3.
******************************************
"My friend,” said Gandalf, “you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonoured dotage; and her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on.
“Think you that Wormtongue had poison only for Théoden's ears? ‘Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among their dogs?’ Have you not heard those words before? Saruman spoke them, the teacher of Wormtongue. Though I do not doubt that Wormtongue at home wrapped their meaning in terms more cunning. My lord, if your sister's love for you, and her will still bent to her duty, had not restrained her lips; you might have heard even such things as these escape them. But who knows what she spoke to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in?”
“I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
And I’ll be on my way!
“If a land don't understand you,
No matter how many regimes,
Saddle up, do not wait,
Don’t waste time at the weapontake.
Muster out of that roll call.
Ride Windfola out to your dreams!
“If the house of Eorl is nothing more,
Than a barn where brigands drink,
Their brats and dogs roll on the floor,
Then you know what the door is for,
Muster out of that roll call,
Wash Rohan into the sink!
“I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
And I’ll be on my way!"
-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 18 2014, 8:14pm
Post #24 of 28
(896 views)
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Even so, Bard handles it quite lightly... ...and young Bain doesn't seem to have any trouble running with it... //
Yes, but 7 to 10 pounds is practically nothing for a strong man to carry and not too much for a boy approaching adolescence. It is only incredibly heavy when compared to something like a normal longbow arrow.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Sep 19 2014, 2:33am
Post #25 of 28
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My chef's knife is a hunk of steel 11" long, over 2.5" wide at the handle, and weighs 8 oz. (using my handy food scale) with its tang and handle thrown in. To me, it looks like it might be comparable in steel content to the tip of the film!Black Arrow, which while a little wider, is no longer, and is decidedly not a solid hunk unlike my knife, seeing as it consists of two twists of steel joined at the base and tip.
I have a broom with a 4' wood handle. This handle (unscrewed from the broomy piece at the end) weighs around 1 lb. While shorter that 6', it also looks thicker than the Black Arrow's shaft, it's made to be aconfortable thickness for sweeping.
So I would guess a wooden-shafted Black Arrow 6' long, with a steel tip, could weigh less than 2 lbs.
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